Factory lithium batteries - do they have a heating system?

[NCeagle]

15 minutes ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

Hi John and Anita,

All LiFeBlue Battery models have low temperature charge protection. Oliver is currently using our Standard battery. If the cell temperature is below the protection temperature threshold, the BMS will do one of two things: 1) If the charge current entering the battery is 0.05C or less,  the BMS will pass current to the cells. For the 200AH batteries, that is 10 Amps per battery. This low current is not harmful. 2) If the current exceeds 0.05C, charge current is blocked until the release temperature is reached. 

Any charge or discharge current will produce some heat in the battery, primarily from the FET's on the BMS.

Excellent.  Thanks for the quick response Larry!

[mjrendon]

This is great news for the owners of the Life Blue systems implemented in Oliver trailers.  Combined with the external heating seems to address one of the issues (charging when too cold) with lithium house batteries.

Here is another option for external heating using 12V DC that may work for those not using Oliver's engineered solution. It is by Facon and originally intended for holding tanks but is about the correct size for the LE2 battery compartment. There are mentions of it being used for batteries on the Amazon website.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by mjrendon

[John E Davies]

1 hour ago, mjrendon said:

Here is another option for external heating using 12V DC that may work for those not using Oliver's engineered solution. It is by Facon and originally intended for holding tanks but is about the correct size for the LE2 battery compartment. There are mentions of it being used for batteries on the Amazon website.

Thanks for the link, I added it to my RV Wish List. It uses 4.8 amps at 12 volts, a little high IMHO but since it cycles on and off that isn't a worry. HOWEVER, the manufacturer doesn't say anything about batteries, it is for gluing to the bottom of a holding tank. I would be very concerned about placing a bunch of heavy batteries on top of it. OTH you could glue it to the bottom of the sliding tray, that would still work and would not smash any internal wires.

John Davies'

Spokane WA

[Overland]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ventilating the battery box with cabin air rather than trying to heat it.  I'd think that a small computer fan would do the trick at very low electrical cost. This one is easily big enough, but only draws 0.2 amps - connect it to a nice louvered vent on the cabin side with 3" duct.  I'd have no problem running that all night, if not 24/7, and I'm sure you could find a better sized, more efficient fan with minimal research.  I use a similar fan in my fridge to move the air around, and I just turn it on when we're packing the fridge and turn it off when I clean it out at the end of the trip.  Its power consumption is a rounding error in the battery monitor.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Overland

[Overland]

And Battleborn now has heated batteries -

https://battlebornbatteries.com/product-category/heat-battery-kits/

[Ray and Susan Huff]

6 hours ago, Overland said:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ventilating the battery box with cabin air rather than trying to heat it.  I'd think that a small computer fan would do the trick at very low electrical cost. This one is easily big enough, but only draws 0.2 amps - connect it to a nice louvered vent on the cabin side with 3" duct.  I'd have no problem running that all night, if not 24/7, and I'm sure you could find a better sized, more efficient fan with minimal research.  I use a similar fan in my fridge to move the air around, and I just turn it on when we're packing the fridge and turn it off when I clean it out at the end of the trip.  Its power consumption is a rounding error in the battery monitor.

This would be fine, as long as you are heating the cabin.  

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:56 AM, Overland said:

After spending three weeks without the bathroom furnace vent connected, and not being able to tell a lick of difference, I’m thinking that instead of trying to reroute that vent back to the bath like I’d planned, that I’ll just run it to the battery box.

I have one of those seed mats and while it does get slightly warm to the touch it doesn’t seem like it would have much capacity to warm anything that it isn’t touching directly. Maybe that’s just my particular mat, but I’d worry that if you’re trying to warm the air in the battery box to heat the batteries, that it might be a losing battle between the mat and the cold door, even with insulation. 

And don't forget those poor seeds/seedlings in the potting shed . . . . . what about them????

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:17 AM, AndrewK said:

All, I have had two Battle Born batteries for a year and a half now and have had no problems with the batteries getting cold.

I did plug the four holes on the door, insulate the door with the bubble insulation and a seal around the edge of the door.  The fiberglass plugs, insulation and the seal came from Oliver.

We routinely camp, where night time temperatures are near or below freezing.  During our last trip it was 34 to 36 degrees at night and the lowest temp at the battery terminal was 59 degrees. 

The lowest battery terminal temperature I have seen was 49 degrees, when it was 16 degrees and windy overnight.

I honestly don't think most would need battery heaters.

Andrew

Were these stats with the holes plugged and the battery compartment insulated?

Good to know.  We don't plan to intentionally camp when temps will be below mid twenties.

 

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 11/29/2020 at 12:51 PM, John E Davies said:

Thanks for all the comments, I was not sure a mat would be needed because I don't ski or winter camp. The Victron Connect app will monitor battery temperature as long as you install the accessory probe ($20) between the batteries and the smart bus. It needs that info to talk to the MPPT solar controller and any other smart devices in the Victron wireless virtual network. It does show individual cell temps in that sub-menu but I don't know why that isn't enough for the bus to use.... I was under the impression that the Victron Smart Bus would not allow charging below 41 degrees F battery temp, but I can't locate that info. There are high and low temp ALARMS that can be set and adjusted as needed, I jus don't know if that controls actual charging.

I just want to make sure that if I wake up and the air temp is super cold, I can charge them without damage if the sun comes out. If the box stays well above freezing, or I have shore power, that most likely will never happen.

NCeagle, I would really like to know the part number of the heating mat/ thermostat that Oliver installs, that sounds like a very good option, since the mat can be laid directly underneath the battery housings. (I am assuming that!) If you insulated the BOTTOM of the slide out tray, that would reduce convective heat loss in that direction and save some energy.

Door insulation - I would appreciate recommendations for an aftermarket product that will look OK and hold up well.

Thanks,

John Davies

Spokane WA

Same here . . . . what insulation?  I've asked Oliver, but not sure they will suggest anything that doesn't conform to RIVA regulation.

[Overland]

56 minutes ago, Ray and Susan Huff said:

And don't forget those poor seeds/seedlings in the potting shed . . . . . what about them????

They seemed content with the heat mat. They weren’t crazy about the humidity this summer though. Apparently New Mexico chile plants prefer dry climates.  Who’d have thought?

[NCeagle]

14 hours ago, Overland said:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ventilating the battery box with cabin air rather than trying to heat it.  I'd think that a small computer fan would do the trick at very low electrical cost. This one is easily big enough, but only draws 0.2 amps - connect it to a nice louvered vent on the cabin side with 3" duct.  I'd have no problem running that all night, if not 24/7, and I'm sure you could find a better sized, more efficient fan with minimal research.  I use a similar fan in my fridge to move the air around, and I just turn it on when we're packing the fridge and turn it off when I clean it out at the end of the trip.  Its power consumption is a rounding error in the battery monitor.

I mentioned that I'm installing a 3" solid heat duct down the curb-side basement all the way to the dinette footwell in another post.  I'll cap it off at the end and put holes in strategic areas to mitigate risk, for example near the outside shower plumbing.  I'm also thinking about insulating the battery box as much as possible and putting the battery box "inline" with the 3" heat duct.  As long as I have a few holes "downstream", hot air would flow through the battery box when the furnace runs.

My solution is dependent on propane (and a small amount of electric to run the furnace fan).  I'd love to have an all-electric backup.  I like the idea of computer fans to suck air into / vent the basement (and possibly the battery box).  That's further down the road for me though - I'm taking the easy route right now with the built in furnace. 

Maybe I can figure out how to make the furnace fan run without heating.  When I put my thermostat on fan only, the A/C fan on the roof runs.  Doesn't matter if I'm in heat or cool mode.  😞