AC power in trailer via shore power on Xantrex only

[mossemi]

Good question.  The outlet tester is just that, a simple and safe way to test outlet wiring.  It will verify the outlet is wired correctly and indicate any faulty wiring with idiot lights.  The newer models incorporate a push button GFCI function which does the same thing as the push button on the GFCI outlet by creating a ground fault condition at the push of the button.  This action will trip the circuit at the the GFCI outlet between the fault and the breaker panel.  It can only test 120V AC circuits.

A multimeter is a much more sophisticated piece of test equipment that can provide useful information when testing and troubleshooting electrical problems.  It can test both AC and DC circuits of varying voltages.

An outlet tester is similar to the yellow idiot light on the dash which tells you to put gas in your vehicle.  And a multimeter is like the gas gauge in that it tells you how much gas you actually have.

Mossey

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 10/21/2020 at 2:12 PM, Susan Huff said:

I looked at the manual Oliver has in the University listing (they show one for both the 2000 and the 3000 inverters, but the link to the 3000 brings up the 1000w/2000w version not the Pro 3000.

Anyway, in the manual for the Freedom XC (not the 3000w Pro model), page 40, it appears the power display has just what I want - a flow chart!  Not sure I totally understand it yet, but at least it's a visual instead of electrical jargon.

Found the problem with the maunals: the links are backwards.  If you want the manual for the XC Pro 2000/3000w inverter, use the XC 2000 link.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:07 AM, Ray Kimsey said:

The difference is that I used a different outlet and a 10 ga drop cord rather than a 12ga. I think there were multiple issues going on. At first the GFCI circuit I used was acting fine and tested fine. Later in the day as time went on it started tripping almost as soon as I plugged the system in. The other outlet in the house was probably not a GFCI circuit. I think the 10 ga drop cord also helped with the occasional power drop. It has run fine now for almost 20 hours with no problems.

Could there have been an additional load on the troublesome circuit some where else?

Probably not the same thing, but occasionally (not all the time), when our camper van was plugged into 15 or 20 amp shore power, the onboard surge protector would shut power off to the van, giving a ground fault error.  One plug was suspect, but the one at our house tested fine.  It seems that all it took was to unplug and plug the shore power back in.  Almost like the error code needed a few tries to clear.  It was always a mystery.  The good thing is, if you have onboard surge protection, your RV is protected from things such as power under/over voltage, ground faults, and reverse polarity - at least that's the assumption.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Susan Huff

[BackofBeyond]

Well I think I learned something here ; The newer XC Pro 2000/3000w inverter and the newer Oliver's are wired completely different than my 2018. It appears the separate transfer switch in my unit is now integrated into the 2000??  but I did not realize how this affected the battery charge sequence in relation to incoming voltage values.  Seems a chicken and egg problem - low incoming voltage, shuts of progressive unit, default to battery power and subsequent drain.  Without a full 120-125  volt - on a 30 amp rated circuit - you have problems ??  Seems incorrect, I suspect it was a combination of lower voltage - under load - and a GFCI that activated on the surge, and then cascaded from there - my guess. 

 I haven't figured out why a 12 gauge cord was causing the excessive voltage drop if the only load was the battery charging - perhaps the voltage was on the low side at the plug (long way from its source) -  50ft  of cord - should not have affect the voltage drop that much  -   However, the power management showed 123 v - without a load. Hmmm. Does anyone know the low voltage cutoff of the progressive? - what's the amperage draw on the Oliver now all is working? 

A good multi meter would have helped in the troubleshooting - if you can - test the current draw - amperage- at the house plug end (Oliver plugged in)  - that would be an interesting piece of data.  A Kill-a-watt plug in monitor is cheap and effective.

I have not had an issue with charging on a 12 gauge, 50 ft. cord, but I make sure the source is sufficient. (I always test voltage and polarity at RV sites) Perhaps with the new units - the initial draw with the battery charge is above 15 amps ?  I should go test mine -wonder what the draw of the charge is - gonna have to drain the batteries first. 

The GFCI just added confusion - any leakage in voltage will cause havoc with these and a sudden voltage drop - under a  sudden larger load- could result in the circuit fault. Great human protection but a PIA sometimes. 

OK - I am just thinking out loud. Seems you have it in hand - but it certainly is good to know -

Always enjoy these remote problem solving exercises. 

[Ray and Susan Huff]

2 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

Well I think I learned something here ; The newer XC Pro 2000/3000w inverter and the newer Oliver's are wired completely different than my 2018. It appears the separate transfer switch in my unit is now integrated into the 2000??  but I did not realize how this affected the battery charge sequence in relation to incoming voltage values.  Seems a chicken and egg problem - low incoming voltage, shuts of progressive unit, default to battery power and subsequent drain.  Without a full 120-125  volt - on a 30 amp rated circuit - you have problems ??  Seems incorrect, I suspect it was a combination of lower voltage - under load - and a GFCI that activated on the surge, and then cascaded from there - my guess. 

 I haven't figured out why a 12 gauge cord was causing the excessive voltage drop if the only load was the battery charging - perhaps the voltage was on the low side at the plug (long way from its source) -  50ft  of cord - should not have affect the voltage drop that much  -   However, the power management showed 123 v - without a load. Hmmm. Does anyone know the low voltage cutoff of the progressive? - what's the amperage draw on the Oliver now all is working? 

A good multi meter would have helped in the troubleshooting - if you can - test the current draw - amperage- at the house plug end (Oliver plugged in)  - that would be an interesting piece of data.  A Kill-a-watt plug in monitor is cheap and effective.

I have not had an issue with charging on a 12 gauge, 50 ft. cord, but I make sure the source is sufficient. (I always test voltage and polarity at RV sites) Perhaps with the new units - the initial draw with the battery charge is above 15 amps ?  I should go test mine -wonder what the draw of the charge is - gonna have to drain the batteries first. 

The GFCI just added confusion - any leakage in voltage will cause havoc with these and a sudden voltage drop - under a  sudden larger load- could result in the circuit fault. Great human protection but a PIA sometimes. 

OK - I am just thinking out loud. Seems you have it in hand - but it certainly is good to know -

Always enjoy these remote problem solving exercises. 

The low voltage threshold in our camper van, with Progressive Industries on board surge protection and 1000w /Xantrex inverter, was 104v.  A real annoyance; perhaps this was the cause of the premature failure of our RV batteries.  

I understand the reason for low-voltage: to protect the system from a sudden spike in voltage that could occur after a low-voltage event, such as a brown out followed by resurgence of power.  Our home has a whole house surge protector between the incoming power line and the meter box.  It has never tripped during the oft occurring intermittent power fluctuations when tree debris falls on the incoming power source (I thought that was the job of the transformer).  Perhaps this device is more sophisticated and steps up the voltage when power blips off then back on again repeatedly?

I can see where a GFI outlet could be problematic: we have one in our kitchen that tests fine for GFI and ground, but a hand mixer trips it immediately.  One thing we did notice, with the PI surge protector was: if we plugged the van into a poorly grounded outlet or with an electrical cord that had no ground wire, the device would cut power, sending a GF error code (E4?), as it should.  After remedying the situation, it would take several attempts to connect power with a good outlet and grounded power cord, before the power would stay on; almost like it took a while to clear the error code.

I would be curious to see how the OP's (RK) trailer reacts when plugged in to generator power.

[GAP]

In my previous "straight Job" I was what they call a gaffer:  Lighting director on film productions.  Had my best boy and the rest of the crew was called "electricians".  We dealt with a lot of high voltage and one-off electrical situations daily but only had nuts and bolts, repetitive motion understanding of how power works.  My crew was normally expected to know more gory details than myself but...

When turning on most large draw items or multiple low draw units at the same time, there would be an energy spike.  A 2000w light normally draws around 16.6 amps but may take up to 20 for a brief period when first turned on.  Generators have two power ratings with the big one being advertised being the "start up" capacity and the actual "running" capacity being somewhat less.  Hence the need on smaller generators to have the soft start feature for kicking on the air conditioner.  Not sure about the applicability here but is it possible that the on-board surge protector has read clean shore power, that the spike caused by multiple systems turning on simultaneously could cause a fault?  Also, spittballing here but couldn't that spike also cause the ground fault protected circuit to trip?

In a similar note, I do know from experience that it can be probematic to have multiple layers of protection on a single circuit.  They sometimes do not play well with each other.  Seen it happen on shooting locations countless times.  GFCI circuits being fed through a surge protector, running through a fuse protected board.  We often would have to seek out non GFCI circuits for this reason.  Some of our lights backfeed quite a bit of juice through the neuteral and often made for a sad faced GFCI experience.

Forgive me if this is total babble but thought I'd give it a shot.  You folks seems more knowledgable than myself for sure.

[Ray Kimsey]

19 hours ago, Susan Huff said:

Could there have been an additional load on the troublesome circuit some where else?

Probably not the same thing, but occasionally (not all the time), when our camper van was plugged into 15 or 20 amp shore power, the onboard surge protector would shut power off to the van, giving a ground fault error.  One plug was suspect, but the one at our house tested fine.  It seems that all it took was to unplug and plug the shore power back in.  Almost like the error code needed a few tries to clear.  It was always a mystery.  The good thing is, if you have onboard surge protection, your RV is protected from things such as power under/over voltage, ground faults, and reverse polarity - at least that's the assumption.

It is possible but I don't think so. I have an electrician that has helped me out some. I am going to consult with him on the problem.  I would like to use the troublesome outlet rather than the one I am using now. The good news is still no issues with the second one. I have been gone for several days and just got back today. I still want to study up some more on the whole electrical (AC / DC Xantrex) system more now that I am back.  I much prefer understanding how everything works. Thank you for your thoughts and help.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

2 minutes ago, Ray Kimsey said:

It is possible but I don't think so. I have an electrician that has helped me out some. I am going to consult with him on the problem.  I would like to use the troublesome outlet rather than the one I am using now. The good news is still no issues with the second one. I have been gone for several days and just got back today. I still want to study up some more on the whole electrical (AC / DC Xantrex) system more now that I am back.  I much prefer understanding how everything works. Thank you for your thoughts and help.

I'm with you . . . . I want to know how things work.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:16 AM, Overland said:

So can we infer or have we confirmed that Oliver is now using the Freedom XC combination inverter chargers on all of their inverter equipped trailers now?  If so, what are are they using for the distribution panel?  From the photo above, it looks like it may be the PD-5000.  And on their non-inverter equipped units, are they still using the PD-4000 converter, or are they doing a separate converter and distribution panel to keep the wiring the same for everything?

Just glancing through the XC 2000 manual, it looks like it has an optional remote display available.  Does Oliver include that display with the unit?  

It appears that there is some rudimentary diagnostic info displayed either on the remote display or on the unit itself.  You should be able to verify whether the unit thinks it's operating properly via some hieroglyphics on the display, which are translated in the manual starting on page 39.  I'll take a moment to publicly shame whomever designed their icons - a fluorescent bulb to represent a load?  

I don't see any switching other than on and off.  More relevant to the discussion is this note:

So the unit does NOT have to be on for shore power to reach the outlets, but if the shore power isn't up to spec, it sounds like the unit won't flip the transfer switch to allow it through.

Or is the surge protector cutting off power?  Is there an error code on the Progressive Dynamics surge protector display? (probably in the attic)  Maybe ground fault or low voltage error.

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Susan Huff

[Jairon]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:16 AM, Overland said:

So can we infer or have we confirmed that Oliver is now using the Freedom XC combination inverter chargers on all of their inverter equipped trailers now?  If so, what are are they using for the distribution panel?  From the photo above, it looks like it may be the PD-5000.

I'm trying to get this information from my rep but  the PD-5000 looks like a really safe bet to me:

Image from the 2020 3D tour. You can see the logo with enough contrast. Only the PD-5000 has those features as far as I know.

This is the first mention of the updated distribution panel that I've seen on the forums. Thanks for pointing out the change. I was really struggling to understand how they had the new units wired. There isn't much to go wrong in these panels at least.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Jairon