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Fritz

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Posts posted by Fritz

  1. 13 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

    I wanted to be able to receive tsunami alerts on the WA coast - nope, I had to hope I would hear the distant sirens or the sound of lots of panicked running feet.  

    Here is the Ucluelet (British Columbia, on west coast of Vancouver Island) evacuation plan that would lead to the "sound of lots of panicked running feet"...

    Ucluelet Evac Plan.jpeg

    • Haha 1
  2. Here is an updated graph of LE2 towing mileage; the update includes responses in this thread or additional references that I found in the archives.  Data are summarized in this  PDF:   LE2 Towing Mileage (Table).pdf  

    For illustration purposes, I've aggregated data by general vehicle and engine type (see graph below).  The "n" value is the number of mileage data in a group; the higher the number the more reliable the average (although this case the number of data are insufficient to be statistically significant).  Nonetheless, these mileage estimates likely fall in the ballpark of what one might expect for these vehicles.  

    1145602684_ScreenShot2020-10-24at3_48_20PM.thumb.png.659046af3f55b80474befd8eabbabd52.png

    I found only three references to LE1 towing mileage (which ranged from 11.5 to 15); these are listed in this PDF:LE1 Towing Mileage (Table).pdf

    Bottom line: most folks see towing mileage with the LE2 ranging from about 9 mpg to more than 18 mpg, depending on vehicle, terrain, wind and temperature, speed, city/highway, etc.  

    In addition, fuel mileage for various vehicles over millions and millions of miles are compiled at Fuelly.com.  Data can be sorted by engine type, and include a mix of towing and no-towing, city and highway, etc. conditions.

    Fuel mileage is but one of many criteria for selecting a tow vehicle.  Nonetheless, I hope thread helps others (like me) for whom towing mileage is one factor in choosing a tow vehicle.

     

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  3. On 10/20/2020 at 12:00 PM, Fritz said:

    GMC Sierra 1500 (1/2 ton), 3 L diesel: Very comfortable, sufficient towing capacity (8500-9300 lbs), nice electronics, and peppy.  It feels like there would be enough pep to tow the OLE2.  The maximum payload for the vehicles we looked at ranged from about 1500 to 1720 lbs (the trick tailgate appears to add about 100 lbs), and a relatively small fuel tank (24 gallons).  While regular towing mileage might be better than 15 mpg, driving into a headwind might result in 13 mpg; 20 gallons at this rate (which leaves 4 gallons in the tank for margin) would take us 260 miles, perhaps a bit less the ideal.  Or perhaps under more ideal conditions, 20 gallons at 16 mpg would take us 320 miles.  

    Saw one video of a 100-mile towing test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBfBFxdy_A4) with the 3L diesel Silverado in Michigan pulling a 7,400 stick-built (i.e., large profile) trailer at 70 mph, with some 12-15-mile headwinds.  Pulled well, but the fuel mileage was between 10 and 11 mpg!  Not good.  I would like to think that the 2500 Duramax or Cummins, while having poorer mileage while empty, would not drop this low towing into a headwind.  Thoughts, anyone?  (Am I overthinking this stuff?  Well, yeah.)

  4. 5 hours ago, John E Davies said:

    Fritz, one option, if you can do without the diesel engine, is a Power Wagon 2500. Base payload for a 2019 model  is 1660 pounds but you can add aftermarket rear airbags to level the truck and in effect increase the payload, tho legally speaking you can’t carry more than the door sticker indicates. I would choose options carefully to keep the payload as high as possible, no sunroof, no extra battery or alternator, etc....

    Thank you, John.  We will probably stick with the diesel for better towing mileage (at least that's what I anticipate), and extra built-in payload.  We found the regular Ram 2500 with Cummins rides pretty well (presumably a result of the rear coil springs) on a short section of dirt road, and gives more-than-adequate door-sticker payload for what we need.  The 6-speed transmission seems to have a decent reputation, but we have found that on one tester the transmission shifted more roughly than on others (similar to a 2014 used model that we also drove).  We didn't notice rough transmission shifts on previous test rides with different Ram 2500s.  In our limited experience, the 10-speed GMC 2500 transmission shifts very smoothly.  

    One would think that the 10-speed Allison transmission would yield better mileage for the GMC/Chevy than Ram's 6-speed transmission, but a significant difference is not apparent in the Fuelly.com data.  Anyone have thoughts on these transmissions?

    For those of you with the GMC/Chevy 2500 duramax, does the unloaded ride soften up a bit over time?

     

     

  5. Nicole, my wife and I spent several afternoons over the last few weeks (including yesterday afternoon) looking at trucks to tow an OLE2.  Perhaps the following observations (and search criteria) will help you.  

    First, these are some of our criteria: (1) ample towing capacity for ~6,000 lbs trailer for extended northwest, mountain west, and cross-country trips (we've averaged about 2 months and 10,000 miles per year in our current Sprinter van over the last 13 years); (2) sufficient payload for trailer hitch weight (600 lbs), topper (~200 lbs), people (300 lbs), gear (~200 lbs), rock tamers (30 lbs), Anderson WDH if 1/2 ton (60 lbs), dogs (50 lbs), and perhaps occasional passengers (300 lbs), for a total of 1440 lbs without guests, and 1740 with guests; as good of gas/fuel mileage as possible; collision avoidance technology, decent ride quality with and without trailer; reliability; and ability to find service in semi-rural areas.  We would like to avoid the Anderson hitch, but that's not absolutely necessary.  

    Long story short: we're not meeting all of these criteria with any available pickup.  Some observations and opinions:

    Ram 1/2 ton, Ecoboost diesel: good reported empty and towing mileage, nice interior, sufficient towing capacity, but insufficient payload.  The maximum payload (based on door stickers on three vehicles) ranged from about 1,300 to 1,470 lbs.   Would be fully loaded without guests, and overloaded with guests.

    GMC Sierra 1500 (1/2 ton), 3 L diesel: Very comfortable, sufficient towing capacity (8500-9300 lbs), nice electronics, and peppy.  It feels like there would be enough pep to tow the OLE2.  The maximum payload for the vehicles we looked at ranged from about 1500 to 1720 lbs (the trick tailgate appears to add about 100 lbs), and a relatively small fuel tank (24 gallons).  While regular towing mileage might be better than 15 mpg, driving into a headwind might result in 13 mpg; 20 gallons at this rate (which leaves 4 gallons in the tank for margin) would take us 260 miles, perhaps a bit less the ideal.  Or perhaps under more ideal conditions, 20 gallons at 16 mpg would take us 320 miles.  

    GMC Sierra 2500 w Duramax: Extremely capable, nice side mirrors, nice electronics, no towing or payload concerns, comfortable seating positions, and compared to Ram 2500 w/ Cummins: quieter idle noise, more wind noise at highway speeds, more passenger foot room, more back seat room.  10-speed transmission shifts very smoothly.  Rough ride when empty (almost punishing on rough road), although I'm sure that it is smoother with a trailer on the back.  Fuelly.com data (2017-2020, with 1,245,562 miles driven) indicate a mileage of 15.2 mpg (which includes some mix of empty and towing, city and highway miles).

    Ram 2500 w Cummins: Extremely capable, nice interior, no towing or payload concerns.  Very annoying hump in passenger-side footwell (presumably to fit Chrysler's version of Bill and Martha's turboencabulator), although 10-way electric seat (which enables raising the seat) mitigates this impact somewhat (although that means buying the Laramie trim level).  More engine noise than GMC at idle, but less at highway speeds (active noise cancellation makes for a very quiet ride).  Slightly rougher shifting in the 6-speed transmission.  Smoother ride when empty because of rear coil springs (in contrast to GMC's leaf springs).  

    Bottom line: 3/4 ton trucks have more than enough towing capacity and payload, and give a very secure feeling on test drives (and almost certainly will when towing, as well).  Exhaust brakes are a good feature.  Anderson WDH not needed.  The GMC and Ram are less pleasant to drive when empty (in my view) than the 1/2 tons.  Towing mileage for the 3/4 tons might be in the 13-15 mpg range at modest speeds, likely less in the mountains.  The 1/2 tons with diesels promise better fuel mileage (14 to 17 mpg, perhaps), are comfortable to drive, but have less payload capacity (especially the ecodiesel) and smaller fuel tanks than the 3/4s.  Most reports from this forum are that folks feel sufficiently safe towing with 1/2 tons, although some have traded from 1/2 tons to 3/4 tons and are very pleased with the change.  I've seen no reports of folks trading 3/4 ton for a 1/2 ton.  

    Bottom, bottom line: we have not yet decided.   Leaning toward the GMC 1/2 ton or the Ram 3/4 ton.  Will also check out Ford.  I would really like for a 1/2 ton to be sufficient for our needs, primarily because of the easier ride when empty and the fuel mileage.  But we may go with a 3/4 ton.  I wish there were a decent 5/8-ton pickup, or that the OLE2 were a bit lighter (or the OLE1 a bit larger inside).  

    Hope this helps.  Good luck with your choice!

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Observations

    • Like 1
  6. Please, keep 'em coming!  With a few more mileage reports I'll update the graph at the top of this thread.  Hopefully this will help those that are choosing tow vehicles for their Oliver trailers.

    If you'd like to submit mileage, please respond with the following information: trailer (i.e., LE1 or LE2), tow vehicle, year, engine, gas/fuel mileage while towing, gas/fuel mileage while not towing, the number of miles over which you are estimating the gas/fuel towing mileage, typical travel speed, and the region of the country in which you travel (e.g., NE, SE, midwest, west).  I realize that there are lots of other variables (e.g., transmission, axle ratio, vehicle modifications, etc.), but accounting for these becomes too complicated.

  7. This may not be the right thread for this question, but here goes: I understand that the LE2 built-in solar charge controller won't control charge from external panels; it will only handle the charge from the built-in rooftop panels.  External panels need their own controllers.  So, is there a problem if there are multiple charging streams to the lithium batteries from multiple external portable panels, truck topper panels, etc., each with their own controllers?  Where is the "gatekeeper" to ensure that the batteries are not overcharged from multiple sources?  In our current camper (LE2 on order), the charge controller controls the charge from external walk-about panels (no additional controllers necessary).

  8. 19 hours ago, John E Davies said:

    Location, Baseline measurement, Low Fan, High Fan with compressor running

    Front dinette seat (phone on table) - 35, 68, 71

    Rear dinette seat (phone on table) - 34, 71, 72

    Left bed (phone on bed at aft end) - 31, 70, 74

    Right bed (phone on bed at aft end) - 32, 70, 73

    Standing under A/C (phone held at 5') - 32, 76, 78

     

    Attwood Air Command 16,000 BTU "equivalent" (rated at 13.5K), no heat strip.

    Location, Baseline measurement, Low Fan, High Fan with compressor running

    Front dinette seat (phone on table) - 34, 58, 63

    Rear dinette seat (phone on table) - 34, 58, 63

    Left bed (phone on bed at aft end) - 34, 58, 63

    Right bed (phone on bed at aft end) - 34, 58, 63

    Standing under A/C (phone held at 5') - 34, 64, 70

    I'm wondering if anyone has tested the 11,000-BTU Dometic A/A that is currently being installed in the newer models.  Is it substantially quieter (or even a tiny bit quieter) than the 13,500-BTU unit that I assume KatanaPilot measured as "baseline?"  

    • Like 1
  9. It is clear that some of you have a very strong electrical background, but I needed some refresher to better understand these lithium battery discussions.  So I’m going to try and re-phrase what I’ve learned from this discussion and Oliver.  And, cutting to the chase, I’m rethinking the value of the lithium pro package.

    Perhaps this summary will help others.  Warning: long post.

    Electrical current can be described with this formula: 

            Current = “I” (amps) = Power (watts) / Voltage (V)  

    By example, the current 11,000-btu A/C draws about 1,100 watts.  If plugged in to 120V shore power, the current to run the A/C is 1100W/120V, or about 9.17 amps.  If, however, the A/C is run on inverted 12V power, the draw is 1100W/12V, or about 91.7 amps.  Thus, an hour’s worth of battery-powered A/C would discharge the batteries by about 92 amp-hours.  Actually, the discharge would be a bit greater (about 2 amp-hours), because the inverter uses about 2 amps to do its inversion. 

    After this hour of cool air, the batteries could be recharged with shore power at 120V, solar gain at 12V, or (at least theoretically) the tow vehicle (at 12V).  

    Several people have commented that tow vehicle provides very little charge through the standard 7-pin connector, because the wiring is too small.  LifeBlue described a TV wiring modification to provide a greater charging current, but others (e.g., Overland) have questioned the ability of newer alternators to supply this current without damage.  Absent TV modification, this option is out.

    With shore power, the controller is set by Oliver accept a charge current of 100 amps.  At this rate, it would take a little less than an hour to replace the 92 amp-hour charge after using the A/C with battery power for an hour. 

    The battery could be recharged with solar gain, but this would take substantially longer.  With an average gain of about 120 amp hours (see Overland’s solar availability chart posted 6/15/20, using May Wyoming/Montana values), it would take almost a full day of charging (~120 amp-hours) to make up for an hour of battery-powered A/C use.

    The battery also could be charged with a generator to replace the draw of an hour’s worth of battery-powered cool air, but this, for some, might defeat the purpose.  Nontheless, a 1000W generator might replace the 92 amp hours in about an hour (at 100 amps/hr), and a 2,000W generator would do this same job in about 30 minutes.  (as an aside, I just checked the Honda 1000W and 2000W generators on Amazon: the 2000W unit is 10 lbs heavier than the 1000W version, slightly quieter than the 1000W unit, and only slightly more expensive.   

    Other electrical uses are also drawing from the battery.  This includes lighting (about 7 amps with everything on), electronics (camera, wifi, cell booster, tank monitor) takes about 5 amps, water heater uses about 5 amps, and both vent fans might pull up to 9.5 amps.  The inverter takes about 2 amps when in “invert” mode and about 0.4 amps on standby.  A composting toilet fan draws perhaps another 1-2 amps.  The furnace draws electricity to run.  My point is this: an average solar gain of about 10-15 amps on a moderately sunny day, with the trailer in the sun for perhaps 8 hours, will be just enough (or maybe not quite enough) to make up for regular daily uses.  There’s not much solar gain left over to recharge from battery-powered A/C use.  Similarly, on a series of cloudy days in (as is common in the Pacific Northwest), or when parked in shade, the solar alone could be insufficient for even basic uses over a period of time.  Question: does this reflect your experience?

    So now I get it: this is the reason that folks carry generators (which I’ve always avoided).  My hope for the lithium pro solar package was that it would reduce the need for a generator, and perhaps provide the occasional 30-60 minutes of A/C during a hot rest area break.  But without generator or shore power (or modified TV power), it’s hard to see how the solar system will keep up with even occasional A/C use.  It seems that after spending a premium for lithium pro system, the weakest link could be the solar charging capacity (i.e., need more panels).  And if a person is going to carry a generator anyway, might not the 2000W inverter and AGMs be sufficient?

    Thoughts, anyone?

      

    • Like 4
  10. Lithium Batteries in Cold Weather

    There seem to be 2 threads on this lithium battery topic (this thread and the one called "LifeBlue Battery Representative."  Dean and I posted some questions about battery heating on 8/27 in the latter thread that went unanswered, but I received some relevant information from Oliver that I thought I'd share.  This thread seemed like the better place to post.

    1. The LifeBlue batteries require heating when charging at less than 37°F.  The only way to charge them at temperatures less than 37°F is with 120 V shore power (or perhaps generator).  Shore power is first used to heat the batteries, and then to charge the batteries.  The batteries can provide electricity at temperatures less than 37°F, but they won't accept a solar charge.
    2. According to Oliver, LifeBlue recommends that their lithium batteries be discharged to about 50% when stored for an extended period of time. Oliver has included a solar cut off switch to turn off solar gains, so that the batteries can be discharged to 50% without solar gain.
    3. In the mountain west, temperatures can go below zero in the winter and above 100°F in the summer.  According to Oliver, all batteries can suffer the effects of excessive heat. One way of protecting the batteries during storage would be to remove them from the trailer and store them in a more suitable environment. This would also allow checking internal temperatures and charge level.  They would be lighter than other batteries, making them easier to remove and transport.

     

     

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  11.  

    3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

    My only strong issue with the design is that the A/C noise is horrible. 

    I assume that Oliver was putting 13,500-BTU units in the 2019 trailers (is this correct?), and  I understand that the A/C for current models is rated at 11,000 BTUs.   Does anyone know if this unit is appreciably quieter?

    • Like 1
  12. 57 minutes ago, Dean said:

    Hi Larry,

     

    In cold temperatures, when does the warming feature operate?  Is it constant below a set temperature or does the system vary to meet charge demands?  How many watts are used for temp control?

    To expand on Dean's questions,

    Does the warming feature trigger when there is a demand on the batteries, or does heating occur all of the time at temperatures less than some threshold (e.g., 37 °F)?  In other words, do the batteries heat when the trailer is in storage below 37 °F or only when in use?  

    If the batteries only heat when in use, then how do the batteries recognize "in use?"  

    Does the heating stop when the batteries reach a certain low-voltage threshold, regardless of temperature?   If so, what is the voltage threshold?

    What is the best strategy for maintaining charge during winter storage?  Trickle?  If not trickle, then...?  If trickle, is that enough to maintain battery temperature during cold periods?

    I understand that the lithium batteries will charge in 4 hours. Is this with a 30-amp connection, or with reasonable solar gain (e.g., 10–15 amps)?    It seems that to charge 320 amp hours (80% of 400 amp hours in two 200-amp hour batteries) it would take ~ 10 hours with a 30-amp connection, and with 15 amps from solar it would take twice that long….  What am I missing here?

    Are there risks associated with overheating batteries when the trailer is stored (or otherwise experiencing) temperatures in excess of 100 °F?

    Will periods of cold temperatures (e.g., < 10 °F) or excessively hot (e.g., >100 °F) decrease overall battery life?  What conditions or maintenance is required for batteries to last 10 years or more?

    Thanks!

     

     

    • Like 1
  13. 3 hours ago, Overland said:

    I can give you mine, which is for the high output 3.5 ecoboost, which Ford is using in the Navigator and Limited F150 as well as the Raptor.  I see 10 minimum and 13 max, typically 12-something, towing an LE2.   

    Thanks.  I'll add this in if there are enough responses to update.

  14. 1 hour ago, Landrover said:

    Nice charting. You are on the money with 3/4 diesels mine, Chevy  falls in that category 13- 16 mpg while towing 21mpg non towing. I just reset my trip indicator. At the end of the trip look at the results of performance and Mileage. There is always a plus or minus, depending  on the trip.

    Thanks.  Yours was one of the ones I charted: listed as 15 mpg in a post on 7/8/19.

  15. I've been curious about towing mileage of various vehicles.  So, I did a search for gas, diesel, and mpg in the forum archives for reference since 1/1/16.  The graph below shows the minimum mileage, average (mean) mileage, maximum mileage, and the number ("n") of references.  For vehicles with only one reference, the maximum, average, and minimum values are the same.  The references that I found cover a range of conditions (speed, terrain, temperature, etc.).  Because of this, and because of the small number of listings for most vehicles, the results are anecdotal and not statistically significant.  Nonetheless, in aggregate they provide some indication of what one might expect for towing mileage.

    The results are probably not surprising: (1) half-ton diesels (e.g., ecodiesel) or diesel SUVs did best, (2) gas generally engines fall into the 10-13 mpg range, (3) 3/4 ton diesels seem to get 13-16 mpg.  And, of course, towing mileage is only one consideration for selecting a tow vehicle.

    It is unlikely that I found all mileage references in the forum archives -- the search function doesn't seem to be entirely consistent in picking up the same references over multiple searches.

    I can expand this mileage compilation with additional data if the results would be useful to enough of you.  If you'd like to submit mileage, please respond with the following information: trailer (i.e., LE1 or LE2), tow vehicle, year, engine, gas/fuel mileage while towing, gas/fuel mileage while not towing, the number of miles over which you are estimating the gas/fuel towing mileage, typical travel speed, and the region of the country in which you travel (e.g., NE, SE, midwest, west).  I realize that there are lots of other variables (e.g., transmission, axle ratio, vehicle modifications, etc.), but accounting for these becomes too complicated.

     

     

    Mileage Graph1.jpg

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  16. 6 hours ago, Overland said:

    But...that's why the new F150 is interesting - since it has a high power inverter in the bed, it could deliver 120v to the convenience connection easily, just like a generator.  Much less fuel efficient and a good bit more expensive than a small generator, but one less thing to carry.  

    So how inefficient would you expect it to be if you're driving anyway, and just charging while traveling?

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