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Interesting electrical problem


Overland

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My Victron battery monitor lied to me.

We’ve been out for a week or so in iffy conditions. Not much sun but enough to keep us going, or so we thought. Yesterday night when we got back from hiking our battery monitor said we were at 60%. Not ideal as we thought that we’d get a good bit more charge on our first full sun day in a while, but it was enough that we decided we had the power reserve to use the inverter and make some baked rice in the toaster oven.  Tasted great, but after eating and just sitting around enjoying some music on the stereo suddenly everything in the trailer turned off. And I mean everything. Nothing at all worked, even the battery monitors - the whole trailer was black. I checked fuses and breakers but the only conclusion I could come to was that our battleborn batteries had tripped their protection circuit. And that was exactly what it was. After a while they tried to come back on, but that lasted maybe 30 seconds and they were off for the night. We woke up this morning to various things beeping as the solar struggled to return power to everything.

The problem was that the batteries’ DOD was much more than the monitor was saying, and of course with lithiums you can’t tell very well what their DOD is just by looking at voltage alone, since they maintain a pretty constant voltage before they drop off a cliff at the end, meaning you’re largely dependent on the battery monitor’s algorithm giving you a percentage.  So tripping the batteries’ protection circuit and going from just enjoying a nice evening to zero power was quite a surprise for us.  

So we’re at a KOA tonight before heading back out. A full charge should give us enough for the next leg of our trip. Plus we’ve got a fresh tank of water and clean laundry. 

I’ll contact both Victron and Battleborn to try to figure out why they got out of sync. I suspect it’s a Victron problem but we’ll see. 

We’ll be out of cell range for a week when we leave in the AM so I doubt I’ll be able to reply to comments for at least a while, but I thought I’d post about it just because it’s something new and interesting. Happy travels. 
 

 

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Interesting. 

Blue sky gives us strange readings , too. Seems like all these systems run on algorithms, as opposed to true.

I get the worst monitor info if we have any sort of auxiliary power... portable solar, or 110.

 

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2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Overland said:

My Victron battery monitor lied to me.

We’ve been out for a week or so in iffy conditions. Not much sun but enough to keep us going, or so we thought. Yesterday night when we got back from hiking our battery monitor said we were at 60%. Not ideal as we thought that we’d get a good bit more charge on our first full sun day in a while, but it was enough that we decided we had the power reserve to use the inverter and make some baked rice in the toaster oven.  Tasted great, but after eating and just sitting around enjoying some music on the stereo suddenly everything in the trailer turned off. And I mean everything. Nothing at all worked, even the battery monitors - the whole trailer was black. I checked fuses and breakers but the only conclusion I could come to was that our battleborn batteries had tripped their protection circuit. And that was exactly what it was. After a while they tried to come back on, but that lasted maybe 30 seconds and they were off for the night. We woke up this morning to various things beeping as the solar struggled to return power to everything.

The problem was that the batteries’ DOD was much more than the monitor was saying, and of course with lithiums you can’t tell very well what their DOD is just by looking at voltage alone, since they maintain a pretty constant voltage before they drop off a cliff at the end, meaning you’re largely dependent on the battery monitor’s algorithm giving you a percentage.  So tripping the batteries’ protection circuit and going from just enjoying a nice evening to zero power was quite a surprise for us.  

So we’re at a KOA tonight before heading back out. A full charge should give us enough for the next leg of our trip. Plus we’ve got a fresh tank of water and clean laundry. 

I’ll contact both Victron and Battleborn to try to figure out why they got out of sync. I suspect it’s a Victron problem but we’ll see. 

We’ll be out of cell range for a week when we leave in the AM so I doubt I’ll be able to reply to comments for at least a while, but I thought I’d post about it just because it’s something new and interesting. Happy travels. 
 

 

Sorry to hear . . . . what a way to ruin a good day!

 

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Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

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2 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Interesting. 

Blue sky gives us strange readings , too. Seems like all these systems run on algorithms, as opposed to true.

I get the worst monitor info if we have any sort of auxiliary power... portable solar, or 110.

 

So what good's a monitor if you can't rely on it?  I guess, with today's technology, we just expect perfection and reliability . . . . . not going to happen 😠

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Interesting. 

Blue sky gives us strange readings , too. Seems like all these systems run on algorithms, as opposed to true.

I get the worst monitor info if we have any sort of auxiliary power... portable solar, or 110.

 

I got strange readings from ourBlue Sky IPN-Pro for a while. Until I figured out that not everything was running through the shunt. After a little negative re-routing all is good. The main problem was that the onboard charger's negative wire was bypassing the shunt therefore the IPN-Pro did not see any of the power going into the batteries from it. Check the grounds from your charge controller and converter/charger and make sure they go to the shunt before grounding out to the trailer. 

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Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

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28 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

So what good's a monitor if you can't rely on it?  I guess, with today's technology, we just expect perfection and reliability . . . . . not going to happen 😠

You'll be more likely to get it if everything is wired correctly.

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Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

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That's a good suggestion to look at when we install our new panels and controller this winter, Steve. Thanks. I  really don't remember much about the wiring.

The interesting thing is, our bluesky returns to normal quickly,  "resetting itself" as soon as soon battery capacity reaches 100 per cent. Sometimes it will jump from a 78 per cent reading to 100 with a short time on shore power, or full sun. We know it's higher than 78 from meter checks. 

And Susan, most of the time we charge solely on the fixed solar. With good sun, it's entirely reliable. Oliver doesn't use Blue Sky anymore, anyway, but we actually really like it. We have Victron on the boat pv system.

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2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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Thanks for the replies. It seems to have gotten back on track after a full charge. I’m thinking now that this was related to a different problem that I’ve discovered with my inverter, which isn’t communicating properly with the Victron control panel. They’re connected, but turning on and off the inverter from the panel doesn’t always work and the panel isn’t reliably showing the state of the inverter. Twice now I’ve checked to see if the inverter is off, and the control panel said it was, but the outlets were still hot. The only way to reliably turn it off now is via the switch on the unit. So I suspect that this has been a problem since we started the trip and the inverter has been on most of the time, with maybe that power consumption not being registered by the control panel. Maybe. 

Something else that I’ve noticed is that my solar charge controller turns off when the batteries are full and doesn’t come back on. So if the batteries are full at noon, with the fridge, fans, etc. running for the rest of the day, we start the evening not with 100% but maybe 95% or less. Maybe that’s normal, but it seems like I would have noticed that behavior before. There were software updates to all my equipment that I installed before leaving, so it’s possible that all this behavior is buggy updates. 

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On the boat, we leave the inverter turned off unless we're actually using it. But, our inverter on the boat is a xantrex, not victron, sadly.

I have read about the Victron shutting down when the batteries are full, and not restarting. But,  we have not really watched for it in the boat. I thought that was an older, resolved problem? 

Nor, do we usually use much power on the sailboat. Something to watch for when/if we install the danfoss backup system to the engine driven cold plate refrigeration. Our delight is that we have not had to plug in the boat to shore power,  in a year . And, when the alternator failed again in March, in a tricky situation,  the batteries were still fully charged, with solar. 😁

The bluesky algorithms have never let me down to the point you experienced  in your recent trip. But, if the weather is cloudy/low sun for string of days, they're def inaccurate,  and we also watch the seelevel monitor, and sometimes take readings straight from our 2 group 27 batteries,  with a meter. Unlike you, we don't have a lot of leeway, with just two 105 ah agm batteries.  And, all the readings are somewhat inaccurate with agm , unsettled batteries, anyway.  It can be really frustrating. 

Looks like yours reset too, with a full charge, as ours do with the bluesky.

2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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And, @Susan Huff, so many of our tech/mechanical problems over the years have really been user issues.  I'm not embarrassed to say so. Every new system is a learning curve. My learning highway probably looks like the dragon's tail ride, lol.

Today, Paul and I  installed a Phyn water leak sensor system for the house. His plumbing was flawless. The tech side was much more complicated. 

Sometimes, there are little details missing in the manual, or app instructions. I went through the app a dozen times, including faq several times, and then spent an hour on the phone with two great techs in California. Everything is working now. If I had turned on location on my android phone, and paired to the 2. 4 net, instead of the 5 band, it would have saved 45 minutes ... (that bit of info is not in the instructions,  anywhere.)⁹

Tech is great. When it works , and we understand it. And, have clear instructions. 

Even then, I  can manage to mess something up, sometimes. 

Edited by SeaDawg
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2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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17 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Tech is great. When it works , and we understand it. And, have clear instructions. 

Even then, I  can manage to mess something up, sometimes. 

And there are those folks who never read the written instructions, and complain when something doesn’t work...... I am referring to somebody in my family. RTFM 😬

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited by John E Davies
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SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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So, new update. I woke this morning to the battery monitor telling me that I was at 78%, but the voltage was 13.1, which for lithium’s is about 40%. Worse, when I turned the inverter on to make coffee, the voltage dropped to 12.5.  Not great, but it dawned on me that all this behavior would make sense if I actually had only 200 Ah of batteries rather than 400. Could two of my batteries have died?  I called Battleborn. 

Admirably, even though I got a recording and they’re closed for the weekend, someone called me right back. Their thought was that one or two of the batteries had gotten stuck in protection mode and needed to be ‘woken up’. Great, sort of - it’s a solution but it required unhooking all four batteries, testing them separately, and ‘waking them’ by hooking the bad ones to the truck via jumper cables and charging each one separately for thirty minutes. 

I carry a jump pack rather than cables but we found an auto zone on our route and got some heavy gauge ones. But when we got to our campsite, disconnected the battery cables and checked the voltages of the batteries individually, none of them were in protection mode (less than 1 volt). But two did read 12.9 volts (~20%) vs 13.3 on the other two (90%).  Another call to Battleborn.

The working theory now is that those two batteries had floated off sync with the other two somehow, likely due to my fault. The Battleborn rep asked me how I had the battery bank wired, specifically if I had both + and - leads to the trailer connected to the same battery or to the first and last. I had them both on the same one. He told me that when they’re wired that way, the battery monitor is only getting its info on charge state from a single battery rather than the entire bank, and that can allow the other three to drift out of sync. And since the voltages on lithiums are so constant, a small drift can have big consequences. In my case, he suspected that two of the batteries had gotten so far out of sync that they were no longer contributing. He recommended rewiring them and giving the bank an overnight charge, then see where we stood. 

So that’s where we are. Figuratively - literally we’re at the Joshua Tree KOA charging up. Fingers crossed. If the rewiring and recharging doesn’t work this time then I think the answer is that those two batteries have bad cells or something. 

Edited by Overland
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Good luck. Fingers crossed for you.🤞🤞🤞

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2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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I like Battleborn's logic regarding the working theory.

Good luck in getting it corrected so that you can enjoy the rest of the trip.

Bill

2023 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5EB FX4 Max Towing, Max Payload, 2016 Oliver Elite II - Hull #117 "Twist"

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Thanks. Actually I didn’t quite get it right above. The two good batteries are the one that the + and - are attached to, and the one on which the battery monitor’s voltage sensor is attached. It makes sense that those two would be the ones with the right voltage, the one being monitored and the one getting the direct charge. 

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I'm curious as to why Oliver wired your battery bank like that. During our 2013 build, I had them wire our 4 x 6 volt AGM's as two pair of series paralleled together with the leads coming off the opposite corners of the bank. Do you think they thought it didn't matter how the lithium's were wired?

Anyway, I agree that it would make a big difference (obviously over time) in the voltage/percentage readings. I hope your batteries are OK and this "reset" will fix you right up. I just finished a Battleborn install in the Outlaw Oliver. I got 7 years out of the Trojan's, but one of them finally gave up the ghost. The other three seem to be fine. I'm gonna hook them up to my Dewalt equipment if I can figure out a way to move them around.

Edited by ScubaRx

Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

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Steve, Oliver didn’t install my batteries, so the question is whether I wired them up that way or not. I don’t think I originally did, since I vaguely remember having the question in my mind when putting it all together. But when we had our trailer serviced in Santa Fe on our first trip to fix a few things, something I asked them to do was add some lock washers to the battery connections since I had one that had come loose, and I remember than when I looked at it after that he’d rearranged all my cables. And then I think that last year when I switched the cables into the box from 4/0 to pairs of 2/0 that I just duplicated what was there without thinking.

But I think that’s largely irrelevant unfortunately. After charging all night and day I just turned off the power to see what the voltage did and sure enough it fell from 13.6 where it should be to 13.2 within 5 minutes. So even without checking the individual voltages,  I’m pretty sure that I’ve got two bad batteries. No other reason for it to fall like that. 

Questions now are going to be why they failed, is failure common for Battleborns, and how easily/quickly will they get them replaced. 

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Sorry to hear that Jeff. I do hope Battleborn will live up to their reputation (and all our expectations) and get you back up and running quickly.

Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I thought I'd update this with the final outcome - which is, roughly 6 weeks later, I have two what look to be brand new Battleborn batteries sitting on the floor next to me.  I say 'look to be', because they told me that they repaired my batteries vs replacing them, but I suppose to repair them they have to cut open the case and then put them into new ones.  Either way, they look brand new and I assume function like new as well.  

Six weeks is a long time, though one and a half of those were us still traveling and we can certainly spot them two or three days since it was over thanksgiving and Christmas.  Still, if it's a month in normal circumstances to get warranty service, that could cause problems if you have travel plans.  The biggest time issue is shipping - they send you boxes, you send the batteries, then they repair and ship them back to you.  And while they pay for the shipping, it's not next day or anything.  In fact it was almost two weeks for me to receive two empty boxes, one of which inexplicably went to a neighbor.  From a service standpoint, they'd be much better just replacing batteries rather than trying to repair them, which would allow them to just ship you new batteries and then you use the same boxes to ship the old ones back.  I can understand why they wouldn't want to do that, but still - 4 weeks could easily be one.  

I never got a good answer on what exactly was wrong with them.  They told me that the BMS had gone bad.  But when I packed them up I noticed that there was something rattling around in both batteries, so something came loose inside each one.  And so that makes me think that the damage was physical and likely due to vibration or a single big bump or something.  That makes me less than confident that this won't happen again.  But if they honor the warranty then I guess the worst I can expect is a repeat of this last trip, which was annoying but by no means a disaster.  I have a strong suspicion that one of these batteries went out on an earlier trip, but that it took two to go out to make it obvious.  I say that because especially on the trip before this last one, it just felt like the batteries didn't have the life they should.  I'll definitely keep a closer eye on the voltages from now on and not rely entirely on the battery monitor's percentage estimate.  

One more thing - I'm running a test on the other two batteries right now since I noticed something off with them as well.  Another odd voltage drop when the batteries were supposedly at ~70%.  I'm going to separate them tomorrow, check their voltage and then drain them separately with a slow constant load to see exactly what's up.  This seems more like something that would be symptomatic of unbalanced cells.  

1986464880_ScreenShot2020-12-30at5_54_51PM.png.d1fdd4caeac521f11a2b79522f488275.png

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It is great news that you have received your batteries back. I agree with you that six weeks is a long time.  It would be great if they offered an immediate replacement or even a drop shipment plan like some other companies do, where you pay for and receive new batteries up front and then they determine any warranty issues and the refund later.

Having something rattling around in the battery is not good.  Are you going to or have you pressed them for more information on the root cause?  It would be good to know if there was an issue during manufacturing or if they felt like they needed to make mechanical changes based on your setup.

Mike

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Overland, I am confused by this entire event. Doesn’t your VictronConnect app tell you the actual internal specs - cell voltages and such - for EACH battery? Surely a failed battery would be indicated by a difference in internal voltages, and if the battery’s internal BMS had failed completely, you wouldn’t even be able to do this much. Are you using this app or a different one? This screen shot is for a Victron battery.

21C7B277-B0DF-41EF-B817-73FA2E636351.png.9b0911ab0fbcb258d79bedc5897c40b8.png

 

This Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor with Bluetooth built-in pairs perfectly with our <Battle Born> lithium batteries. You can download the free VictronConnect phone app to manage your new battery monitor directly on your phone!”

https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/victron-bmv-712-battery-monitor-with-bluetooth-built-in/

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited by John E Davies

SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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1 hour ago, John E Davies said:

Overland, I am confused by this entire event. Doesn’t your VictronConnect app tell you the actual internal specs - cell voltages and such - for EACH battery? Surely a failed battery would be indicated by a difference in internal voltages, and if the battery’s internal BMS had failed completely, you wouldn’t even be able to do this much. Are you using this app or a different one? This screen shot is for a Victron battery.

21C7B277-B0DF-41EF-B817-73FA2E636351.png.9b0911ab0fbcb258d79bedc5897c40b8.png

 

This Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor with Bluetooth built-in pairs perfectly with our <Battle Born> lithium batteries. You can download the free VictronConnect phone app to manage your new battery monitor directly on your phone!”

https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/victron-bmv-712-battery-monitor-with-bluetooth-built-in/

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Is that picture you posted of your equipment or is it a stock photo from the internet?  I only have the BMV-712 on air at this time, but I have fired up my new MPPT CC for testing which gives me 2 different Victron products to choose from within the VictronConnect app.  So from my limited experience I believe the VictronConnect app screen shot you posted would be visible from the Victron Battery and not from the BMV.  I do not believe that the Battle Born batteries provide individual cell voltage readings through the VictronConnect app.  At least I have never seen BB cell voltages in the VictronConnect app.

Maybe someone can correct my thinking.

Mossey

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Mike and Krunch   Lutz, FL  
2017 LEII #193 “the dog house”

 

 

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I'd like to know that, too.

We went with victron for much of the boat install, but xantrex xcpro 2000 inverter, which had to be replaced a year before we added solar and victron charge controller,  monitors, etc.. 

That we're sorry for,as all victron communication is so nice. But, victron lithium  batteries are not only more pricey, but a much more complicated install, from what I have read.

We're thinking the boat batteries will fail before the Ollie, so we'll be installing lfpo4 there first.

The Ollie will be a few years behind .

Edited by SeaDawg
Typos

2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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