dougi

I have refrained from posting here as I am a Casita not an Oliver owner. I joined this site to learn from other fiberglass rv owners because we share a lot in common. I posted a private message to the moderators but will now take a public stance due to your increasingly aggressive behavior. (1) Your post about weight to this forum, in my opinion was not appropriate, you should have been dealing with the Oliver manufacturer and allowing them the time to resolve your personal issue instead of trying to force them to answer on this forum. (2) It is not Oliver's responsibility to determine what tow vehicle you have, plan to have, want to purchase or don't want to purchase. That is your responsibility just as it has been the responsibility of all of the rest of us. (3) If Oliver or any other manufacturer post a base price and you start adding extras but do not have the intelligence to realize that extras are just that and extras add "extra" weight, that is not the responsibility of Oliver. (4) Please check your ego at the door. You are not asking questions, in my opinion, to get answers but to show others on the forum how "smart" you are. I find your aggressive behavior offensive. Wow, where to start? First, thanks for posting your opinions of my intentions (to show how smart I am). I'll refrain form posting my opinions of your intentions because I don't know you well enough to have any such opinions, I don't even know you. However, I will respond to your charges by the number: (1) I WAS dealing with the Factory when I found out about the extra weight of the base Oliver. You can argue that i should have kept that information to myself instead of sharing it with the board, but you can't legitimately claim I was not dealing with the factory, because I was. Actually, in and earlier and different thread, I was asked specifically by at least one other board member to keep the board posted as to what I found out from the factory about the extra weight! I am guilty of honoring that request. (2) I couldn't agree with you more. However, I feel that Oliver (or any other trailer manufacturer) has an to be of some valued assistance to their customers in helping them determine if their chosen tow vehicle is adequate to tow the trailers they build. Please notice I said "opportunity," not "responsibility." (3) Oliver fully understands there is a problem with the Oliver "specifications" in their web site. They know that the base weight of the Oliver is not as it is stated at 2,400 pounds and that the tongue weight is not 240 pounds as it is stated. IMO, that is an honest mistake, due to a shortage of time, on Oliver's part and they are working toward correcting this inaccurate information. They are doing that on their own time schedule, and I have neither said nor suggested that they have to do it on my time schedule, or on any time schedule. They can take as long as they wish as far as I am concerned. That is their decision as to when and if to correct that information. (4) I'm sorry you take offense at my posts, don't like me, and assume you know my intentions. I think it's obvious you couldn't possibly know my intentions, just as I could not possibly know yours. Maybe if you met me and got to know me you would feel differently. I'd like to think you would. Peace be with you, Doug

When you feel it necessary to personally reprimand or admonish a poster, please do it privately in an email, a PM, or over the phone. The quickest way to insure that this forum will turn bitter and discourteous is for moderators to scold board members in front of all other board members. This is a major NO No when dealing with people. Thanks for your consideration, Doug

I think it would be easy, helpful, and wise to post an explanation about the relationship between Oliver Travel Trailers and the Oliver Forum. I think it should be made a "sticky" post and forever remain at the top of the Welcome Forum. As long as Forum visitors are unaware of this relationship, it is logical for anyone to entertain the idea that Oliver Travel Trailers may be pulling the strings of the moderators and shutting down discussions that could reflect negatively on Oliver Travel Trailers. I doubt that Oliver Travel Trailers wants this, and an explanation of the relationship between themselves and this Forum may help to some degree to control that. Please give this idea some consideration. Thanks, Doug

Buffalo Bob, your contribution to this Board is invaluable. I know your time is limited and it is not necessary, or expected, that you respond to every Board inquiry about Oliver travel trailers or the vehicles we use to tow them with. If you could continue to respond only to the inquiries that you WANT to respond to, I think that would be very adequate and agreeable to all. I know I would appreciate your doing that, at your leisure and at your discretion. The culture and content of this board is not your responsibility, but it can make your job more difficult to perform, and it can make it more difficult for Oliver to maintain it's well earned reputation as a company that is ready, willing, and able to deal openly and forthrightly with any and all questions, problems and mistakes. That is why I was, and continue to be, concerned about locking threads and shutting down discussions, especially when they involve delicate issues that could reflect on Oliver's reputation. It is fine to disagree, as long as it is done without being disagreeable. I think we all need to keep that in mind. This Board is, by far, the most courteous board I have ever posted on and I do not for the life of me understand why some may feel otherwise. I cast my vote for your continued Board involvement, done strictly at your pleasure and personal interest. I will NEVER, and have never, expected you to respond (on this Board) to any questions or concerns I have had about our Oliver that is on order. I doubt anyone else has either. Thanks, Doug

Chuck, I have already done that, to your personal admonishment. I'm sorry you missed it. My new thread is in the "Oliver Campfire" forum. Thanks, Doug

Thanks for your kind response. I appreciate it very much. I have enjoyed and benefitted greatly from this Oliver Forum. EVERYONE (I felt) was behaving and posting courteously. Most posters are dripping with Southern hospitality and that is good. A few are not, but I have witnessed no one insulting others on the board, or being discourteous to other posters. has been courteous, in my opinion. I have been posting on internet discussion boards for over 15 years and have been a moderator on several of them. Locking thread discussions is a tool of last resort, to be used only when the thread degenerates into a series of personal attacks. I respect the role of moderator because it is a thankless and unrewarding job. I have finalized my Oliver invoice and work order and will probably not have many other questions to pose to board members. However, I will continue to visit the Board and I will continue to hope that the moderators will learn to let discussions go uninterrupted unless threads become infested with personal attacks, which I have never witnessed on this board. I HAVE witnessed it many times on several other boards I post on, and I personally have locked or moved threads to stop this unsavory situation. I will likely continue to want Oliver Travel Trailers to maintain their well earned reputation as a company that is ready, willing and able to deal with all questions, issues and mistakes in an open and frank manner. I know full well that locking threads and disallowing any further discussion can serve to help destroy that reputation. Thanks for your time, DougI

As most of you know, my wife and I have a new Oliver under construction. I decided to buy the Oliver, sight unseen, and sent them the required deposit to get our Oliver into production for delivery during the last half of September. This Forum, the people who post here who are so very satisfied with their Oliver's, and the open and unrestrained discussions that I saw on the Forum were major factors that cause me to decide on buying an Oliver, sight unseen. Since that time I have had the opportunity to talk to and exchange emails with Mr. Robert Partee, who I am well pleased with. Robert has given me all the information I have asked him for, and has been, I believe, honest and forthright with me. I did receive some requested information from Robert about the estimated weight of our Oliver Elite that dissapointed me, and I told Robert so. He did not take my comments defensively or personally, and he helped me understand why he thought my trailer would weigh more than I was anticipating. I shared that weight information with the Forum members, hoping that they could be as informed as myself regarding the the likely hood that their Olivers may weigh more than they had anticipated and that the Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) of their trailers may be less than they anticipated. Well that thread grew very large and contained a lot of good information and comments. IMO, that thread was constructive and helpful, and contained no personal attacks or disparaging remarks about Oliver Travel Trailers or any one who works for them. For reasons that I don't understand, the thread was locked long before Oliver Travel Trailers and Robert Partee had a chance to share with the Forum the results of the research into this issue in which Robert explained he was currently engaged and would have completed in a few days. Why am I so concerned about this? Please allow me to explain that to the Board members. I am concerned that prospective Oliver customer who visit the Oliver Forum will see this discussion, read it, and wonder what is going on. They will wonder why the thread was locked, wondering if it had anything to to do with Oliver not wanting any information that may be perceived as negative being openly discussed on the Oliver Forum. While I have absolutely no feelings that this is what is actually taking place, it would be very easy and logical for a prospective Oliver purchaser who reads this locked thread to entertain this possibility and decide they want nothing to do with Oliver Travel Trailers. I don't want that to happen. I think the Oliver trailer has been improved by adding this additional weight and I believe that idea needs to be reinforced by posting more information in that thread from the Oliver team. I think it is harmful to Oliver Travel Trailers to leave this "weight" thread as it now stands (locked to any further posts). I think that if this "weight" thread were allowed to continue uninterrupted by the Board moderators, we would see results from Robert's investigation into the issue posted in the thread, and we would likely all learn more about how this extra weight was used to improve the integrity of the Oliver construction, and perhaps learn about how the CCC is calculated and how and why the CCC may soon be increased to 5,000 pounds or so, causing the CCC concerns that have already been expressed in the "weight" thread to disappear. I truly think it is a shame to stifle any further discussion of this matter on the Oliver Forum by locking that thread. I think it unnecessarily places Oliver's reputation as an open and frank company, willing do deal openly and honestly with all questions and concerns anyone may have about their trailers in some jeopardy. I appeal to the moderators to allow this "weight" thread discussion to continue to it's natural conclusion, and not permanently cut it off by continuing to keep it locked. Thanks for your time, DougI

Chuck, I have no issues with anyone, and I am not preventing anyone from posting about pedestals in this or any other thread. I am posting in this thread ONLY because the other thread was locked and I can no longer post there. If you or someone else is willing to discuss my concern about posting issues related to the Oliver openly and constructively, rather than simply locking threads to shut down discussions, then I'll be happy to do so in emails, PM.'s, or phone. My email is: felpa41@mac.com and my phone number is 512-760-7214, I'd appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with any moderator willing to talk to me. I have no need to make the discussion public on the Forum. I'll await contact from a moderator. Thanks, Doug

And you would be correct about the good guy part, but incorrect about the caught up in the moment thing. I think we are all good guys and are capable of discussing things openly and frankly, and can deal with misleading information in a open and constructive manner, without locking threads. Now, if you are telling me that Oliver will not allow us to post openly and frankly on this Forum, that is a different matter. I hope that is not the case, and I seriously doubt it is the case. If I'm wrong about this, then please PM me.

I know I would never rely solely on information I read on the forum to make any important decisions about our Oliver. I would always confirm any important data or information with the Oliver factory before reaching any conclusions or decisions. I think other Forum posters are just as wise as myself, and would do likewise.

Mountainborn, I just noticed you deleted your bolded warning to me at the end of your last post not to reopen the thread topic again. Thanks! That was a good move on your part.

No, I didn't miss your comments. I read them. I read all of them. What I must have missed are the misquotes of important data. The data I posted in the thread came from the factory (Robert Partee). Other data posted came from forum members who posted the weight of their Olivers, which came from either the scales or the factory label on their Oliver. I'm sorry, but I did not see the problem. I guess I don't need to. Unless I am misunderstanding you, you want myself and every other forum member to refrain from posting about Oliver weights and tow vehicles. I don't understand that sentiment, but I guess I don't have to. I'm confused and disappointed about this. I was hoping the Forum would be a place where we could post and discuss whatever information interested us about the Oliver. If someone posts misleading or false information about the Oliver, I assumed it would be detected and corrected by another Forum member who knew the facts or by a representative from Oliver who knows the facts, and could share them with all of us. I suppose I assumed too much. I suppose I was dead wrong.

Today I asked Robert if Oliver had looked into other mounting options for the street side table for two. I wanted to know because I will sleep on the street side twin bed and will have to convert it back and forth between a table and a bed every day we are in our Oliver. The rear of our trailer will not have the big table but the twin bed option. My wife will sleep there. He said they were looking into it but had come up with nothing better at this time. So, does the side table for two have the same issues the rear table for four has? Are the pedestals the same length and diameter for both tables? BTW, why was it considered necessary to lock the "Weight" thread? I think Robert wanted to get back to all of us on the Oliver forum regarding this matter, once he got the information calculated. I guess he can start a new thread. As RVers, I don't think anything is more important to our safety (and others safety) than towing our RV's responsibly, within the weight limitations of our RV's and our tow vehicles. I think forum discussions along those lines are to be encouraged, not discouraged. Am I wrong?

Here is something i found about this topic. Pay particular attention to the paragraph with the word "manslaughter" in it: "Searching the web, the message forums are littered with questions about “how much truck do I need?” with responses that all too often sound a little bit like “I tow a 44′ 18,000lb travel trailer with my Ford Minivan and I haven’t had any problems!” Let’s do this right. First, some terminology: GVWR - Gross Vehicle Weight - The maximum weight of vehicle with all cargo, passengers and gear GCWR - Gross Combined Weight Rating - The maximum combined weight of loaded truck and trailer together GAWR - Gross Axle Weight Rating - Each axle has a rating for how much weight it can handle Tongue Weight - The amount of weight the trailer puts on the truck either via a bumper hitch or a Gooseneck/Fifth-wheel hitch Curb/Dry Weight - The weight according to the manufacturer which is 99% guaranteed to be less than the amount it actually weighs The following list is a carefully researched and validated method for determining what kind of truck you need and how much you can tow. No other method is valid. Although you, your cousin, your buddy or a friend of your friend might have towed for years without a problem or voiding a warranty, pay attention to #1 and judge how much your life is worth. If you overload your truck or trailer and are involved in an accident with loss of life, you may be charged with manslaughter even if it is not your fault. I have only read stories online of this actually happening but legally it is clear that it could happen, probably more so if you aren’t properly licensed. TAG trailers (attach to the rear bumper) want approximately 10-15% of the total trailer weight pushing down on the hitch where a Gooseneck/Fifth-wheel trailer (attaches in the back of the truck bed) wants between 15 and 25% of the total weight pushing down on the truck. Therefore, we can calculate backwards: for a TAG trailer, 1000lbs of tongue weight is equal to 1000#/10% = 10,000lbs of trailer provided we meet the rest of the requirements. There is one, and only one way to accurately determine how much you can tow: you must weigh your truck loaded as you will actually use it! Curb weights mean nothing! My Dodge Ram 4×2 Turbo Diesel is listed at 6311lbs with a 150lb driver. The truck actually weighs 6630lbs. Using our above calculation, that 319lb reduction in capacity translates to a 2,126lb reduction in trailer weight (@ 15%)! The weight of the truck empty is pretty useless. If, in my case, you’re going to use it in order to tow two or three people and gear for a weekend, you need to load it up and hit the scales in that configuration. You can estimate, but again, estimating wrong could in the most extreme case mean going to prison. You can find scales in the yellow pages and almost every landfill has one that you can use freely as you drive through. Pull halfway on the scales and weigh the front axle, then pull fully on and get the complete weight, then drive half-off and get the rear axle weight." http://www.ghidinelli.com/2005/03/15/towing-trailers

Mountainborn, I understand completely. Many people do not want to do the research and know the facts, because that's not fun for them. However, for me it is fun to do my homework and know the facts about such things. I want to know if I am towing within the specified limitations of my TV and my RV, or not. Other people could care less. It's different strokes for different folks. Once your Oliver is built and loaded, all it takes to know the facts is to weigh the trailer and the tongue, something that's not all that difficult or time consuming to do, but something that very few RV owners ever do. I don't mind being in the minority. If I decide to try to tow with my RAV4 this information is critical, due to the marginal towing capacity of the RAV4. If I tow with the big dually or another full size pick up, the information is not that important because of the cushion I would have with the towing capacity.

Buffalo Bob, the information that is the most needed by your customers and potential customers is an accurate (within 50 pounds either way) dry weight of a "base" Oliver. You can define "base" any way you like, but I suggest that it be keyed to either a Classic or an Elite, without any options or deletions of standard equipment. This would include the weight of the 5,200 pound rated axle, the weight of the inner and outer shells as you are currently building them, plus all standard equipment. From that weight, the weight of each options can be added and the weight of each deletions can be deducted, to arrive at an estimated as-built dry weight that is within 100 pounds of actual. Obviously, you would need to get a fairly accurate weight for the bottom interior shell of a unit with and without the twin bed option in order to deal with that option. I think you should ask every Oliver customer if they are planning on towing their Oliver with a specific vehicle, and both Oliver and the customer should be aware of that vehicle's tow rating. If the tow rating on the vehicle is lower than the projected as-built dry weight of the Oliver, plus a full tank of fresh water, plus the weight of the 6 gallons of water in the water heater, plus the weight of the propane in the propane bottles when full, plus the weight of any customer added equipment (like a generator) that will be placed in or on the Oliver, plus an estimated weight of all other cargo (this would depend on the use of the trailer) of say 200-400 pounds, then the customer should be warned about their choice of tow vehicle. If all this adds up to a total weight of X pounds, then any customer with a tow vehicle with a tow rating of less than X should be forewarned by Oliver that their tow vehicle is probably inadequate to tow the Oliver they have selected. The current base weight you have on your web site (2,400 pounds) can be very misleading to any prospective customer. That weight can set up some very unrealistic expectations with regard to a adequate tow vehicle for the Oliver, especially if it is an Elite with a few other options. If I were you, that 2,400 pound Oliver "specification" would be the very first thing I would address in my efforts to communicate better with your customers and prospective customers regarding the weight of Oliver trailers. I think that piece of information is at the root of this weight issue. Whatever that figure needs to be revised to should also be annotated with the explanation of which Oliver model (Classic or Elite) it applies to and that no options have been figured in that weight. If I were Oliver, I would put a base weight (dry weight) in the specifications sheet for both models, along with the Cargo Carrying Capacity and Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of each model.

Dumping grey water is not ecologically harmful. All it is is fresh water and some soap. It's good for the ground and plants. Black water...NO (we all know that). We are both in the same boat regarding the weight of the Oliver. All we can do is to express our displeasure with Oliver, and I've already told Robert I was disappointed to learn of this information only after the commitment to buy had been made, and other towing equipment had been ordered and received for the RAV4. However, once we adjust ourselves to the issue, the good news is that we have a more superior trailer than we first thought. I am already making the necessary adjustments, and they aren't cheap. Starting tomorrow, GM is extending its employee pricing to the public and giving added rebates on all their 2008 inventory. I may end up buying a new 2008 Silverado with a sticker price of $32,500 for only $23,000 or so; something I would not have even considered prior to learning of this weight issue. Cherie, you are justified in your concerns, but there is not much that can be done about it, other than make the necessary adjustments. If you think of something new let us know. My thinking is that if your Jeep can tow your Oliver to your satisfaction, then your Oliver will probably be fine, even if it weighs over 4,000 pounds on occasions. If we experience strength of materials problems regarding the weight in our trailers maybe Oliver will take care of them. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

Cherie, with a 5,000 pound rated axle mounted in your Oliver, I don't understand why the axle is your concern. I thought your concern was the difference between the 4,000 pound GVWR of the Oliver and the actual weight of your Oliver, as you and Chris have it loaded, with a full fresh water tank. Once you fill your fresh water tank, I suppose you feel that your Oliver will weigh in excess of 4,000 pounds, due primarily to the 32.5 gallons of water and the Honda generator siting on your tongue, along with everything else you have packed into your Oliver. What I am suggesting is that you could bring down the weight of your Oliver to below the 4,000 pound GVWR limit by carrying some of your fresh water in your Jeep rather than in the Oliver's fresh water tank. I don't think there is anything else you could do at this time to keep your Oliver under the GVWR of 4,000 pounds without doing that. In the long term, perhaps there are some modifications that could be made to your Oliver to increase its GVWR to above 4,000 pounds, but I can't speak to that issue, and that is obviously not a short-term solution for you and Chris at this time. Surely you're not telling me that you think your Oliver has been loaded to the point where the 5,000 pound limit on the axle is being exceeded, are you? Good luck.

Mountainborn, I appreciate your input on this weight/towing issue. It gives me more hope that I can tow our Oliver with the RAV4, and save on fuel with at least some of our trips in the Oliver. I think your Jeep and our RAV4 are both rated to tow 3,500 pounds. However, it's time for you and Butcherknife to do some slowing down on the roads. Take it a little easier and slower. Enjoy the view more. I'm just kidding you, you should do what ever pleases you, but be mindful that if you have an accident, you may have significant legal exposures, due to your speed, your weight, and/or your towing capacities. When other individuals get hurt or killed they thoroughly examine their legal options, and your speed, weight, and towing capacities will be the first place they look for their legal remedies under law. Insurance may not save you if you are towing over your limits. Good luck!

I understand your concerns, Cherie, but if you want to live within the limitations of your Oliver, the only way I can see to do it is to carry some of your water in your tow vehicle rather than in your Oliver, if the water causes you to be over the CCC of your Oliver. However, that just might shift the problem to the CCC (or the GVWR) of your tow vehicle. I know you will research this and see exactly how best to achieve your goals. You need to weigh your Oliver, and the tongue with it fully loaded with water (and everything else you will take to Burning Man) and see where that leaves you, with regard to both the Oliver's CCC and your Jeep's capacities. If it doesn't work out within the limits you have to deal with, you will either have to take your chances with with what you have or get a larger capacity tow vehicle. For those fortunate enough to have a full size pickup with a towing capacity in the 7-9 thousand pound range, the obvious solution is to carry most of your fresh water in containers in the bed of your truck. These issues are why I wanted to get the facts about the weight of the Oliver. I will have no problem towing with our big dually, but I likely will with the RAV4. I very much wanted to tow with the RAV4, but now I have to change my plans. I think the RAV4 can still be used, but only when I don't have steep grades, bad roads, or lots of weight to contend with. I'll have to leave my generator and some other gear at home if I tow with the RAV4. If I tow with the big dually, I can take almost anything I want, as long as I put it in the bed of the truck, but my travel costs go up considerably with that vehicle. I really think that with the life style you and Chris lead (active and off-road) you will eventually want to get yourselves a 4WD, full size, long bed, V8 pickup so you can take all sorts of toys with you, like canoe's, kayak's, mountain bikes, back packs, etc. Have fun and be safe at Burning Man and come see us when you are in our area. If you have the time, please let me know how your solar panels and your other electrical system is working out for you. I'm getting the same setup as yours, except without the big inverter and with two 6V golf cart batteries. I am getting a Xantrex 40 Amp smart charger, however, just without the inverter.

I would advise anyone to do their best not to tow with a full tank of water in the fresh water tank. If you have to, buy yourself an inflatable water container and fill your tank after you arrive at the campground, even if you have to go back a few miles to get your water. It saves fuel, and it's just safer to minimize weight while towing, especially on small trailers with relatively large fresh water tanks, like the Oliver. Normally, the only time I will tow with a full tank of water is to my camping site from the fresh water fill elsewhere in the campground. Damn few small trailers have 30 plus gallon fresh water tanks as does the Oliver. It's easy to get buy the first night of camping with only 10 gallons of fresh water, or less, in your fresh water tank, plus the six gallons in the hot water heater. On the rare occasion where you DO have to tow with a full tank of fresh water, get your water as close to your campsite destination as possible, to minimize your towing distance with a full fresh water tank. NEVER have full grey/black water tanks and fill up your fresh water tank before leaving your campground to dump at a dump site several miles away.

Cherie, unless you tow your Oliver with a full fresh water tank, I don't think you would exceed your trailer's GVWR of 4,000 pounds (is that what the tag on your trailer has for the GVWR?).

I certainly don't fault Oliver for improving their trailer by adding more weight in the form of a stronger axle, frame and shell. I appreciate the improvements. However, I do think there is room for both Oliver and their customers to be more mindful of weight considerations, by discussing every added or deleted option in terms of added or deleted weight as well as added or deleted cost, and by revealing the as built base weight of the Elite or the Classic, depending on which unit the customer is starting with. I had a very good idea of the weight issues simply because of my prior RV experience, but many customers are lacking that perspective. One of the reasons I added special propane tanks and did not go up to the 30 pound tanks was to lighten the weight on the tongue and trailer. Same for the spare, opting for the lighter weight alloy wheel. Several standard features and options are very light weight, but expensive (rear view camera, satellite dome, inverters, smart chargers, solar panels, cell phone signal amplifier and repeater, generator quick connect), but they do add up. The real weight hogs are the air conditioner, microwave/convection oven, awning, second battery, twin bed option, dual pane windows, and twin 30 pound propane tanks.

The good news is that no one that we know of has had any problems with their trailer weight. The axle, the frame and the shells have all been beefed up. In my mind, the only issue is with the adequacy of our tow vehicles. Short of putting rocks in the trailer or traveling with full fresh water and or holding tanks, there is not enough room to put all that much weight inside the unit. If I were full timing in the Oliver, I would use a full size V8 pickup, with a shell as my TV.

I wonder how the GVWR for a trailer is established? I suppose it takes some engineering calculations (strength of materials)? I don't know if it is established by the manufacturer and certified by some independent party. It may not be independently certified. I also wonder what the weakest link in the GVWR calculation would be for the Oliver? My guess is it would be the frame, then the tires and wheels. With a 5,000 pound rated axle it would not be that. It would also be helpful to our understanding of weight distribution if we knew the sequence of the holding tanks, say from front to back. In what order are the tanks (fresh water, grey water, and black water) located within the frame?