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Xantrex Freedom SC Pro 3000 Watt Inverter Shuts Down When Inverting More Than 1100 Watts


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This new thread is a spinoff from the Door Lock Problems thread.  I mentioned the issue with the Xantrex inverter to commiserate with the poster who had the door lock issue.

So, here's the issue with the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 watt inverter:  it inverts as expected with loads up to 1100 watts (like the Truma air conditioner), but loads like the 1500 watt microwave cause a low-voltage shutdown after a few seconds (sometimes) or a few minutes (at other times).  This seems to be affected by battery state of charge.  Voltage drop when under load is normal; I am advised that a 0.4V to 0.5V drop under large inverter loads is normal.  But our 3000 watt inverter shows voltage drops from 0.9V to 1.1V when a 1500 watt load is engaged.  If, for example, the voltage reported on the Seelevel monitor is 13.1V, engaging a 1500 watt load will cause an immediate drop down to 12.4V on the Xantrex display, then less than a minute later, down to 12.2, then 12.1 and finally 12.0 in less than 3 minutes.  The inverter then does a low-voltage shutdown.

This limitation makes the microwave unusable on inverted power at State of Charge levels below 75%.

With lots of responsive help from Jason Essary, I have been troubleshooting first the DC side, then the 120V AC side of the trailer wiring.  I have found no loose connections which may cause the unexplained DC voltage drop.  This included removing the 300A Optifuse breaker from the DC side (by placing both the lug from the battery and the lug to the inverter on the input side of the Optifuse breaker.  That produced only a 0.1V improvement in DC voltage drop with a 1500 watt load.

A post by Tom and Doreen on the Door Lock Problems thread suggested the source of the voltage drop could be the Optifuse breaker, and that Lithionics specifies a different breaker, which may have a much lower resistance specification.

Is anyone else with the 3000 watt inverter having this issue when using the microwave on inverted power? 

What 300A breaker does Lithionics specify?  Could that be the answer?

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Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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Hi Rivernerd,

Thank you for creating this thread.  I *may* have a similar issue but I'm currently 2 states away from my Oliver.  I will check and respond to this thread when I'm home this weekend. 

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ALCTKYMENHNYNCPATNVTVAWVsm.jpg2021 Elite 2 Hull # 832 "Bucket List"

2021 F250 7.3L Gas / 4.30 AR

 

 

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I believe a circuit breaker of type JLE-1-41340-250 or equivalent is listed in the LItionics 12V320A manual.  @Rivernerd it sounds like you've jumped out the circuit breaker so this may not be the issue in your case.

Some high power systems have separate sense inputs which provide independent high impedance sense wires that are brought back to the battery  to monitor the battery voltage directly at the source thereby compensating for any voltage drop across the high current supply lines, I'm not sure why Xantrex doesn't do this, admittedly the systems that we have are less demanding comparatively but as such require close attention to all the accumulated resistances, wire gauge, connection resistance, grounding etc.. When I have more time I'll look further at my system.  I'll attach the data from the checks that I've made so far.  I'll be checking the grounding next. 

Xantrex.jpg

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Tom & Doreen • 2023 Elite ll • Hull #1321 • 2023 Tundra Platinum Crew Max • Cheshire CT 

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1 hour ago, Tom and Doreen said:

I believe a circuit breaker of type JLE-1-41340-250 or equivalent is listed in the LItionics 12V320A manual.

Thanks for the reference.  I just found a reference to type JLE-1-41340-250 breakers in a Lithionics manual.  The photo of that breaker suggests it is designed to be installed in a panel, like circuit breakers in a household electrical system.  The Optifuse 300A circuit breaker is mounted on a PVC board near the inverter, not in a panel.

 

1 hour ago, Tom and Doreen said:

it sounds like you've jumped out the circuit breaker so this may not be the issue in your case.

When I jumped the Optifuse breaker, the voltage drop was reduced from 1.2V to 0.8V under a 1500 watt load (the microwave).  0.8V is still too much, according to Jason Essary, who reported a 0.4V to 0.5V voltage drop when testing another Elite II with the same inverter.  But, the reduced voltage drop, with the breaker jumpered, enabled me to run the microwave for 5 minutes without inverter shutdown, as the DC voltage displayed on the Xantrex remote never dropped below 12.2V.  I stopped the test at 5 minutes, because I was not comfortable running a DC circuit with a 1500 watt load for very long with no breaker protection.  Didn't want to start a fire!

I am not an electrical engineer.  Do any of you engineering types out there have any suggestions for possible solutions?

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Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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2021 LE 2, lithium pkg, 3000w inverter

Below are screen shots of the inverter under load of the microwave running. The microwave had no issues for several minutes.

The second screen shot is the inverter settings you can use as a comparison to your settings....just to make sure. Battery low cutoff can be a potential issue that will shut down the inverter before you want.

Steve

image.thumb.png.2f290b8773d7e63b740bbb8f7695fe22.png

image.thumb.png.08b723045741a234bd58de7c88768d8d.png

 

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Thanks for running the test.   It is very helpful!

I will test my inverter again tomorrow with the microwave running, and compare the readings on the FXC control app with those you provided, then post the results.

 

Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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I believe that Oliver recommends that the Xantrex LBCO (Low Battery Cutoff) to be set to 12.1V for systems such as mine that have the Lithionics battery system. My system suffers from a significant resistance in the high current DC line between the battery and the Xantrex whereby the voltage that the Xantrex sees at it's input terminals is less than the actual voltage seen at the battery terminals which is a problem.  The result being that the Xantrex reaches it's LBCO and shuts down prematurely ( because it sees a lower voltage than what's actually at the battery terminals).   In a perfect theoretical world there would be zero resistance between the battery and the Xantrex and the voltage at the Xantrex input would be exactly the same as what's measured at the battery terminals, however in the real world there will be some resistance and voltage drop but the system should be designed such that the resistance is as low as possible.  To achieve this all the components have to be selected for the lowest resistance possible which includes selecting the proper gauge cables, low resistance circuit breaker,  proper grounding, and properly assembled contact surfaces. 

Given that the Lithionics battery has an internal battery monitor that sets it's "Never Die" voltage (the voltage at which the battery shuts itself down to prevent destructive discharge) at 12.0 V it makes sense that the Xantrex LBCO is set to 12.1V however by doing so it is extremely important to keep the resistance between the battery and the Xantrex as low as possible. It is possible to lower the Xantrex LBCO setting to something lower than the recommended 12.1V since the Xantrex sees a lower voltage than what actually exists at the battery terminals, doing this will allow the Xantrex to operate at higher loads for a longer time , however I do not recommend doing this because it masks the real problem which is an accumulated resistance in the high current DC supply line from the battery to the Xantrex.  

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Tom & Doreen • 2023 Elite ll • Hull #1321 • 2023 Tundra Platinum Crew Max • Cheshire CT 

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Yep, that is how I see it works also. Last year while bookdocking, my batteries were approaching 50% soc and Xantrex would not invert. Reading through the manual, I discovered the LBCO soft switch and adjusted the setting several tenths until Xantrex would invert. I was just careful and monitored the soc.

I think the value of keeping the Xantrex LBCO at a higher setting is to prevent an unintended battery discharge.....leaving something on or not realizing you're drawing so many amps. It would be unpleasant to discover the soc at zero....might invoke a few frowns...or worse!

You can experiment to discover the relationship of soc to LBCO readings on your system and then determine the LBCO to fit your comfort level.

If inverting for an extended time, I would also carefully put my hands on battery/Xantrex/other cables to determine if there is a heat build up issue. That might help identify any loose or corroded connection. There can be a corrosive buildup on a connection that is not seen without disassembly for inspection.

Steve

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Just a fog clearing question:

From the above, all your terminals are tight and assumed to be corrosion free.  

Remaining square one questions on the battery side are:

  • Are all your battery to inverter cables 4/0 AWG?
  • Are all your 12V terminals copper?

For your  1500 watt test, are you plugging it in directly to the inverter to eliminate any possible OTT 120 volt system from the test?

GJ

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3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Are all your battery to inverter cables 4/0 AWG?

Yes, copper.

3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Are all your 12V terminals copper?

No, the lugs are aluminum.  That is the way Oliver built it.  And, significantly, many other Elite II owners with the same package report no issues.

 

3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

For your  1500 watt test, are you plugging it in directly to the inverter to eliminate any possible OTT 120 volt system from the test?

You cannot plug directly into the inverter.  The inverter output runs through 12 AWG solid copper Romex to the 120V main panel, which has multiple circuit breakers.  There are two 120V circuits with receptacles that the microwave 15A cord can plug into, both wired with 12 AWG solid copper Romex:  (1) the dedicated microwave circuit and (2) the GFCI protected general receptacle circuit.  Whether I plug the microwave into either circuit, the results are the same.

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Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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3 hours ago, SteveCr said:

I think the value of keeping the Xantrex LBCO at a higher setting is to prevent an unintended battery discharge...

My LBCO level is set at 12.1V, per Oliver specs.

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Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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On 5/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, Rivernerd said:

I will test my inverter again tomorrow with the microwave running, and compare the readings on the FXC control app with those you provided, then post the results.

Well, I ran the test yesterday.  At 99% State of Charge on our 390 Ah battery bank (per the Lithionics app), the FXC Control app (the one from which SteveCr's screen shots were taken) showed about the same DC amperage being drawn, but 12.1V (as opposed to his 12.5V) under load.  Although the inverter was seeing 12.1V, it did not shut down during a 4-minute microwave test.  I expect that is because State of Charge was at 99%, which yielded a voltage before application of load at 13.2V.

So, I then put a multi-meter on the DC inverter inputs to measure actual input voltage under the 1500 watt load.  It read 12.24V under load vs. 13.1V with no load.  To determine what impact, if any, the Optifuse 300A inverter breaker had on the impedance, I tested voltage at the breaker input stud under 1500-watt load:  12.53V.  I concluded that the Optifuse 300A inverter breaker causes a voltage drop of 0.29V (12.53V-12.24V) between the battery bank and the inverter inputs.  This seems high to me.  It makes me wonder if the Optifuse 300A breaker is defective.

Has anyone else checked this out? 

And, do any of you engineering types see a flaw in my methodology?

 

Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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@Rivernerd, you are spot on.  My results are similar.  I did attempt to contact Optifuse for more detailed specifications but haven't heard back. I suspect that the DCR ( DC resistance ) tolerance specs of the Optifuse are wide enough that many cases work and some don't,  either that or there was a bad batch of circuit breakers.  

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Tom & Doreen • 2023 Elite ll • Hull #1321 • 2023 Tundra Platinum Crew Max • Cheshire CT 

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21 hours ago, Tom and Doreen said:

My results are similar. 

Thanks for taking the time to test, and report your results.  It is very helpful to me!

I recommend you submit a service ticket to Oliver.  Your results suggest that using your microwave even at 99% state of charge is resulting in inverter shutdown.  The more service tickets submitted for such issues the better educated the Oliver service department, particularly Jason Essary, will be about the issue.  They may, indeed, have gotten a bad batch of circuit breakers.  Jason has been very responsive, and really cares about getting to the right result for the customer.

I have requested a replacement inverter breaker.  I hope it is not another bad one!

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Hull #1291

Central Idaho

2022 Elite II

Tow Vehicle:  2019 Tundra Double Cab 4x4, 5.7L with tow package

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