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Winter Temps and pipe freezing


MarkC
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This looks well done.  I took a different strategy with my modifications, which was to first move the plumbing out of the basement and relocate it under the floor behind the grey water tank. Then I had planned to run the ductwork next to the relocated plumbing. There’s is plenty of clear area under the floor there for both.

Then I moved the check valves for the water ports inboard so that they wouldn’t freeze, sloping the lines down toward the ports so that they fully drain when unplugged.

So that way I don’t have to worry about heating the basement at all. Plus I eliminated about ten feet of plumbing in the process by not running the two fill lines to the back and then forward again. I’m actually not sure why Oliver doesn’t do it like that to begin with. 

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1 minute ago, Overland said:

Plus I eliminated about ten feet of plumbing in the process by not running the two fill lines to the back and then forward again. I’m actually not sure why Oliver doesn’t do it like that to begin with. 

Overland,

Is it easier or harder to find/repair leaks with the original Oliver plumbing locations?

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I think it would be the same. It might be a little harder to get to the corner behind the furnace, but I don’t think that Oliver places any joints there, just a bend. One thing that would be easier with my setup is inspecting or replacing the check valves. They’re easily accessed via the front access panel on the street side bed, rather than under the floor of the basement. I don’t have any joints under the floor of course. 

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20 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Do you have concerns about crushing the overhead duct in the rear storage area?

No - I used the 3" pipe for that reason.  There's still 13" of clearance under the pipe, which is exactly the clearance getting into the outside door.  Milk crates fit fine as long as nothing is sticking up too much - same as before.

22 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Exposed steel in an electrical compartment probably violates RVIA codes, plus it is not good practice.

Good point if you mean the inverter and not just wires - which are everywhere including the curb-side.  I'm quite happy with the connections all the way through the wall into the street-side basement, so more reluctant to change that significantly.  Since I ran out of materials and time, it's never too late to just use 3" flexible duct like the rest of the trailer in the street-side run.  Would be easier to move around as well to your point.  Another option is PVC or radiator hose.  What do you think would be best since I have some options here?

28 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

If you have the good toilet (AKA Natures Head) you could use the unused 3” black drain pipe as an air duct and eliminate the fragile steel one on that side of the trailer.

We do have the "good" toilet, but I'm not ready to destroy anything yet.  🙂  This is all very non-intrusive work so far.

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2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

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I’m not a cold weather person. Has anyone considered installing the portable diesel heaters I’ve seen that are being put in vans and tear drop trailers? It seems that it could be a easy fit and install to use as a basement heater then dedicate the factory propane heater for main heat. Just a thought.

Grant  2022 GMC Denali 2500 HD 2019  Elite 11😎

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35 minutes ago, Overland said:

This looks well done.  I took a different strategy with my modifications, which was to first move the plumbing out of the basement and relocate it under the floor behind the grey water tank. Then I had planned to run the ductwork next to the relocated plumbing. There’s is plenty of clear area under the floor there for both.

Then I moved the check valves for the water ports inboard so that they wouldn’t freeze, sloping the lines down toward the ports so that they fully drain when unplugged.

So that way I don’t have to worry about heating the basement at all. Plus I eliminated about ten feet of plumbing in the process by not running the two fill lines to the back and then forward again. I’m actually not sure why Oliver doesn’t do it like that to begin with. 

Do you have any pics of these areas that you can share? Maybe start a new thread on your mod? I need guidance on getting air past the grey dump valve and plumbing so I can connect into the big waste line.

Thanks,

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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I do plan to make a separate topic for my plumbing mods, including the separate shower and new bath sink.  Soon...ish.

But here's some photos of the under floor area.  I ran my plumbing right behind the grey tank and tied them to the top of the valve, using it as a ramp to drain the lines the way I wanted.  There's actually more space behind the blocks, as you can see.  I ran some flex duct through there just to see and there's plenty of room behind the valve to slip it through, as you can see on the pic from the other side.  Also in that pic, you can see the 4 plumbing lines coming through.  The two on the top are for the outside shower, but you can see the check valves on the two incoming lines underneath.  I made a small block to fit the top of the drain and used that to air the lines down.  I've since insulated the rest of the lines.

IMG_1005.thumb.jpeg.eb8715ca94a39bd3fbd85c467478d63e.jpegIMG_1008.thumb.jpeg.8c044fdc06836cc5f335ae0181759939.jpegIMG_1049.thumb.jpeg.cf87fefb8dbdc2fa64a99e9152bdc977.jpegIMG_1048.thumb.jpeg.8ce28673ac11bad221a3fe933a6a9c46.jpeg

IMG_1047.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Overland said:

 I’m actually not sure why Oliver doesn’t do it like that to begin with. 

Their running them up high across the back floor does not in any way obstruct the space where a faulty tank would be removed for repair. With your routing they would have to disconnect and remove additional plumbing to get out either the grey or the fresh tank.

I still think yours is better.

John Davies

Spokane WA

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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Overland thanks for the pics, they are very helpful, did you have to cut any more access holes for the plumbing mods?

I have been trying to think of some sort of plastic tray or bin to act as a keeper for the shower hose, it is awkward to have it just flop down onto the plumbing.

It sure is clean under there, mine is a dusty mess because there was a massive air leak where the sewer pipe exits under the bumper, the rubber grommet was never installed. The low pressure area behind the trailer was essentially pumping it into the trailer.

John Davies 

Spokane WA

Edited by John E Davies

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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Not for the back.  I cut holes in the bottom of the kitchen and fridge cabinets and one in the front corner of the closet to get the bath lines run.

I completely agree about the outdoor shower hose.  It needs some kind of basket or something, maybe even a bag of some sort would work.

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Overland, this is one of your pics, cropped and enhanced. Can you tell me if there is enough room over the top of the grey dump valve to run an air duct? Some squashing is OK. Or would it have to loop back and over the cable housing?

7BCF0DF7-7EE1-4FBA-8252-034908B69470.jpeg.1aa815f0f4dc85dfad8678c66ceb2567.jpeg

I could run out and look but then I would have to move away from the fire and my comfy recliner. Thanks.

John Davies

Spokane WA

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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4 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Here's a propane-dependent solution I'm implementing to warm problem areas along the curb-side basement.  I have found that by default, the street side basement runs about 10 degrees cooler than the curb-side basement when the furnace is on.  The difference increases as the outside temp decreases.  My simple goal is to balance the basements in order to protect the street-side plumbing.  It's not particularly difficult to run another HVAC line down the curb-side and it takes advantage of the existing furnace.  

First, I just used a T connector on the back side of the furnace and tied into the line that goes up to the curb-side all the way to the bathroom.  Here's a picture.  I'm going to install a manual damper inline so I can restrict flow as needed.

IMG_2673.thumb.jpg.34994ca56b678c5ef5ebfc4159abc611.jpg

I then removed the flimsy plastic walls on the side and rear of the basement to make room.  Here's the view looking into the basement from outside after removal:

IMG_2686.thumb.jpg.b45b03d2cc39251204ccd48cac357f8e.jpg

You can see the plumbing running along the back bumper area.  This area runs a few degrees cooler than the street-side basement, so it's important to get some heat here as well to prevent freezing.  I used 4" dryer duct to run along the back bumper plumbing.  Then it's reduces down to a 3" solid duct that runs along the basement roof out of the way.

IMG_2690.thumb.jpg.3e6bfaab31bed27b923cfed499cb2c14.jpg

Here goes the 3" duct through the basement wall (pvc board) into the street-side basement:

IMG_2689.thumb.jpg.4d09d20511349f6e41f02647bddfef00.jpg

Here's the final picture for now, looking from the back of the trailer towards the front (you can see the inverter on the right).  I ran out of time yesterday so I just terminated the connection inside the street-side basement.  It's super easy to finish running the 3" duct the rest of the way up the black tank drain pipe to where the footwell for the dinette is.  I'm going to put some strategically placed holes along the duct now in order to balance out the temps on both sides at something reasonable.

IMG_2688.thumb.jpg.88119785bf68c201467a5b8712bc5a0b.jpg

Still need an all-electric backup, but I feel like this is a good start.  Easy, quick and takes advantage of the existing components.

Wow! Your "easy" is several orders of magnitude beyond mine.

What a great job!

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theOrca,  2020 Legacy Elite II, Twin, Hull 615

Tow Vehicle - 2016 Ram 1500, Hemi, 8 Speed with 1500# rear springs and Goodyear bags.

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38 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Overland, this is one of your pics, cropped and enhanced. Can you tell me if there is enough room over the top of the grey dump valve to run an air duct? Some squashing is OK. Or would it have to loop back and over the cable housing?

7BCF0DF7-7EE1-4FBA-8252-034908B69470.jpeg.1aa815f0f4dc85dfad8678c66ceb2567.jpeg

I could run out and look but then I would have to move away from the fire and my comfy recliner. Thanks.

John Davies

Spokane WA

I think at that space you only have two or two and a half inches.  It's just a bit more than the width of the plumbing plus insulation.  I mean, you could squeeze down a flexible duct to go through there, I suppose.  I think if it were me, I'd use a piece of semi-rigid duct to make the bend around the back of the valve, and then switch back to rigid, if that's what you're doing.  

What would be awesome is if that valve had been placed just a few inches out, and facing up.  

Edited by Overland
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11 minutes ago, theOrca said:

I just used a T connector on the back side of the furnace and tied into the line that goes up to the curb-side all the way to the bathroom. 

FYI, when I did mine, I ran the duct from the front of the furnace to a T at the first cabin vent, and then daisy chained the kitchen vent off of that.  My idea was that the bath vent could then come off the rear by itself and in doing so, might get better airflow.  I'll probably redo that since I've decided not to reconnect the bath, but just for the info, I noticed no reduction in the airflow to the cabin vents with that setup, even with the bath vent disconnected at the rear.  With it partially blocked off, I get considerably more airflow, and in fact if you're sitting with your leg in front of one of them, it gets quite hot.  

Edited by Overland
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Since we're talking about this, I think after experimenting with the ducts, my 'ideal' setup (excluding the bath) would be one vent at the rear under the nightstand, blowing forward, and another at the side of the fridge, facing the closet.  IMO, that would heat the cabin the most evenly and efficiently.  

Of course, I don't think that a vent at the front like that is possible with the standard fridge, and the rear vent would be in the basement.  But, if you start at that point and then work back to something practical, I don't think that I'd have settled on the vent arrangement that Oliver uses.  I think the kitchen vent would be as far forward as possible, and the rear vent probably going where the return air is located.  I'd put the return air vent on the frontmost dinette seat to maximize airflow through the hull space.  

Edited by Overland
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24 minutes ago, Overland said:

I'd put the return air vent on the frontmost dinette seat to maximize airflow through the hull space.  

I have considered doing that regardless of any other duct changes, you would have to install an access door where the existing furnace air return is located. I think it would reduce the nuisance fan roar a little, most of it seems to emanate from the wide open lovers just a few inches from the furnace inlet. A hinged door would be good, you need to go in through that hole anyway, to access the furnace for servicing the igniter and inspecting the burner flame.

0D82BCFC-1B27-48BF-84B2-2961A514E3DF.jpeg.6dd84b5f3a5c12d822bb3caed27d0fb7.jpeg


The return register could also have an easy to replace HVAC dust filter, but maybe the best place for that would be across the furnace screen itself.

John Davies

Spokane WA.

Edited by John E Davies

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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5 hours ago, NCeagle said:

IMG_2688.thumb.jpg.88119785bf68c201467a5b8712bc5a0b.jpg

 

Was your grey tank “travel valve” cable run over the top of the fender liner by the factory, as shown here? Mine goes along the floor channel on top of the wires. It needs more than thin silver aluminum tape to secure it. I really dislike how Oliver just tapes water lines and wire bundles to the insulation, it just rips and falls off, leaving the part flopping around  and the insulation damaged and unsightly.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited by John E Davies

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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3 hours ago, John E Davies said:

Was your grey tank “travel valve” cable run over the top of the fender liner by the factory, as shown here? Mine goes along the floor channel on top of the wires. It needs more than thin silver aluminum tape to secure it. I really dislike how Oliver just tapes water lines and wire bundles to the insulation, it just rips and falls off, leaving the part flopping around  and the insulation damaged and unsightly.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Yes - that's how it was out of the factory.  I didn't even know what it was until you mentioned it.  I'll keep an eye on it.  I ended up using semi-rigid aluminum duct.  I was happy to find 3" - I didn't think they made it but I found some at Lowe's.  It's a nice fit and I've put a few holes in strategic places with a screw driver.  I'll fine tune with my thermometers.  Here's the final (for now) product.  The milk crates still fit fine.

IMG_2693.thumb.jpg.4be5e3cb8c58a039c7d91c320fbfca70.jpg

Here's the 3" pipe coming into the street side.  It's attached to a 3" elbow and the semi-rigid duct.

IMG_2691.thumb.jpg.535aa2285ef06290561ff913b6fa9932.jpg

And finally, it follows along the black tank drain for the most part all the way up to where the foot well for the dinette table is.

IMG_2692.thumb.jpg.01cbbd853dfb372607adfd5ce3ed0616.jpg

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2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

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On 11/30/2020 at 9:27 AM, John E Davies said:

If you know a simple design I would love to hear it. I think it would take two bypass valves with lines going out the bottom of the hull .... or is there another way to purge all the trapped water from the two lines going up to the shower unit? You can’t just bypass the hot into the cold line at the shower or you end up with luke warm (100 degree) hot water. 

I rarely use that shower and would much prefer it to be ALWAYS bypassed, but not permanently removed. And I would like the valves to be conveniently located with all the others, under the curb side bed on the LE2, that way the lines going across the rear of the trailer would be empty too. 😬

Hmmmm, time to think on this. It seems possible, the bypass valves could tee into the existing fresh tank drain line , but it needs to be completely foolproof when you winterize, with no trapped water. Thanks for any ideas...

John Davies 

Spokane WA

 

I like your thinking . . . . I wonder how many actually use the outside shower much. . . . . and probably more in warmer weather.  

 

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

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12 minutes ago, Ray and Susan Huff said:

 I wonder how many actually use the outside shower much. 

I use mine all the time.   With two dogs, something always needs cleaning or rinsing off outside.  Sometimes when the weather is nice and we’re boondocking in a private spot, I’ll take a shower or wash up outside so I don’t have to prep or wipe down the bathroom or dry the shower curtain.  I found a suction cup shower head holder on-line.  I stick the holder on the outside of the camper so I can have two free hands.  Works great.  The one improvement I’d like is to add a longer hose.  The stock hose is too short.  Also wish I could close the basement door once the outside shower is set up.  I’ve gone to bed several nights with the basement door still open.  Someone posted a how-to on adding an outside shower privacy curtain to an Oliver, so others are showering outside too.  I use the outside shower often.  

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2013 Toyota Land Cruiser 200

2018 Twin Bed Elite II #351

 

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I'm with KenB.  When boondocking I use the outside shower for washing dishes if grey tank capacity is any question.  And, since I use a solar shower whenever I can there can be those days when the temps are too low or the sun is not strong enough to heat the water.  When this happens I simply turn on the water heater and fill the solar shower from the outside shower.

Bill

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2017 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5EB FX4 Max Towing 2016 Oliver Elite II - Hull #117 "Twist"

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I want to caution folks who may be unaware that washing dishes and leaving food residue outside in predator country (bears etc) is bad, and it is prohibited in many National Parks and USFS campgrounds. So is showering outside using scented soap or shampoo. Away from those places, and not close to a stream or lake, that works well though I dislike the wet muddy/ sandy mess it leaves on the ground. In situations where you can shower outside you can often do a slow drain of your grey tank using a garden hose run under a sagebrush, with your dump valve barely cracked open, as long as your soaps are not scented.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited by John E Davies
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"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel.

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