LiFeBlueBattery

That's a very short run from alternator to house battery. Are you measuring the entire wire length? At 10' and 100A charge current, you are loosing 2.23% through the wire plus connector and isolator losses. That's probably over 0.5 Volts. If your alternator is at 14.0V then the battery end will only be 13.5V. We recommend designing for 0.2V drop maximum if you want to charge with high current from an alternator. The important part to understand is the lower the voltage drop in he circuit, the higher current that will be delivered to your house battery.

I believe I see the flaw in your test. An AGM battery at 85% SoC will draw low current. The #2 wire may also have high voltage drop thus reducing current output. A great test will be to apply a 100A continuous load on the house battery and drive again. I could be wrong here but the higher load should trigger the DC voltage to rise as it attempts to deliver demand current. The E-Torque 48V battery can not be maintained at 100% SoC as it is used for engine braking also. With low loads it must stop charging or reduce charge current to maintain the proper SoC. Their must always be "room" in the battery for the regenerative braking. This reduction may also affect the DC converter output but only momentarily as the controller regulates the 48V SoC. This is my understanding but I'm no expert on that system.

I was referring to modern vehicles with complex electrical systems. Back feeding high voltage when the engine is not running may trigger fault codes or worse may be harmful.

LiFeBlue Battery did not make any recommendation to leave the charge circuit disconnected. We did advise that the customer install a disconnect solenoid as shown in our auxiliary charge circuit diagram. See example of the solenoid in attached photo. We do not recommend connecting the 7 pin charge circuit without an isolation device controlled by the ignition. Your trailer charging system can reach 14.6 Volts. This voltage would be connected to the tow vehicles electronics. Check with your TV manufacturer for their recommendation.

Hi Fritz, Yes, a large enough wire and the other components is all that is needed. The charging system we recommend in the diagram has been used successfully by us for nearly 2 decades in every kind of tow vehicle. The DC converter you linked to only supplies 12 Amps maximum. That will take a very long time to charge the batteries. I view DC converters like this: you have 100 feet of 1/2" garden hose. You only get a trickle of water out of the end. You want more water (power) so you buy a high pressure pump (DC converter) to try and boost the water volume (current), stressing the hose in the process. Why not just use a larger hose (wire)? Someone was asking about the E-Torque system. It has a 3 kW 48~12 DC converter. This is used to recharge the chassis battery and provide for all 12 Volt vehicle loads. There should be ample power for charging the house battery. I recommend consulting with the manufacturer as to where to tie in to the 12 volt system for auxiliary battery charging. I know there was much discussing in this thread. Let me know if there is a specific question and I'll try to help. Happy Trails! Alternator Charge Circuit.pdf

Hi John and Anita, All LiFeBlue Battery models have low temperature charge protection. Oliver is currently using our Standard battery. If the cell temperature is below the protection temperature threshold, the BMS will do one of two things: 1) If the charge current entering the battery is 0.05C or less, the BMS will pass current to the cells. For the 200AH batteries, that is 10 Amps per battery. This low current is not harmful. 2) If the current exceeds 0.05C, charge current is blocked until the release temperature is reached. Any charge or discharge current will produce some heat in the battery, primarily from the FET's on the BMS.

Here's the 4 stage routine that the PD Charge Wizard performs. BOOST Mode When you first power on, full current until you reach 14.4 Volts. NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts after the Boost voltage is reached. (I'm not sure how long this cycle is) STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts – Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss. EQUALIZATION Mode 14.4 Volts – Every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes prevents battery stratification & sulfation. After the 15 minute of charge, the converter returns to CV Float mode that they call storage. PD terms can be confusing. "Boost" mode is usually called Bulk mode by other manufacturers. It is unregulated voltage and current. "Normal" mode is like the Absorb mode but they use a reduced voltage. "Storage" mode is normally called Float mode. "Equalization" mode is not equalizing batteries as the term is normally used. Equalizing flooded LA batteries is done by applying a high voltage charge of about 2.58 volts per cell while monitoring the specific gravity of the cells. This is very beneficial to flooded battery life. I also recommend a short (15 minute), daily equalization charge for AGM batteries for the longest life. All customers that have practiced this have had the longest lasting batteries, some over 13 years. (Note: None of this is related to charging LiFeBlue batteries.) Larry.

Hello Jim and others, Jim, you are correct. The best method for storage of LiFeBlue Battery is discharge to about 50%. That should be above 13.1V. Disconnect from everything and check voltage with the Bluetooth App periodically while stored. Recharge if voltage drops below 13.0V. A battery disconnect switch (see image attached) can be connected to the positive terminal to make storing or servicing easy. As far as the PD converters with built in charge wizard go, they take good care of lead acid batteries, be they flooded or AGM. After charging, every 21 hours, a high voltage boost charge happens to help dissolve lead sulfate that forms on the less active portions of the plates while in constant voltage Float mode. There is no need for any other chargers if you leave AC power on with the PD converter. A PV solar system controller that is 3 stage can also maintain LA batteries pretty well. I recommend a high voltage equalization stage every 1-2 months while stored to reduce level 2 bonding of the lead sulfate. That happens when the amorphous powder begins to form a crystal structure. If this is not dealt with, the battery will become irrevocably damaged. You can tell the battery is damaged by bulging of the case and pushing upward around the positive post as shown in the second image.

Hello, I posted before seeing your response. Please review my post above. The converter does not have to be replaced if you can use the on board button, Charge Wizard or Pendant. If you always want automatic charging, you will need to replace the converter.

LiFeBlue Battery can be charged from any power source within the voltage and current range specified. Nearly all PV solar controllers have multiple modes. If it has a Li-ion mode, you can use that. If not, we recommend using the GEL battery mode for 2 reasons. #1) Temperature compensation is defeated as a GEL lead acid battery can be destroyed quickly by high voltage. #2) GEL settings float at 13.8 Volts which will keep the battery topped off until the sun sets. Did you mean to ask about "Progressive Dynamics"? PI makes surge adapters and other products; PD makes converters. The PD multi-stage models generally will not work because they sample voltage before starting. Because Li batteries operate at higher voltages, this and other brand chargers think the battery is full and starts in the Float mode. Some have control boards with a button that allows the user to change to the Boost mode which will charge our battery. Other models have a port for external Charge Wizard or the Pendant. Each of those have a button to change charge mode.

Hello George, Here's a link to the data sheet on the LiFeBlue Battery website: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/ewExternalFiles/LB12200-HCLT Data Sheet.pdf The low temperature battery was introduced about 1-1/2 years ago. It is the same as our standard 200AH except it has the heater circuit. The latest version, and the one that OTT uses, is model LB12200D-LT. This version has an RS-485 data port built in for programming and future use. We have been selling our batteries for about 4 years now. Our OEM is Shenzhen Topband Battery Co. and they design and manufacturer our cells and custom BMS. Topband has developed Li-ion batteries for over 13 years. They have worked with us to consistently improve our battery features and quality. You can learn more about our manufacturer in the attached video.

Hi NCeagle, If your generator can produce 15 Amps AC (assuming you meant this), then you can easily power the Xantrex charger for the needed amperage. I think the gap is insignificant unless you are only relying on PV solar power. 340 Watts of PV solar power in ideal conditions (high irradiance, low angle of incidence, cool cell temp) can make over 20 Amps.

OK. Here's a fact from our business over many years: No customers has ever told us that they could not use the credit because the alternator or generator or shore power also charge the batteries. Customers wrote to thank us for the ITC info. They had never heard of it. They all used the full amount for the credit and were grateful for the $ thousands saved. I understand your wanting to research so I hope this is helpful.

1. RE @NCeagle's concerns about prolonged charging at 100%, I know that Battleborn batteries have a higher capacity than labeled and that their BMS is supposed to keep their batteries within a range that will prolong their life. Do you use a similar tactic or should owners be cautious about charging your batteries to 100% or depleting them to 0? I did notice that you recommend that owners deplete their batteries to 50% if being stored for longer than 30 days, whereas Battleborn recommends charging them to 100% before disconnecting. 2. Is your BMS software upgradable via your app? Are there any user controllable parameters for your BMS? Does the software provide any insight into battery health, cell balance, etc., or does it just give info on state of charge? 3. For those of us with programmable chargers, what do you recommend for absorption and float voltages, charge current, absorption time, etc.? 4. I've read that Battleborn says that the main difference between their batteries and yours is that they use a cylindrical cell vs a prismatic one. I haven't a clue about the two, but Battleborn reportedly says that in their tests the cylindrical cells lasted longer and were easier to keep balanced. What is your response to that? 5. The simplicity of these types of batteries with a built in BMS is a sword with two edges; i.e., there's more to go wrong and if it does, then you've lost the whole battery. You guys have doubled down on that by including bluetooth and heating inside the box and I'm wondering are either of those, or your BMS repairable, or worth the trouble to get repaired even if it is? Hello Overland, While I would enjoy having a discussion that compares LiFeBlue to other brands, I told Oliver TT that I would not do that on the forum. You’ve asked many questions that are answered on the website and in the data sheets. I’ll try to keep my answers brief. The data sheet is found here: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/ewExternalFiles/LB12200-HCLT Data Sheet.pdf Charging, protection The LiFeBlue BMS fully protects our battery cells. When the battery is full, It will will block all charge current coming in if any cell becomes saturated. This happens at 3.8 Volts. The charge inhibit function will latch until you begin to discharge the battery. The maximum rated voltage of our cells is 4.2V and our BMS keeps cells well under this limit. No harm happens to our battery by fully charging. Charge Profile LiFeBlue Battery BMS was designed with a broad input for voltage and current. They can be fully charged with any voltage from about 13.6V up to 16 Volts. We recommend about 14.4 Volts Absorb or CV for about 15 minutes, then reduce CV to float at 13.8 Volts. There are many other profiles that will work with out BMS. Discharging You can fully discharge (100% DoD) our battery without harming it also. Our low voltage cutoff happens when any cell group drops to 2.8V. The battery will enter sleep mode by disabling the MPU including Bluetooth. Current draw is reduced to 0.0005 Amps (5 micro-A). Storage, There are many aging studies indicating that storing an LFP battery at 100% will reduce cycle life much faster than storing at 50% or lower. Capacity retention is greater when storing at 50% SoC due primarily to increased positive electrode oxidization. Capacity We have noticed that our cell manufacturing process has increased energy density by about 5% to 10% in the last few container loads we have received. Our 300AH can have up to 330AH of stored energy. BMS firmware Our BMS can be updated only by us. The user can not access this feature with the user App. App The app has many functions. Renaming the battery is the only change you can make with the App. See the App page here: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/smart-connect-details/index.html Cells It is cheaper and faster to make a cylindrical cell than a prismatic cell. We use 25AH prismatic cells which cost more to produce than cylindrical cells. Like cylindrical cells, we use series and parallel connections but we have far fewer parts in each battery. We believe this means fewer points of failure over the life of the battery. For the last 2 decades I have done a lot of study on battery chemistries and have not seen any evidence that a LFP cylindrical cell will last longer than a prismatic cell. Let me know if you have found such a study. Our cells have actually been lab tested and with 1C discharge rate produced over 2800 cycles with 83% remaining capacity, the highest rating in the industry. Most Li batteries only claim 2000 cycles with 80% remaining. You said, “...a built in BMS is a sword with two edges; i.e., there's more to go wrong and if it does, then you've lost the whole battery.” One of our many innovative designs is that our battery is fully repairable at any time in its life cycle. If the BMS or a cell fails, even if it's many years from now, we can still repair it so you can continue use until it is spent. Currently drop in RV type Li batteries are made in China, Korea and Japan. None are made in the USA. There are many companies importing very cheap Li batteries. We choose not to go the route of cheapest price. Our goal is to have the highest quality battery that is also feature rich and the longest lasting. We have made many innovations such as our Bluetooth communications, high output BMS, low temperature batteries and so on. I hope this has addressed many of your questions.

That is correct. Up to 10A per battery will bypass the heater circuit. That means with PV solar power, you can be charging in early morning, not wasting the power. If current rises above the threshold, the battery will stop charging and turn on the heater circuit. Each battery requires 12 Amps to turn on the heater. If your PV solar can not produce enough current, the battery heater timer will start. You are also correct, there may be a period where the battery heater will not be on but the current is too high to charge the cells. This is another reason I recommend installing the auxiliary charge circuit from the alternator. Of course, a generator of shower power can also be used and the heaters will turn on.

Hi Overland, The LB12200D-LT requires 12 Amps DC to turn on the heater circuit. If sufficient current is not available, a 10 minute delay timer will start. Note that low current from your PV solar system will charge the battery at any temperature down to -4°F. The BMS firmware can be updated by us (in our service center) via the RS485 data port on the top of the battery. Here's a teaser: We are currently developing a Comm box with WIFI to connect our battery to an internet connected router. You will be able to monitor your battery from anywhere using our new App. And, it will send important push notifications to your phone. This is just another step in our commitment to offer the most innovative battery.

The language in the ITC law is the credit may be taken for all the PV solar power system components installed in any "dwelling unit". There are no conditions on how long you live in the unit or whether all of your energy is made by the energy system for which the credit was granted. In other word, the entire system with labor cost receives the credit.

Hi Overland, As mentioned in another response, our battery does not need 120Vac to operate the heater. Any sufficient current 12 volts source will work.

Hi Overland, A few corrections are needed. 1) There are many studies that have been done establishing the fact that storing any Li-ion battery at 100% SoC will cause faster degradation by corroding the positive plate. This will shorten cycle life. One study has shown that storing at 100% SoC AND keeping in high temperature will rapidly decrease capacity. Therefore we recommend keeping the battery as cool as posible and long term storage at 40%-50% SoC. 2) LiFeBlue Battery does not need to be removed to be stored if temperatures are above100°F. However, as stated above, cycle life will suffer. 3) LiFeBlue Battery 10 Year Limited Warranty has taken these factors into account. Simply keep the battery within the specified parameters on the data sheet. 4) A separate battery monitor will not show you many thing happening internally. If your battery has turned off at 2AM, you cant tell why. With LiFeBlue, just open the App to see what happened. Here's a list of what our internal monitor will display: App display for Event Protection: High Cell Voltage Low Cell Voltage Over Current Charge Over Current Discharge Low Temperature Charge Low Temperature Discharge High Temperature Charge High Temperature Discharge Short Circuit Protection Battery Warming (low temp models) Hope this helps.

Hello AndrewK, This is true. It is the internal temperature that matters. Just using the battery provides some internal heating that helps replace heat loss with cold ambient temperatures.

Hi Susan, Just FYI, we (Starlight Solar Power Systems) have designed and installed over 3000 RV solar power systems since 2001. Customer always claim the entire amount of parts and labor using the ITC. This includes batteries because a battery is a necessary part of the system.

Hello Overland, Your statement is incorrect. LiFeBlue Battery has a very broad operating temperature range of -4°F to 140°F. Cell over temperature protection turns on at 149°F. With the LB12200D-LT (sold by OTT) you can charge and discharge within this range. The batteries can withstand -40°F but should not be stored below -4°F.

Excellent Fritz. You make my point well for why I highly recommend installing the TV auxilliary charge circuit. It eliminates the need for a generator.

One important note: some of the batteries mentioned in this thread do not have low temperature protection.

Hello Fritz, Statement 1 above is incorrect. With our latest BMS, if the cell temperature drops below about 26°F, the heater circuit will activate whenever you apply charge current. If the current is below 0.05C , charge current will be delivered to the cells. If above 0.05C but less than the minimum required for the heater, the battery will not charge and a 10 minute delay timer will start. When sufficient current is available, the heater will activate. When the release temperature threshold is met, current will be directed to the cells. The charge source can be anything that make 12 Volts, shore power, alternator, generator or PV solar. You can combine charge sources if needed.