GAP
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Posts posted by GAP
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On 3/5/2023 at 12:45 AM, Coastal Aggie said:
Do you think adding the extra insulation would be sufficient for a week of single digits at night and 20's during the day enough that i can actually use the water system? I can of course leave all the cabinets open as well but its not the end of the world if i need to blow out and winterize the system until it warms up a bit. I do carry a portable compressor already and i can just fill a jug in my friends house if i need to.
No i dont have the truma unfortunately, now that i know more about it i may end up having it retrofit in someday. But Ill definitely be taking the shower idea. im not big on the outside shower idea to begin with.
I'm with TopGun on this. We just got back from a trip in Quebec. Not to get into gory details but we've opened the entire basement up to heated airflow and done other mods to assure all the pex lines are kept above 50 degrees even when it's below 0. Our water system still froze in specific spots most notably where they are in contact with the existing reflectix insulation which seems to do OK with radiational heat loss but not so good in conductive situations. I suspect the tanks sitting directly on a single layer of reflectix against the bottom of the trailer, would be super susceptible to freezing. Water froze inside our exterior ports (city, winterization and fresh water) even though we had them insulated nicely with sealed foam tubes.
As to the Truma, the unit works perfectly as long as the lines feeding it water don't freeze and ours did. You can't drive with the Truma on as the wind can blow out it's pilot light. You can either buy the anti-freeze kit or can opt to just winterize that unit. Super easy to do and you use little water but, we found, water dripping off the unit can fill in the slots that the little access door sits in and we then had to use a hair drier (don't ask) to melt it free.
As suggested above, travel with water and big body wipes till temps are reliably no lower than the mid 20s. Can survive a night of a bit lower if it gets above freezing in the day but otherwise the risk is not worth the consequence. We use a 7 gallon container w/spigot (Walmart) plus two one gallon, soft sided "canteens" from amazon (all BPA free), body wipes and "waterless shampoo" which works for a week. Any longer, we find a spa, gym or rec center where we can access a shower. We opted for the composting toilet so no water wasted on flushing. Clean dishes in a small pop open sink (Amazon) which fits in the sink and spray clean with a tiny half gallon garden sprayer with a light bleach mix. Works great.
Not ideal for a "4 season" camper should be but absolutely doable. Have a great trip.
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12 hours ago, Rivernerd said:
The biggest concern that keeps me from towing our Elite II during the winter is road safety. I have towed my much lighter raft trailer on snowy roads a couple of times, with sometimes scary results. No accidents, but some close calls. So, I gave up towing it until the roads are no longer snow-covered or icy in the spring.
Have any of you more veteran Oliver owners experienced loss of traction, fishtailing or loss of control on snow-covered roads? Any issues climbing hills on snow-covered roads while towing an Elite II?
We've done a few thousand miles of mid winter towing with our '21 Elite 2. Mostly with an F150 with 3 peak stamped tires, so they are solid in the snow. There is a lot of weight which helps traction but it's spread out over a large area and 8 tires which hurts traction. Have had a couple of minor straight line slides but never had the trailer sway or side slip.
Generally, the trailering necessitates extra caution on compacted, shallow snow. The weight seems to help it out pretty good in deep stuff but, your chances of the trailer slipping increases for sure. Given a day with black ice or light snow over ice, I'd opt for sitting it out. For the most part, if the pavement is covered, we're in 4wd and taking it slow. We have but have never deployed tire cables for both Oliver and the Ford. They would probably make for very secure driving but are a pain in the butt to use and not really up to covering lots of ground. Really an emergency option.
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We just got back from two week in Quebec. Was -15 one night and lots of overnights around 0. Aside from burning a 30lb LP tank every 3-4 days, was plenty warm. In spite of lots of mods to drive temps in entire garage to mid 50s on those nights, the water system froze up - when it was just above 10 degrees out. Turns out reflectix is decent at minimizing radiational heat loss but really not great at radiational heat loss so even in the warmish areas, where a pex line is up against exterior insulation, it will freeze. Luckily, no damage done.
We parked for a few nights by a none-too-fancy, stick built, stock 25' class c RV. Had for-real pink board house insulation and matts of stuff that was similar to our reflectix but was thicker sheet plastic between the foil. They had no problem with their water systems on the -15 night.
Had lots of useful take aways from the experience.
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If I understand this exchange right, you plug into the generator but your batteries are not accepting a charge?! If so, try the following: Plug a heavy duty, 3 way, grounded plug adapter into your generator. Your extension cord plugs into one side and put a neutral/ground bonding plug on the other. Follow the links to find on Amazon. Our built in surge protector can detect an "open ground" on generators as, well, they are not grounded. I have to do this with my Honda 2200i and it works perfectly.
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On 11/15/2022 at 2:24 PM, Mike and Carol said:
I had a fellow Oliver owner give me plugs that he cut from a piece of fiberglass he had. They fit perfectly into the ventilation holes from the inside. Then, I cut a section from a yoga mat and used contact cement to stick it to the inside of the battery compartment door. You could use any moisture resistant material to cut plugs out of. Mike
I did similar but double stick taped two layers of double bubble reflectix inside the doors to the garage and battery compartment. they were cut to the size of the doors. I backed off the latch attachment and secured them just tight enough so the rubber gasket around the door was firm against the reflectix. Easy adjustment to do.
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On 10/24/2022 at 6:04 AM, Steph and Dud B said:
@GAP How did you clear snow off your solar panels?
I carry a telescoping ladder similar to this . Love it. Super lightweight, lives in the cap of my truck, takes up little room. I use a truck snow scraper on the panels. If it's icy, I let the sun warm the sticky stuff before I sweep it off.
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Just now, topgun2 said:
I assume that you have sent you suggestion to someone at Oliver?
If not then I'd send it to Rodney Lomax % Oliver Travel Trailers.
Bill
I've been back and forth with Jason (the head of the shop) on this subject for over a year now. He has been responsive and respectful but, his take is that the trailers come stock ready for very cold usage. He rightly does not quantify exact temps, as there are variables, but says that the powers to be have tested down to single digits. He did not know any particulars such as if they were out when daytime temps got above freezing. He also suggested the source of in basement freezing could be orientations to wind, fullness of tanks, quality of LP, etc... but I've been thorough enough to eliminate those potential issues. Jason has shared my repeated requests to speak to folks in management but no one has gotten back to me. He was quite clear that if enough others opened tickets on this issue and expressed these concerns/experiences, he expects management would take note. I hope some of you consider doing so.
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4 minutes ago, topgun2 said:
Interesting idea -
Our current home was built as a "SPEC" house about 20 years ago. After it sat vacant on the market for two years (because the builder was asking too much money for it) we negotiated a fair price and moved in. A short time later, I discovered that the plumber that did the original work on the house decided to install a "return on the hot water line" from the further point away from the water heater thus forming a "loop" in the hot water line. He did this because the house is relatively long and narrow with the source of hot water being located at one end while the kitchen and laundry room are located at the other end. Obviously this causes a rather long delay in getting hot water to that end of the house.
Having never seen a return "hot water line" before I did some investigating and found a product called "Just Right" made by the Nibco company. This product is installed near the water heater on that "return line", it requires NO pump because it basically works using the Venturi principle which takes advantage of the small differences in fluid pressure due to the slight difference in pressure between the return water being slightly cooler than the water coming directly out of the water heater. You can read about how it works HERE.
As I see it, the down side is that the water heater would have to constantly be "on", but, that would probably be less expensive than having the furnace constantly "on".
Bill
p.s. this device works great and there is always hot water available in the kitchen and laundry room. Since there is always water circulating in those house pipes I did insulate those pipes heavily.
Bill,
Thanks much for sharing. My question is , does this device loop in the cold water lines as well? In our trailers, the loop needs to include all vulnerable hot and cold lines so as to protect them. I could not tell from their materials. will have to read through more carefully
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2 hours ago, NCeagle said:
@Stranded, I think that's a really cool (I mean warm) idea! It would actually address the entire system. Would this take some significant modifications to the plumbing? How would you get the water "flowing" around all of the plumbing in a closed loop?
Another option worth considering is 12V self regulating heat cables: https://www.oemheaters.com/. I installed some of these heat cables in the plumbing areas that were most vulnerable (Water inlets, front bathroom and rear storage area water lines) a couple of years ago. I'm pretty convinced that the areas I've protected would never freeze (camping, towing or otherwise) as long as the cables had power. As an example of power requirements, I have 4' of cable installed around the lines and valves that compose the fresh and city water inlets and it takes 1.5 amps at full power (single digit temps and below).
Very interested in hearing what you decide to do and your results.
Both of you, Stranded and NCEagle have great ideas here and I've considered both.
- I almost went with DC heat cables (heat tape) and it was an attractive thought. Please share how that has worked for you. I've found there are options for "self regulated" which draw more or less power depending on how cold the lines are. Some cables have built in thermostats set often to on at 45 and off at 55 or it's easy to add a digital thermostat which can be set manually. Problem for me with this set up is 1) tanks would be unprotected unless tank heat pads were added to the system 2) the amount of DC power it would take to protect all the pex pipes that are vulnerable to freezing (those outlined above) would be incapable with our winter usage style. We mostly boondock in ski resort parking lots and have never had access to AC power. Short winter days and low angle light = mostly using generator to juice our lithiums and would be a power challenge on long travel days. On really cold days, we would probably have to recharge our batteries daily. Not right or wrong, but for our use, heating the basement was the lessor of two evils.
- Recirculating water through the system would be great for protecting the lines and connections. Supplementing with DC tank heaters would draw minnimal DC power. We opted for the Truma Aqua Go Comfort system, installed by the factory, which we love. The Comfort Plus system has a built in recirculating feature. In discussion with Truma, they said the plumbing is a different set up to accomodate that system or I'd opt to switch. It would be easy enough to insulate with pipe wrap foam all the exposed pex and to put heat pads on tanks. I'm don't know anything about plumbing so wish I had Stranded's skills.
If I had known when ordering our Oliver that it was limited in it's cold weather use, AND I knew as much about cold weather trailer camping as I've learned, I would have tried to go a different route. My $.02 worth of unasked for input is that the factory could offer a "hard winter" upgrade that would be easy for them to instal and would be popular enough to justify the effort to develop and test.
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On 2/10/2023 at 10:23 AM, rich.dev said:
Sorry if I missed it but do you have a link to your winter mods?
Thanks,
RichI described the initial mods in the chain 3.75 Season Trailers? This upcoming trip is to Canada and will afford me the opportunity to test the additional mods I've made this season. I'm planning on sharing the gory details of all once everything has been tested for multiple days in frigid conditions with the water system on. So far, looks like I should be good down to 0.
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18 hours ago, Rivernerd said:
I wonder if the folks who use Oliver trailers in the winter in Alaska are limiting themselves to campgrounds with shore power, where they can use space heaters to warm vulnerable areas of the trailer as Jason suggests in his post above? Or if boondocking, whether they are running generators to power space heaters whenever ambient temps are below freezing?
Oliver is not the only travel trailer that is marketed as a "4-Season" solution. Are there other "4-Season" trailers on the market that can be used un-winterized when boondocking, without modification, and without external power for space heaters?
I'm none to well versed but, in my research before buying our Oliver and since, I've not found a trailer that does clearly better than ours, except for bigger models that have ducted heat to their basements and/or heat tape as standard features. The Escape Trailers from Canada seem to do about as well if you opt for their spray on insulation sealing of their bellies. They are described as 3.5 season trailers. That said, not of the same quality build. My brother owns a brandy new Airstream which is about the same size as an E2 and he claims they can now be set up for full on winter use but has not been able to test that out and I haven't bothered to dig into their forum. I'd argue, based on their forum, that they are not of the same quality as Oliver either.
RVs.even smaller ones, are often good for winter camping.
Given the increased popularity of winter camping I am puzzled by there not being more options. With my last modification ( to be tested starting next week) I feel my E2 will be good down to 0. Have tested in those condition quite a few times - am close to done. It was a lot of work but only cause I had partial guidance (limited but top shelf through this forum), am not handy and don't have an engineering brain so had to go slow and there was a learning curve. These mods were relatively cheap and straightforward to do so certainly not impossible.
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22 hours ago, JEssary said:
I have had a few questions regarding 4-Season camping with the Oliver and wanted to make a post so it would be available for everyone.
What is 4-Season camping? It simply means that the Oliver is capable of being used through all 4-seasons. It does not mean that it will necessarily have no freeze issues in certain areas during certain climates. This is no different than a house. Here in Tennessee we recently saw sub-zero temperatures and many people had their water lines freeze and burst causing lots of damage. Does that mean that their house is not capable of being used during the winter? No, it simply means that in certain temperatures you may need to make arrangements to combat the temperature. In the past I have had my water lines freeze that were located on an exterior wall of my house so this time when they said we would see sub-zero temperatures I placed a space heater on that wall area to help keep it warmer and the next morning I had no freeze damage.
Below is an average winter temperature for the United States however this is just an average and when temperatures go below the average especially when going into the low single digits or below zero, whether in a camper or a house you may have to perform steps to ensure freeze damage does not occur.
I don't wish to stick my head in a guillotine nor to contradict Jason who has been great to work with but in posting here he is, to some degree, responding to a ticket conversation I've been having with him recently. In fact, I pointed out the threads, including links to this post, where winter capacity was being discussed. While Oliver may have intended to apply the interpretation above to what "4 Season" means, that term is used to describe equipment that is meant to be used in full on winter conditions. Sleeping bags, tents, parkas, etc... described with that term are being sold as being appropriate for frigid conditions. In housing, it marks the difference between a seasonal and year-round place. Virtually all trailers that offer heat, including those that are much less expensive than Olivers, will work fine in these winter as long as you don't employ their water systems. In the name of transparency and fairness, if Oliver meant something more like "4 Season In Tennessee", it should have been spelled this out clearly in their marketing materials.
4 Season is not a bottomless pit meaning that no one expected these trailers to be able to handle insanely cold conditions when ordered. That said, my salesperson claimed that there were folks living comfortably in non winterized stock trailers in Alaska which according to my pretty extensive testing - around 2 month's so far of winter dry camping taking temps all over the belly - is simply not possible. This claim was repeated to me again by someone responding to a ticket just two weeks ago. I requested, in both cases, to be put in touch with these owners and never received a response. My results have show that there are areas of the basement/garage with water lines that will be exposed to temps below freezing with the cabin heat at 70 when outside is in the mid teens or even low 20s if daytime temps stay below freezing. These are temperatures that are not un-common during the winter in most states including parts California and Texas and sometimes, even in Tennessee.
Bottom line is that we love our trailer but feel that, We feel that in both indirect and very direct ways, it's capacity to be used in winter was exagerated. Jason is a super knowledgable, straight shooter and the company has been good to deal with but this particular situation has been a disappointment to us. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - right? Most Oliver owners, including us, bought theirs primarily for the superior quality with the vast majority having no interest in camping in below freezing temperatures. I'm sure most will disagree with my stance here but, I felt obliged to share a point of view from someone who is a frequent cold weather camper.
Let my beatings begin.
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On 2/2/2023 at 12:52 AM, Chukarhunter said:
Those of us that occasionally or frequently encounter very cold weather when pursuing our passions with our Oliver can benefit immensely from the experiences and insights of others on this forum. Those that never do, or that always winterize, probably don't care as much, especially those that never boondock. Let's face it, if you have full hookups, you can put two electric space heaters in the basement and run the propane furnace at 70 and not worry. Absent shore power, cold weather can be stressful.
I would like to see the Moderators expand the category of "Oliver Boondocking" and call it "Oliver Boondocking and Cold Weather Camping" so those of use that do find ourselves in frequently in cold weather and unwinterized can share our questions and insights in one place. I have spent over two years trying to figure out the eccentricities of the Oliver when it comes to balancing temperatures throughout the trailer in cold weather and I wouldn't trade my Oliver for anything else. However, what I have learned or not learned can't be shared in one giant post. And I haven't figured it all out either.
After two years of moving remote wifi temperature sensors around to different places, changing out the thermostat, and opening different pathways for return air to enter the basement, I have learned a lot. Importantly, I have come to the tentative conclusion that the biggest reason that the basement temps can drop so far below the cabin temp in places is due to the fresh water tank. Heat travels through water 20 times faster than it does through air. Conventional wisdom would say that the fresh water tank would act like a hot water bottle to help keep the basement warm. However, the fresh water tank in the Oliver appears to sit on a rubber mat on the floor of the basement and that creates a direct coupled path for the heat in the water tank to be lost through the bottom of the trailer at a rate up to 20 times faster than heat is lost through the rest of the shell. This sucks heat out of the basement faster than the furnace can replace it. Even a small air gap under the fresh water tank would slow this heat loss dramatically. Unfortunately, insulating under the fresh water tank is not an option for us, although Oliver should consider doing something like it in future builds.
The rapid heat loss from the fresh water tank could explain why the basement temperatures drop so much compared to cabin temperatures, unless the furnace runs constantly. I am wondering if it would help to add 2 inch or 3 inch rigid pink foam panels to the underside of the trailer between the ribs of the frame to reduce the heat loss from the fresh water tank. Am I crazy?
My take is on why the basement and garage areas are so much colder is because they are insulated by just a single fiberglass shell covered with a layer of reflectix which is less than ideal. I'm sure the tank can transmit cold but not at the rate suggested above. The conditions that cause water to lose heat at 20 times faster than air is caused by evaporative heat loss. I agree fully that the tanks should be better insulated from the cold outer shell but feel that if the basement was kept at a reasonable temp (let'd say 45 degrees) it would take a lot to cause the water in the tank to actually be in danger of freezing.
Your thoughts on adding rigid insulation boards to the belly is something I've been toying with for a while. I was considering running a test with a piece of that material to see how it responds to contact cement and spray adhesive. I assume those adhesives would cause the board to "melt" so would not be workable. 2" velcroe with good double stick tape may work but would really want to test as dropping a board on the highway could cause a sad faced story. I do feel that in general, Olivers could really use an upgrade in approach to insulation. The few ideas I've had to improve seem unworkable. One was to have company spray adhesive foam between the shells. Easy to snake feed tubes in just about anywhere but what happens if an electric connection is dislodged or a future repair/mod needs to be done? Also, the insulation itself needs to be water and mold resistant or I'd be writing another story with a rough ending.
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On 1/31/2023 at 6:46 PM, Mcb said:
I’m not sure what I did to help deal with the potential freezing of this pipes in the garage is a good idea or not, and since I’m not out playing in the same cold temps you are it may not apply…but.. what I did was to cut a “hatch” through the floor of the garage area under the rubber mat that allows me to access the pipes and fittings. This gives me the ability to stuff “handwarmers” under the floor on top of and around the pipes. I haven’t set up sensors and have no idea as to the efficiency of such a strategy but my pipes haven’t frozen yet, and maybe it might help you out in a pinch.
I also built a sort of insulation “block” which fits very tightly over the city water and fresh water intakes, as I worried about those fixtures, and figures it might help out with those pipes located just inside.
I'm like the idea of tossing in handwarmers but, on trips as long as we take, it would get costly. I've stipped out the flimsy wall and floor and now that I have a clear view of where the runs run, am developing a strategy. Currently torn between using heat tape between the lines surrounds by insulation or running either 2" semi rigid duct or 1" electrical conduit (doubling as duct).
Love your approach to protecting the inlets. You've inspired me to consider doing something similar with a hollowed out round block of closed cell foam and a pipe clamp or bunji to secure. Thanks on that.
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20 hours ago, John E Davies said:
That is a great idea, but be sure to leave access to the four big bolts on that flange, so that they can be retorqued routinely. They DO loosen over time. Some sort of “hat” with foamed insulation inside it might be possible, as long as it is easily removable. For example cover the flange with plastic wrap.
John Davies
Spokane WA
As always John, you bring up a great point. Do you have any idea what the torque on those bolts should be? I've never checked them.
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17 hours ago, Rivernerd said:
The overnight low last night here in central Idaho got down below 0 F. So today, I took advantage of the cold temps to test the performance of the Varioheat furnace system, with the additional return air vents I added on the aisle side of the front dinette seat and the closet last week The results?
First, the good news: The closet and the area under the front dinette seat were significantly better warmed by the Varioheat furnace. With cabin temp at 62 F, the area under the front dinette seat was 6 degrees warmer than before the addition of that return air vent (an increase from 38 to 44 F). The closet improved even more, a total of 10 degrees (from 44 to 54 F).
Now the bad news: My hopes that the increased airflow overall would also result in significantly warmer temps in the vulnerable area on the street side by the external shower controls, were not realized. The temps in that rear area of the trailer stayed above freezing once cabin temps got above 60 F, but only 2 degrees higher than before adding the new return air vents (40 F now vs. 38 before). Thus, there was some measurable improvement, and maybe enough to keep tanks and pipes from freezing when ambient temps are in the single digits, but not as much as I was hoping for.
Conclusion: Installation of the new return air vents in the front of the cabin and the closet significantly improved the ability of the furnace to warm those areas. But, that installation only marginally improved warming of the sensitive rear underbelly area of the trailer--maybe enough to keep that area from freezing down to single-digit ambient temps, but likely not below 0 F.
Rivernerd,
From my mad scientist experimentation, there are four things you can do to improve this situation.
1). The column of the leveling jack and, most especially, the metal flange the column is attached to, makes for a great cold radiator. some creative work with reflectix and silver tape would go a long way
2). unscrew the ext shower head, bring that line into the compartment and reattach the head. Pull the hot and cold knobs. Now there is enough room to add a block of closed cell foam under the little door to the ext shower compartment
3). cut two layers of reflectix material to cover the entire exterior access door. Cut to fit around the latch but wide enough so it gets pinched by the rubber door gasket to make a seal. Adjust the latch enough so it squeezes the reflectix to close gaps but not so much that the hinges to the door are straining when door is closed.
4). add a small return vent under that bed. Mabey do this last to see if required as it's the most invasive.
I went entirely overboard there and replaced the most rearward heat vent on the curbside, snaked under the floor, pst the inverter and fed out to the isle across from the existing galley heat vent. Had to insulate the hose from existing electronics. It works great and certainly heats the battery compartment but bet if I had started with the points above, would not have been necessary.
Hope this helps.
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9 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:
Yes.
We do the same but we shut off the propane while at the pump.
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13 hours ago, Rivernerd said:
Remember, that's "down to zero" overnight with the furnace running, and with the addition of the return air vents referenced in the "More Airflow in Bathroom" thread. It is not "down to zero" when on the road, with the furnace shut off.
I think it's super important for winter campers to remember that there is a substantial part of the water system that is, as far as has been discussed on the forums, still vulnerable to freezing even after the 2023 model year improvements. The area where the lines running through my garage in rear of the belly has consistently dropped below freezing when outside temps are still in the mid teens. This is even though I made all the same alterations on return ducts that Oliver has plus the mod to heat feeds coming from the furnace as described in "More Airflow In Bathroom". As previously shared in this chain, while camping, the rest of the belly remained comfortably above freezing when outside temps dropped to -5 but that rearward compartment ended up with plumbing exposed temps in the mid 20s.
The reason I started this thread was to share what I found about this vulnerability and to ask if anybody has found a workaround. Circling back to that question here. Any insight would be much appreciated.
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1 hour ago, johnwen said:
Hi Gap,
We are also 20 degrees F at the moment, unwinterized and without the vent mod, and have the forward dinette panel slightly open to allow airflow back to the furnace fan. It seems to help a little. I've seen 18 F the last couple of nights and upper 20's daytime. We also monitor the area around the furnace and water heater via a sensor. If I turn the water heater on a couple times a day and the furnace set to 70, it seems to keep that one monitored area above 38. As for the basement area, I'm unable to monitor at this time. I guess this long dissertation begs the question...is it helpful to put a vent under the dinette seat and how big of a vent did you make?
John
Last winter I put a 4" vent through from the base of the toilet to the area under the dinette. It's an eyebrow style vent so shower water can't splash into the belly. I also removed the exterior shower head, brought that hose inside and re-attached the head. Also removed the hot and cold water knobs. Used closed cell foam to insulate the space behind the tiny door and two layers of reflectix to insulate the outer door. All super easy and very productive. Those belly areas were measurably warmer as was the temp in the bathroom as air now flowed through there where it had been a dead end.
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12 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:
What is your definition of four season camper?
We have camped many times with night time temperatures in the 20s and teens with no freeze ups. I don’t winterize. We had a week of single digit temps a few years ago, I wasn’t winterized. I had my trailer in the driveway and turned on the furnace and had an electric space heater going (hatches open) and had no issues.
Is the Oliver an extreme cold weather camper? Probably not. Normal cold, 20s and high teens, yes. Very few people like to camp in single digit or below zero weather. Some, like us, will camp in cold weather but we don’t seek it out. Our Oliver has served us well in cold weather. Mike
I'd second the comments quoted above. I've found with a month worth of below freezing camping that the trailers in their stock configuration is safe to run de-winterized until the mid 20s. Below that the garage (the area behind the skimpy wall at the very rear of the trailer belly) drops below freezing posing a threat to the pex lines and connectors in that area. In pre 2023 models, the belly areas below the front dinette and by the exterior shower can also freeze when temps dip into the low 20s. With mods currently in 2023 models and/or mods outlined in the discussion titled 3.75 Season Trailer, all belly areas except the rear of the garage, have stayed above freezing down to -5 which is the coldest I've been able to test, so far, since making the modifications.
It's tough to say what "4 Season" means but, to me, any place that occasionally sees temps to 32 could easily fall to the low 20s so, the short answer as far as I'm concerned and have seen in my testing is Not Really, these are not currently outfitted for true 4 season usage. Others may draw different conclusions or even have different experiences. For what it's worth, at the end of the winter, I'll share a full breakdown of my mods and results.
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I got a copy of the waterline distribution diagram and found that these lines go to both the Fresh Water and City Water feeds and then go onto feed the bathroom. That sadly excludes the option to add cut offs to protect them from freezing.
We just returned from our 2nd winter ski safari this season. As with prior system testing, we did not dewinterize but did have temp/humidity sensors in the bathroom vanity, under front dinette seat, by the exterior shower outlet and in the rearmost area of the garage. The good news: even at -5 degrees, all areas (except the garage) never dropped below the mid 40s. All these areas had previously, before modifications, dropped below freezing when ambient outside temps were in the low 20s and internal temp was set to mid 60s. Progress! The horrible news: The area at the rear of the garage still dropped below freezing when ambient outside temps were in the mid teens and internal was set to mid 60s. This is in spite of our having placed return vents in the end walls of that compartment to allow return air to be drawn through by the furnace. These findings were constant for any night over a two week testing period when ambient temps would drop to this level. Our sensors are all adjusted to read the same temps within 1 degree.
It is worth noting that there seems to be no adjustment made in the 2023 units to warm this problematic area. There have been a couple of accounts of folks with new trailers camping in temps down to this range with no incidence of burst lines but without monitoring the temp in that area, who knows how close to the edge they were or if they split a pipe/fitting without knowing it. A slow leak would drain out the belly so may go unnoticed on a short trip.
Our next trip is in about 10 days from now and it will be at least 2 weeks so would be great to fix this problem. I don't want to add anything requiring power as our winter trips are always boondocking so power is limited. Fans and/or heat pads could do the trick but would certainly increase the power draw. We'll remove the flimsy rear wall and look below the partial floor to put eyes on things. Has anyone had success with addressing this problem?
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On 7/10/2022 at 4:35 PM, ScubaRx said:
Nothing will convert very safely...
Oliver's gonna tell you that, from their standpoint, you should not use anything other than their 1-1/2" receiver.
A major problem with using the stock 1.5" receiver is that all "RV rated" bike racks are made for 2" hitch receivers. There is no law that I know of that requires using an RV rated unit but, given the potential liabilities, I opted to do something along the lines of what John suggested. The forces at work on a bike rack, that far behind the closest axle are much higher than on a car or pick up. To me, the minor expense of stepping up to a rated. unit was worth the piece of mind.
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We are frequent winter camper taking my Oliver E2 to ski resorts in Northern New England. We have a composting toilet and, to date, have run dry, without de-winterizing the water system, for all these trips to allow us to quantify the issues the trailer has in sub freezing conditions and making adjustments to rectify. A summary of our experience with great input from others was outlined in this forum chain 3.75 Season Trailer?.
On a trip last week, we used multiple digital bluetooth thermometers, adjusted to read temps consistent to each other, to different parts of the belly of the trailer. As compared to cold trips before our system tweaks to date, all previously problematic areas (= drop below freezing in areas w/water lines) worked fine when ambient dropped down to -5f. Amazing. The outlier was, you guessed it, the rearmost area of the garage behind the flimsy wall. In spite of venting into and out of that area and opening the bottom door in the cabinet between the beds, the temp at those water lines dropped below freezing when the ambient temps was in the low teens. Crazy making, especially as there is no reason for those lines to have been run through such an exposed area.
My thoughts concerning next steps is to add cut off valves to those lines just behind where they feed past the furnace. The following image is towards the rear. Bottom of photo is just past the furnace. After the elbow, the lines feed into the garage. My questions to you knowledgable folks are 1) There are three lines, two of which are for the exterior shower. Which two? and 2) What is the third line? Is it the City Water feed? and 3) Considering that we will always start the season winterized, do you think it is necessary to add a cut off to all three lines if we dont use the City Water line?
Once we address this issue and successfully complete a mid winter trip with the water activated, I'll share a post on the 3.75 Season chain to share update and gory details. I am also curious to hear if those with 2023 trailers, with the improved heating system, have run their water in temps below 10 degrees. Exotic as those conditions may seem to some, in many parts of the country, any mid winter night could be considerably colder.
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I have a 2022 F150 which I bought brandy new in December of 2021: Weird but true. It's my daily driver and, unladen, gets roughly 21mpg. Towing my Oliver E2 with stock Goodyear Wrangler Territory P (passenger) rated all terrain tires, I would average 11-12mpg. In searching for a winter rated (3 Peak) tire, as opposed to a snow tire, I found plenty of information confirming that the average P rated tire is at it's outer limits towing an Oliver so best for low mileage on smooth roads. Very limited options for C&D rated tires (roughly 6&8 ply respectively) I opted for a E 10ply Michelin Agilis Crossclimate. Took my first winter trip which was 7 hours driving each way to and from a ski mountain in northern Maine. I go there often enough to know what to have expected with the Wrangler tires. Averaged 13-14mpg so noticeably better. Unladen, mpg dropped 1-2mpg compared to stock. Towed MUCH BETTER and seeing as how half my annual miles is while towing, the mpg balances out.
As expected, the new tires are a tad louder then the stock ones but barely noticeable difference. Also slightly stiffer ride when unladen but perfect and much less squishy while towing. A whole world of improvement on snow. More appropriate for rough road usage and greatly decreased chance of blowing out a sidewall. Found a great conversion app for comparing differences between tires so I ignore the door sticker and run the tires at 45psi unladen and 60psi while towing. It's convoluted but, in short, as plys go up, it takes more psi to achieve the same carrying capacity so beefier tires need to run at a higher pressure to get to the factory tire spec.
This is my 2nd truck where I tried stock and beefier tires while towing my Oliver. Similar outcomes in both cases. I'll use the stock tires during warm seasons but will retire them before they are at the end of their life and switch full time to the beefier options. Will try to keep them off heavily rutted roads and drive slowly when on dirt.
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Cold weather camping in LE 1
in Ollie Modifications
Posted
Great points. I am not sure why water seemed to not flow well to the Truma water heater but those pipes should be easy to get my hands on. Pipes that froze for sure were the ones that go from under the streetside forward to feed the bathroom sink. Inexplicably, the factory runs those through the center of the basement where it is impossible to get to. would have been handy for them to run it along that streetside the whole length of trailer. That said, they froze in a compartment that is well above freezing cause they must have been up against belly insulation - or sitting on freezing tanks. Reflectix is guilty of conductive heat loss. Either way, sliding on pipe insulation may do the trick.