Cold weather camping in LE 1

[Coastal Aggie]

As luck would have it my upcoming trip to Alaska is going to be happening a bit sooner than i had expected in only 2-3 weeks. It looks like by the time i get up to fairbanks ill still have about a week there before it ever gets above freezing. Most of the winter camping modification threads ive been able to find on here are focused on the LE2. Can anyone point me in the right direction for stuff specific to the LE 1? i know there was a thread the other day that mentioned the lines to the kitchen sink freezing but does the LE1 have any other problem areas i need to keep a close eye on? Im planning on boondocking the whole way there roughly 7 days from Texas to Fairbanks but i should have shore power from a friends house once i get there. Ive got the lithium pro package and composting toilet and ill have probably 3-4 days in texas to get things ready to go before i head off. 

[topgun2]

Many of he things in this regard that apply to the Elite II will also apply to the Elite I.  I'd insulate just about anything that I could get my hands on and I'd start with the water lines.  Actually at the elementary level this is fairly simple - go down to the local hardware store and get yourself several lengths of 1/2 inch foam pipe insulation like THIS and put it on any (yes - both hot and cold) pipe you can reach.  Then start shoving extra insulation anywhere you can (I'd use something like Reflextix) anywhere you can - an extra layer in the attic, a layer in and around the external shower and under the dinette seats, layer behind the kitchen drawers, etc..

You don't have enough time for more "extreme" measures.  In any case have a great trip!

Bill

[DunnYet]

Sounds like a great trip! No expert in extended cold weather, but with a pick up date in mid February we have had two trips through temps in the 20’s and one ice storm. Your trailer is close to ours  (LE ‘22  Hull 1030) so I am going to guess my investigations from last week will apply to yours as well.

(1) As @topgun2 pointed out - insulation is your friend. From my under the curb side covers time last weekend it appears that indeed the hot water line leading to the sink gets very close to the outer hull and is touching in at least one place. Pressure is being applied by the Pex curve guides that are using to route the lines. If you can get a piece of insulation up between that it should be good.

(2) Check that you are getting warm air on the vent in the rear on the curb side when the furnace is running. There is a vent just to the rearward of the kitchen on the curb side. I discovered that I am not getting anything but cold air there. Have not determined why - not sure if its a factor of a ridiculously  undersized air duct and too long an uninsulated run or a leak at the attachment to the furnace. If your’s is hot then the heat radiating off the duct may be what is supposed to keep that cavity warm. Would be interested to know if you just get cold air there as well.

Other than the one frozen plug in the pipe, which did not cause any long term damage, we have not had any cold weather issues. Data points are small - just a couple of nights, so your and other’s experience may vary.

[Rivernerd]

10 hours ago, Coastal Aggie said:

Can anyone point me in the right direction for stuff specific to the LE 1

These suggestions are not specific to the Legacy Elite, but are relatively easy to implement and sometimes overlooked.

1.   Do you have the Truma water heater?  Does it include the antifreeze kit?  If so, be sure to install the antifreeze filter before leaving home, and switch the Truma control over to antifreeze mode during daytime driving.  When parked, keep the Truma water heater on Comfort mode, which will burn more propane, but will provide an additional margin of safety from freezing.

2.   Also, remove the shower head from the outside wash station, pull the shower hose inside the trailer, re-install the shower head inside the hull, and place the head/hose assembly inboard from the hull.  As this is an area that gets little heat from the furnace, I would also place a couple of layers of Reflectix-type insulation along the inside of the hull where that outside wash station is installed.

[Coastal Aggie]

15 hours ago, topgun2 said:

You don't have enough time for more "extreme" measures.

Do you think adding the extra insulation would be sufficient for a week of single digits at night and 20's during the day enough that i can actually use the water system? I can of course leave all the cabinets open as well but its not the end of the world if i need to blow out and winterize the system until it warms up a bit. I do carry a portable compressor already and i can just fill a jug in my friends house if i need to.

13 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

remove the shower head from the outside wash station,

No i dont have the truma unfortunately, now that i know more about it i may end up having it retrofit in someday. But Ill definitely be taking the shower idea. im not big on the outside shower idea to begin with.

[topgun2]

8 hours ago, Coastal Aggie said:

Do you think adding the extra insulation would be sufficient for a week of single digits at night and 20's during the day enough that i can actually use the water system? I can of course leave all the cabinets open as well but its not the end of the world if i need to blow out and winterize the system until it warms up a bit. I do carry a portable compressor already and i can just fill a jug in my friends house if i need to.

Well - if it were me I'd winterize my Ollie.

Simply put - the cost of potential repairs far outweigh the comparative inconvenience.  In cold weather I leave my Oliver winterized and carry a couple of gallon milk jugs for water to flush the toilet and/or sponge baths (where campground facilities are not available/there are also "Dude Wipes" that can be used for this purpose).  Drinking and cooking water is also carried either in the tow vehicle or within the Ollie - depending on temps.

Good luck!

Bill  

[GAP]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:45 AM, Coastal Aggie said:

Do you think adding the extra insulation would be sufficient for a week of single digits at night and 20's during the day enough that i can actually use the water system? I can of course leave all the cabinets open as well but its not the end of the world if i need to blow out and winterize the system until it warms up a bit. I do carry a portable compressor already and i can just fill a jug in my friends house if i need to.

No i dont have the truma unfortunately, now that i know more about it i may end up having it retrofit in someday. But Ill definitely be taking the shower idea. im not big on the outside shower idea to begin with.

I'm with TopGun on this.  We just got back from a trip in Quebec.  Not to get into gory details but we've opened the entire basement up to heated airflow and done other mods to assure all the pex lines are kept above 50 degrees even when it's below 0.  Our water system still froze in specific spots most notably where they are in contact with the existing reflectix insulation which seems to do OK with radiational heat loss but not so good in conductive situations.  I suspect the tanks sitting directly on a single layer of reflectix against the bottom of the trailer, would be super susceptible to freezing.  Water froze inside our exterior ports (city, winterization and fresh water) even though we had them insulated nicely with sealed foam tubes.  

As to the Truma, the unit works perfectly as long as the lines feeding it water don't freeze and ours did.  You can't drive with the Truma on as the wind can blow out it's pilot light.  You can either buy the anti-freeze kit or can opt to just winterize that unit.  Super easy to do and you use little water but, we found, water dripping off the unit can fill in the slots that the little access door sits in and we then had to use a hair drier (don't ask) to melt it free.  

As suggested above, travel with water and big body wipes till temps are reliably no lower than the mid 20s.  Can survive a night of a bit lower if it gets above freezing in the day but otherwise the risk is not worth the consequence.  We use a  7 gallon container w/spigot (Walmart) plus two one gallon, soft sided "canteens" from amazon (all BPA free), body wipes and "waterless shampoo" which works for a week.  Any longer, we find a spa, gym or rec center where we can access a shower.  We opted for the composting toilet so no water wasted on flushing.  Clean dishes in a small pop open sink (Amazon) which fits in the sink and spray clean with a tiny half gallon garden sprayer with a light bleach mix.  Works great.

Not ideal for a "4 season" camper should be but absolutely doable.  Have a great trip. 

 

[Coastal Aggie]

@GAP @topgun2 How much of the piping is actually accessible? Ive just had the idea of using heat tape on all the piping. I know it would be a much bigger job than i currently have time for and would probably only be feasible for on shore power but if its possible to reach the majority of the piping or at the very least the sections that are susceptible to freezing then it shouldnt be that difficult to rig something up. 

it would probably be a pretty easy option for oliver to add at the factory as well.

[topgun2]

With the type of pipe insulation I pointed you to, you can simply apply it to a pipe that you can access and then push/slide it along that pipe until it will not slide anymore.  This allows you to "reach" into areas without tearing things apart.  To do your heat tape you will need very close access to each pipe - that will be very difficult given the time constraints you originally mentioned.

[GAP]

17 hours ago, Coastal Aggie said:

@GAP @topgun2 How much of the piping is actually accessible? Ive just had the idea of using heat tape on all the piping. I know it would be a much bigger job than i currently have time for and would probably only be feasible for on shore power but if its possible to reach the majority of the piping or at the very least the sections that are susceptible to freezing then it shouldnt be that difficult to rig something up. 

it would probably be a pretty easy option for oliver to add at the factory as well.

 

6 hours ago, topgun2 said:

With the type of pipe insulation I pointed you to, you can simply apply it to a pipe that you can access and then push/slide it along that pipe until it will not slide anymore.  This allows you to "reach" into areas without tearing things apart.  Do do your heat tape you will need very close access to each pipe - that will be very difficult given the time constraints you originally mentioned.

Great points.  I am not sure why water seemed to not flow well to the Truma water heater but those pipes should be easy to get my hands on.  Pipes that froze for sure were the ones that go from under the streetside forward to feed the bathroom sink.  Inexplicably, the factory runs those through the center of the basement where it is impossible to get to.  would have been handy for them to run it along that streetside the whole length of trailer.  That said, they froze in a compartment that is well above freezing cause they must have been up against belly insulation - or sitting on freezing tanks.  Reflectix is guilty of conductive heat loss.  Either way, sliding on pipe insulation may do the trick. 

[GAP]

17 hours ago, Coastal Aggie said:

@GAP @topgun2 How much of the piping is actually accessible? Ive just had the idea of using heat tape on all the piping. I know it would be a much bigger job than i currently have time for and would probably only be feasible for on shore power but if its possible to reach the majority of the piping or at the very least the sections that are susceptible to freezing then it shouldnt be that difficult to rig something up. 

it would probably be a pretty easy option for oliver to add at the factory as well.

Pipes are not the only problem.  The tanks are sitting on one layer of reflectix which has proven itself to allow for plenty of conductive heat loss so those would need heat pads for sure as there is no way to remove them and insulate more sensibly underneath.  If tanks are only partially filled, a pad on top would not do much good so longer narrow ones applied to the tank sides is the option.

Exterior ports froze in my case.  Guess blowing them out after usage MAY prevent that problem.  If applying heat tape, make sure to get behind the flimsy wall at rear of trailer as all that piping is super vulnerable.  The lines run parallel but not always right against each other so you may have to run multiple tapes or tape between and wrap in insulation to share the heat.  Under the floor (easy to remove) just inside the garage compartment is the exterior port valves for city and fresh feeds.  Those should probably be looped into the heat tape application.

As to the pipes, you are spot on that using heat tape and pads would either require shore power or daily generator goosing of the lithiums.  Certainly not enough usable sun in winter to do the job.  TopGun has a great suggestion on snaking on insulation where you can't get heat tape to.  When I looked into this there were options for smart tape which is always on but adjusts it's output to the amount of heat needed.  would certainly want to wire in an off switch.  Very pricey stuff.  simple tape and pads can be wired into cheap digital adjustable threshold thermostats so you can set to something like "on at 35 and off at 45".

Have a great trip.

[Coastal Aggie]

I think what ill end up doing for now is jus blowing the system out when i start the journey north. Ill have plenty of time to mess with it as ill be spending probably a month and a half hanging out up there and i have no set schedule or itinerary. ive found some heat tape that would probably work rated for 12v and 2.5w/ft but ill need to just spend some time looking at it all to figure out what the best way to do it is. Im a Ships engineer so im no stranger to working in tight spaces. @topgun2 im going to look into it once ive got the time but it may be possible depending on the heat tape used to apply that inside the tubing insulation before hand and use that to push it into the hard to reach spaces.

[Rivernerd]

51 minutes ago, Coastal Aggie said:

just blowing the system out when i start the journey north

Oliver does not recommend blowing out the water system with compressed air.  Instead, Oliver recommends winterizing with RV antifreeze.  That is what I would do, following Oliver's winterizing video: