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Oliver Weight ( split from forsale forum )


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Doug - that's good advice for typical camping. However, typical camping only applies to us sometimes. We do a good deal of boondocking too, where the nearest place to fill/dump will be hours away. Such is the case as this upcoming Friday. We'll camp a night first at a traditional campground in Reno to fill our fresh water, dump grey/black and do our final procurement supply run. But then we have a 3-4 hours tow into Black Rock City over hilly terrain, where there is absolutely no access to water or dumping until we return to Reno (where we'll again camp and dump everything before heading over the Sierras back into CA). A lot of boondocking is way out of the way - and that's part of the point of our journey, to experience it all and see things off of the beaten path. So, for our CCC, we do need to allow for towing with a full tank (fresh or grey.. probably never both) on a more than 'rare' occasion.

 

And these are calculations we took into account when specing our trailer - so that when we do need to tow with a full tank, we're not grossly overloading ourselves.

 

- Cherie

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I am following this discussion with intrest because our camping style is very similar to Cherie and Chris's.

Our Oliver is, I am told, the #1 2008 that came down the line. I got that from Robert, I believe it.

Having said that, it follows logicly that we have the lighter axle set up, with 15" tires and wheels. Before each trip we look it over carefully as I am sure most on here do.

We have always carried at least a weeks provisions and changes of clothing. We always travel with our water tank full. We always carry some extra water in the Oliver. Our refrigerator is always crammed full. Every nook and crannie is packed to the limit with stuff we will consume on the journey.

On the tongue there is a 3000 watt Yamaha generator that holds three gallons of gas, in a large box with a heavy duty locking system. Estimated weight 250 lbs. Our tongue is extended all of the way out to facillitate this.

We travel pretty heavy. We travel over many high mountain passes out west, camping above ten thousand feet of elevation often.

We tow with a Jeep Wrangler with a V6 engine, a 3.8 liter.

Now I know that according to some, I am doing a lot of wrong things. Scarey things, to some.

However, under those circumstances, we have towed at 80 to 90 miles per hour with no ill results, none at all. Now before some get excited over my flagrant violation of the speed limit, the speed limit is 80 MPH on I-10 in West Texas.

I am not telling those that are concerned about the trailer's weight, that they are wrong.

I am saying that every one has to tow within their own capability and comfort level. If you exceed that comfort level, you will not enjoy your trip very much.

I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth 08' Oliver Legacy Elite HULL NUMBER 0003(sold)

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I understand your concerns, Cherie, but if you want to live within the limitations of your Oliver, the only way I can see to do it is to carry some of your water in your tow vehicle rather than in your Oliver, if the water causes you to be over the CCC of your Oliver. However, that just might shift the problem to the CCC (or the GVWR) of your tow vehicle. I know you will research this and see exactly how best to achieve your goals. You need to weigh your Oliver, and the tongue with it fully loaded with water (and everything else you will take to Burning Man) and see where that leaves you, with regard to both the Oliver's CCC and your Jeep's capacities. If it doesn't work out within the limits you have to deal with, you will either have to take your chances with with what you have or get a larger capacity tow vehicle.

 

For those fortunate enough to have a full size pickup with a towing capacity in the 7-9 thousand pound range, the obvious solution is to carry most of your fresh water in containers in the bed of your truck.

 

These issues are why I wanted to get the facts about the weight of the Oliver. I will have no problem towing with our big dually, but I likely will with the RAV4. I very much wanted to tow with the RAV4, but now I have to change my plans. I think the RAV4 can still be used, but only when I don't have steep grades, bad roads, or lots of weight to contend with. I'll have to leave my generator and some other gear at home if I tow with the RAV4. If I tow with the big dually, I can take almost anything I want, as long as I put it in the bed of the truck, but my travel costs go up considerably with that vehicle.

 

I really think that with the life style you and Chris lead (active and off-road) you will eventually want to get yourselves a 4WD, full size, long bed, V8 pickup so you can take all sorts of toys with you, like canoe's, kayak's, mountain bikes, back packs, etc.

 

Have fun and be safe at Burning Man and come see us when you are in our area. If you have the time, please let me know how your solar panels and your other electrical system is working out for you. I'm getting the same setup as yours, except without the big inverter and with two 6V golf cart batteries. I am getting a Xantrex 40 Amp smart charger, however, just without the inverter.

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Mountainborn, I appreciate your input on this weight/towing issue. It gives me more hope that I can tow our Oliver with the RAV4, and save on fuel with at least some of our trips in the Oliver. I think your Jeep and our RAV4 are both rated to tow 3,500 pounds.

 

However, it's time for you and Butcherknife to do some slowing down on the roads. Take it a little easier and slower. Enjoy the view more. I'm just kidding you, you should do what ever pleases you, but be mindful that if you have an accident, you may have significant legal exposures, due to your speed, your weight, and/or your towing capacities. When other individuals get hurt or killed they thoroughly examine their legal options, and your speed, weight, and towing capacities will be the first place they look for their legal remedies under law. Insurance may not save you if you are towing over your limits.

 

Good luck!

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Doug - a larger capacity tow vehicle will do nothing to help with the limitations of the weight on the axle of the Oliver. And *that* is where my concern is. Our tow vehicle already exceeds the capacity of that and is NOT the concern I'm talking about here.

 

And aside from a couple of bikes that fit nicely on a spare tire bike rack of the Jeep, we don't have a lot of 'toys' to be hauling around. (Thank goodness, today we're putting Chris' airplane in storage and getting back the room in the Jeep!). A full size pick up makes no sense for us right now - as it would be a significant decrease in fuel economy when we're not towing (which we're hoping to get to a place in our journey soon where we are in one spot for weeks/months at a time, and actually unhitch and use the Jeep/bikes to get around locally.) Perhaps when we get ready to do a veggie oil conversion and need to haul around a drum of french fry grease for fuel, a pick-up would make more sense.

 

But for now, our Jeep 4WD CRD is meeting our needs just fine (other than going up mountains in 115 degree weather, like we did last week - and even then, we just took it slowly).

 

- Cherie

 

PS. Thus far, the solar system is working great. Post Burning Man we should have much more to share on that after we've had a chance to actually use it for a more extended period of time.

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Cherie, with a 5,000 pound rated axle mounted in your Oliver, I don't understand why the axle is your concern. I thought your concern was the difference between the 4,000 pound GVWR of the Oliver and the actual weight of your Oliver, as you and Chris have it loaded, with a full fresh water tank.

 

Once you fill your fresh water tank, I suppose you feel that your Oliver will weigh in excess of 4,000 pounds, due primarily to the 32.5 gallons of water and the Honda generator siting on your tongue, along with everything else you have packed into your Oliver.

 

What I am suggesting is that you could bring down the weight of your Oliver to below the 4,000 pound GVWR limit by carrying some of your fresh water in your Jeep rather than in the Oliver's fresh water tank. I don't think there is anything else you could do at this time to keep your Oliver under the GVWR of 4,000 pounds without doing that. In the long term, perhaps there are some modifications that could be made to your Oliver to increase its GVWR to above 4,000 pounds, but I can't speak to that issue, and that is obviously not a short-term solution for you and Chris at this time. Surely you're not telling me that you think your Oliver has been loaded to the point where the 5,000 pound limit on the axle is being exceeded, are you?

 

Good luck.

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If the GVWR is only 4000 and our base weight is potentially 3400+ (yes, I know - we need to get weighed), then surely we have potential of exceeding that. It's the CCC that the trailer is overall rated for that I'm worried about.

 

 

(And we carry the generator in the Jeep, not on the tongue)

 

And even if we carried spare fresh water in the Jeep, we'd still have grey water issues to be worried about (unless we're at place where we can ecologically and legally dump grey water.)

 

And I know there's not much else we can do to bring the weight down.. that's what I'm complaining about. There was 250 lbs of weight of insulation (plus other potential weight) put on our trailer that we weren't aware of, and we only found out via you posting your private e-mail discussion with Robert. This isn't the way that customers should learn about the specs of their trailer.

 

- Cherie

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... And I'm not so much concerned about the towing limitations (we're rated for 5500) - but rather the capacity of the trailer/axle itself being exceeded.

 

- Cherie

It seemed odd to me that your Liberty would have a maximum towing capacity greater than mountainborn's Wrangler Unlimited considering the Liberty's shorter wheelbase. So I did a check on the Jeep website and it shows a maximum towing capacity for the Liberty of 3500 lbs. Is the difference because of the diesel?

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Actually, the 6 cylinder automatic Liberty without tow package has a GTW of 2000 lbs and tongue of 200. With the tow package, it's 5000/500. Which is the same for the diesel CRD that we have. The 3500 is for the manual transmission version. (This comes directly from the owner's manual for the 2006 model.)

 

- Cherie

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Dumping grey water is not ecologically harmful. All it is is fresh water and some soap. It's good for the ground and plants. Black water...NO (we all know that).

 

We are both in the same boat regarding the weight of the Oliver. All we can do is to express our displeasure with Oliver, and I've already told Robert I was disappointed to learn of this information only after the commitment to buy had been made, and other towing equipment had been ordered and received for the RAV4.

 

However, once we adjust ourselves to the issue, the good news is that we have a more superior trailer than we first thought. I am already making the necessary adjustments, and they aren't cheap. Starting tomorrow, GM is extending its employee pricing to the public and giving added rebates on all their 2008 inventory. I may end up buying a new 2008 Silverado with a sticker price of $32,500 for only $23,000 or so; something I would not have even considered prior to learning of this weight issue.

 

Cherie, you are justified in your concerns, but there is not much that can be done about it, other than make the necessary adjustments. If you think of something new let us know. My thinking is that if your Jeep can tow your Oliver to your satisfaction, then your Oliver will probably be fine, even if it weighs over 4,000 pounds on occasions. If we experience strength of materials problems regarding the weight in our trailers maybe Oliver will take care of them. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

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WOW…This is like a brush fire. I am in the process of getting more exact information on all of this. I apologize to everyone and understand all your concerns. I am in constant contact with everyone here at the plant trying to get “exact as possible information” to all these comments. It is going to take a couple of days to get it all.

When this first started with Mr. Irby’s estimated weight we were using that; an “estimated weight”. Tomorrow we are weighing the drum of insulation “prior to application and after application” so we will know a better figure. At this time fiberglass is thinking that it might be closer to getting 3 units (instead of 2) out of a 500lb drum. That would drop us down to an estimated 166.66 pounds for insulation instead of 250lbs.

We also have a man weighing each and every part involved in “options” so that if a customer is trying to achieve a certain weight we can assist them in building their unit with that information.

In today’s conversation with Jim Oliver on this topic he wanted me to express that the construction of the trailer does not need to be a concern for you as to what weight it can support up to the 5200lb axle rating. The issue is what you tow it with, how you load it and most important “how one drives once on the road”.

Please bear with me while I get this information gathered and if you have a specific question or concern e-mail me with it so I may have the chance to respond to each of you specifically. It’s difficult for me to tell when someone is posting a thought, opinion or actual concern. We all wish to provide you with what information you require.

In closing I just wanted you all to know that “neither I nor the company have our head in the sand on this”, I was trying to handle it as quickly as possible but, the questions are coming faster than I can address. Tomorrow, I anticipate the mobilization of a much larger team to get answers for you all. If you will please respond by e-mail as mentioned above we at “Oliver” can help you much faster.

 

Thanks,

Robert

repartee@olivertechnologies.com

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Buffalo Bob, the information that is the most needed by your customers and potential customers is an accurate (within 50 pounds either way) dry weight of a "base" Oliver. You can define "base" any way you like, but I suggest that it be keyed to either a Classic or an Elite, without any options or deletions of standard equipment. This would include the weight of the 5,200 pound rated axle, the weight of the inner and outer shells as you are currently building them, plus all standard equipment.

 

From that weight, the weight of each options can be added and the weight of each deletions can be deducted, to arrive at an estimated as-built dry weight that is within 100 pounds of actual. Obviously, you would need to get a fairly accurate weight for the bottom interior shell of a unit with and without the twin bed option in order to deal with that option.

 

I think you should ask every Oliver customer if they are planning on towing their Oliver with a specific vehicle, and both Oliver and the customer should be aware of that vehicle's tow rating. If the tow rating on the vehicle is lower than the projected as-built dry weight of the Oliver, plus a full tank of fresh water, plus the weight of the 6 gallons of water in the water heater, plus the weight of the propane in the propane bottles when full, plus the weight of any customer added equipment (like a generator) that will be placed in or on the Oliver, plus an estimated weight of all other cargo (this would depend on the use of the trailer) of say 200-400 pounds, then the customer should be warned about their choice of tow vehicle.

 

If all this adds up to a total weight of X pounds, then any customer with a tow vehicle with a tow rating of less than X should be forewarned by Oliver that their tow vehicle is probably inadequate to tow the Oliver they have selected. The current base weight you have on your web site (2,400 pounds) can be very misleading to any prospective customer. That weight can set up some very unrealistic expectations with regard to a adequate tow vehicle for the Oliver, especially if it is an Elite with a few other options. If I were you, that 2,400 pound Oliver "specification" would be the very first thing I would address in my efforts to communicate better with your customers and prospective customers regarding the weight of Oliver trailers. I think that piece of information is at the root of this weight issue. Whatever that figure needs to be revised to should also be annotated with the explanation of which Oliver model (Classic or Elite) it applies to and that no options have been figured in that weight. If I were Oliver, I would put a base weight (dry weight) in the specifications sheet for both models, along with the Cargo Carrying Capacity and Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of each model.

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DougI, I am not saying this to be disrespectful or anything, but, if I followed that lengthy and exacting process to see if I could tow my travel trailer, it would take away alot of the fun.

We didn't go to all of that trouble, and didn't worry about it, and we are having the time of our lives !

I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth 08' Oliver Legacy Elite HULL NUMBER 0003(sold)

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Well, that's certainly the answer I was hoping for...that the actual GVWR is indeed higher than 4000 lbs. As long as Oliver is willing to put this in writing (i.e. on the weight decal of the trailer), I'll be a happy camper.

 

Even so, I'll still be doing what I can to keep the loaded weight to a minimum, for the benefit of my TV and fuel economy.

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Mountainborn, I understand completely. Many people do not want to do the research and know the facts, because that's not fun for them. However, for me it is fun to do my homework and know the facts about such things. I want to know if I am towing within the specified limitations of my TV and my RV, or not. Other people could care less.

 

It's different strokes for different folks.

 

Once your Oliver is built and loaded, all it takes to know the facts is to weigh the trailer and the tongue, something that's not all that difficult or time consuming to do, but something that very few RV owners ever do. I don't mind being in the minority. If I decide to try to tow with my RAV4 this information is critical, due to the marginal towing capacity of the RAV4. If I tow with the big dually or another full size pick up, the information is not that important because of the cushion I would have with the towing capacity.

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Here is something i found about this topic. Pay particular attention to the paragraph with the word "manslaughter" in it:

 

"Searching the web, the message forums are littered with questions about “how much truck do I need?” with responses that all too often sound a little bit like “I tow a 44′ 18,000lb travel trailer with my Ford Minivan and I haven’t had any problems!” Let’s do this right. First, some terminology:

 

GVWR - Gross Vehicle Weight - The maximum weight of vehicle with all cargo, passengers and gear

GCWR - Gross Combined Weight Rating - The maximum combined weight of loaded truck and trailer together

GAWR - Gross Axle Weight Rating - Each axle has a rating for how much weight it can handle

Tongue Weight - The amount of weight the trailer puts on the truck either via a bumper hitch or a Gooseneck/Fifth-wheel hitch

Curb/Dry Weight - The weight according to the manufacturer which is 99% guaranteed to be less than the amount it actually weighs

The following list is a carefully researched and validated method for determining what kind of truck you need and how much you can tow. No other method is valid. Although you, your cousin, your buddy or a friend of your friend might have towed for years without a problem or voiding a warranty, pay attention to #1 and judge how much your life is worth.

 

If you overload your truck or trailer and are involved in an accident with loss of life, you may be charged with manslaughter even if it is not your fault. I have only read stories online of this actually happening but legally it is clear that it could happen, probably more so if you aren’t properly licensed.

TAG trailers (attach to the rear bumper) want approximately 10-15% of the total trailer weight pushing down on the hitch where a Gooseneck/Fifth-wheel trailer (attaches in the back of the truck bed) wants between 15 and 25% of the total weight pushing down on the truck. Therefore, we can calculate backwards: for a TAG trailer, 1000lbs of tongue weight is equal to 1000#/10% = 10,000lbs of trailer provided we meet the rest of the requirements.

There is one, and only one way to accurately determine how much you can tow: you must weigh your truck loaded as you will actually use it! Curb weights mean nothing! My Dodge Ram 4×2 Turbo Diesel is listed at 6311lbs with a 150lb driver. The truck actually weighs 6630lbs. Using our above calculation, that 319lb reduction in capacity translates to a 2,126lb reduction in trailer weight (@ 15%)!

The weight of the truck empty is pretty useless. If, in my case, you’re going to use it in order to tow two or three people and gear for a weekend, you need to load it up and hit the scales in that configuration. You can estimate, but again, estimating wrong could in the most extreme case mean going to prison. You can find scales in the yellow pages and almost every landfill has one that you can use freely as you drive through. Pull halfway on the scales and weigh the front axle, then pull fully on and get the complete weight, then drive half-off and get the rear axle weight."

 

http://www.ghidinelli.com/2005/03/15/towing-trailers

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Friends, Romans and Countrymen,

I come here to say that I have learned a lot over the last few days, had a lot to ponder, had a few side bars with others and “What I have been forgetting is the fact that this is the “information age!” On items of special interest to me, I have researched in detail and thought that what I was reading was up to date. As things started picking up this year in sales I have been spread thin, as well as all our employees have. In this I lost focus on the importance of timely and accurate information on our website. This in my mind, is what it all boils down too, most all our recent buyers use web information, be it a forum or website to make their decision. While you see that our forum has 213 members that’s only the tip of the iceberg. I estimate there are another 750 people that come in, read, digest the information, never post and make a decision on what information is available. If we are to continue this path of growth I must improve the flow of current information and updates in our product in a more timely manner.

I feel it important to mention that over the last 3-4 months the Oliver’s have provided 5 more full time and at least 4 more contracted labor and services to deal with our growth at great expense. We have growing pains but, “Make real sure you under stand this. “Jim and Evon Oliver” expect that the “Oliver Legacy” be the standard that others set their goal to be. We go far and beyond what many other manufactures would do to make the owner “happy with” and proud of their “Oliver”.

Again, I just ask that if you need me, contact me.

Also, a mention of me in your prayers tonight would be appreciated , I’m posting this from home and it has not been “proofed” nor “approved” by others. But, from my experience and talk’s with the “Oliver’s” I truly believe they would agree with what I have said.

 

Thanks,

Robert

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It's good to see that the factory is responding to this issue. However, I would hope that the ensuing resolution and discussion on the "weight problem" would continue on this forum instead of the private correspondence with the factory that BuffaloBob has suggested. Any worthwhile solution deserves to be aired freely and openly in my opinion.

 

Special thanks to member DougI for his many insightful responses contained in this thread.

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This topic has wandered off of the origonal subject. It seems to go in continual circles, and is to the point where a member is trying to establish policy for these forums.

Speciffics of enginering items should be addressed by the Professionals at the factory. Please direct your questions there. This topic is closed.

I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth 08' Oliver Legacy Elite HULL NUMBER 0003(sold)

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It's my impression that Robert is still gathering all the pieces to give us a full and comprehensive answer to our concerns. We talked with him, Jake and Brandon just yesterday, and there is no 'private talks' going on about this issue. Just the reassurance that it will be addressed with as accurate information as possible.

 

- Cherie

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It's good to see that the factory is responding to this issue. However, I would hope that the ensuing resolution and discussion on the "weight problem" would continue on this forum instead of the private correspondence with the factory that BuffaloBob has suggested. Any worthwhile solution deserves to be aired freely and openly in my opinion.

 

I have several issues that I'm curious about concerning you and your pursuance of this thread.

 

First, please define the "problem" in the weight issue.

 

Second, do you even own an Oliver? If not, where is your dog in this race and why do you even care what an Oliver weighs? It seems to me that you are just trying to stir a pile to make it stink worse.

 

This is a PUBLIC forum, not a factory source of information. Any information contained here is nothing more than our personal knowledge or opinion. If you require accurate information, it should be obtained from the factory, not here. I would suggest that anyone who believes everything they see on the internet should call me about a bridge I have for sale.

 

An FYI for everybody that has a real stake in this. My independent research shows that the weight of the sprayed on ceramic microsphere insulation is 166 pounds per unit. NOT the 250 pounds as has been previously reported. Feel free to confirm this with the factory.

Steve, Tali and the dogs: Reacher, Lucy and Rocky plus our beloved Storm and Maggie (both waiting at the Rainbow Bridge) 2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, HULL NUMBER: 0026 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, HULL NUMBER: 0050 2017 Silverado High Country 2500HD Diesel 4x4 

 

      ALAKAZARCACOCTDEFLGAIDILINIAKSKYLAMEMDMA       ABBCMBNSYTsm.jpg

 

 

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