Mountainman198
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Posts posted by Mountainman198
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First side is swapped. Old Chinese Dexters will go to the recycler and bring scrap value…maybe enough for a soda pop. A few observations:
1) I put a set of calipers to my 3500# Dexter axles and they are 3” dia. Ubolts provided by Alcan are for 3” dia axles fit perfect
2) Alcan ubolts are 9/16” rod vs. the smaller (1/2”?) that were stock on my trailer. No worries installing as the holes in the spring retainer plate are large enough to accommodate the larger bolt diameter
3) Alcan ubolts are longer to accommodate increased spring pack height (5 vs. 4 leafs). About 1-1.5” of thread extend below nuts. I plan to leave but you could cut the excess off if it bothers you
4) Torque specs from Alcan for 9/16 ubolts is 90 foot lbs. See attachment
5) Two of my shocks were blown so I am replacing them A Irwin squeeze clamp works wonders for compressing and installing the shocks after the springs have been bolted in
6)reversed the wet bolts so that the zerks point inward even with a 90 degree lock-n-lube fitting it was a PITA before hoping this will be easier
7) the front springs were still in “ok” shape but starting to flatten. one rear spring had snapped and the other was bent
8)the parts for my trailer were sourced during COVID and at the height of demand for RVs. I cannot help but ponder if the RV frenzy and skilled labor shortage during this time played some role in my broken spring and the quality of the other one that was bending. Oh well, just glad to be safe and be replacing the stock springs before heading out in a month for another Season of seeing this great Country
Very straight forward swap. Heck, I did it on a tarp in melting CO permafrost. Cannot imagine doing the swap inside on concrete. 🤪 That would be Lux.
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39 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:
Only concern I have is trailer height changes. Reason is that I have only about an inch clearance on the barn door frame.
If it is possible and not already too late to do so, can you get an accurate trailer height difference that the new springs result in?
Many thanks.
I will not be able to get the measurement as rear springs have already been changed day after my rear two springs failed in Feb. I believe Hobo reported a 3/4” change (higher) at the bumper after his change to Alcan (but this may be partly due to flattening of old springs over time?)
1” clearance, WOW. You gotta be doing some serious glute squeezes through that opening in/out at stock height.
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4 minutes ago, MAX Burner said:
UPDATE: The 500-mile torque inspection was actually a 527-mile torque inspection at a QT in Wichita Falls. The process is now taking only a couple minutes longer than it takes to fill up our 30+gallon tank in the Tundra.
Still amazed how the new U-bolts stretch - each nut took several quarter turns to reach the target torque value! We'll be check them every 1k miles for a while.
Interesting Side Note: Speaking with Mike/Alcan yesterday on a particular boring stretch of HWY 287 somewhere near Electra, TX, we learned how springs are "weight rated." Evidently, there are several algorithms used by spring manufacturers that rate springs once several parameters are uploaded. Keep in mind that ll algorithms are not exactly the same - some are more accurate than others. Values for steel type, width, thickness, alignment pin size, eye-to-eye length, etc., all determine the weight rating. Alcan uses a highly rated program with a reputation in the industry as being very accurate. Turns out that virtually all RV manufacturers, industry-wide, use spring packs that either just barely meet RVIA standards or don't meet them at all (depending on the algorithm program used to rate the springs). When Alcan ran the dimensions of the Chinese-made AXLE TEK spring used on my Oliver, it was "quite a bit less than the rated 1,750# target", according to Mike.
IMO, this issue goes back to DEXTER and not necessarily Oliver - because, as I understand - but could be wrong, the axle kit (including the spring packs) are supplied by DEXTER. But even if the AXLE TEK spring packs were tested to and achieved the 1,750# target at manufacturing, after some time (not necessarily road miles, but age) - those springs will flatten (all 4 of our's did) and they will not be able to meet the target rating going forward. This is due largely to the low quality metallurgy of Chinese steel. Labor costs, environmental regulations, and manufacturing standards in China are much less, if exist at all, as compared to the US steel industry.
With a suspension travel of barely 2" (just measured it) before the top of the U-bolts smack into the my Oliver's aluminum frame, I want to be sure the springs are doing what they are there to do. So owners that find themselves crawling around underneath their rigs, this is another inspection point - if your suspension ever "bottomed-out" it will leave an imprint on the frame from the top of the U-bolt. That's a good indicator your spring-packs have flattened and need attention.
Also IMO, the choice between Chinese-made and US-made leaf springs for travel trailers depends on the specific needs and priorities of the manufacturer or end-user, including considerations of cost, quality, and supply chain reliability. For businesses emphasizing cost control, the Chinese-made springs may be appealing, whereas for those prioritizing quality, safety, and supporting domestic industries, US-made spring packs might be the preferred option.
So, mindful owners should think about: (1) having their running gear/suspension inspected, and/or (2) upgrading their suspensions if needed, or (3) never approaching their 7k# OTT max GVWR, or (4) towing slowly only on pristine roads, or (5) not worrying about it and see what happens down the road.
Sorry in advance for my rant, it's just my $0.02...
Trusting that RVIA has the consumers interest and safety at forefront is akin to expecting that NADA (North American Automotive Dealers Association) has the end consumers interest at heart.
Prepping to finally install my Alcan springs today now that the snow has melted. 😀-
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3 hours ago, Steph and Dud B said:
It's pretty obvious from the photo. You're at the wrong angle to the sun. Problem solved.
I stopped the guy who was skijoring down the street behind a Subaru and he agrees with your assessment.
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22 minutes ago, rich.dev said:
@Mountainman198 you are correct, when I saw the 3500lbs rating I just assumed its the axle rating. But I googled it and yes D52 means 5200lbs, thanks for the clarification! 😉
I could have been wrong in which case you had the unicorn nev-r-lube fitment on 3500# axles. 💪
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11 minutes ago, rich.dev said:
Wish they were, but mine is definitely 3500lbs 😔!
Please correct me of I am wrong, but the suspension arrives to Oliver as an assembly and is rated as the assembly (springs plus axles) and given the lower of the two of axle rating or spring rating. It appears you have D52 (5200lb) axles with 3500 lb springs which as an assembly are correctly rated at 3500 lbs.
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16 minutes ago, John Dorrer said:
I may have missed this, but I'm guessing that those that have recently purchased the new Alcan 5-leaf springs will be putting them on older trailers with 3,500 Axel's, versus the 2022 -2024 and 5,200 Axel's.
Did this come up in conversations with Alcan?
What difference do you think there will be in the stiffness/ ride?
A 3,000 spring X 4 = 12,000 on a 3,500 axel
vs
A 3,000 spring X 4 = 12,000 on a 5,200 axel
Mike from ALCAN assured me that the springs they sold me were 2,000lb springs. So, 2,000x4= 8,000. 3,000 lb springs could be a issue.
For full disclosure, my E2 is a 2021 with approx 25,000 miles towed. 99%+ of miles were on paved roads, 80% of those miles is West of Mississippi, remainder of miles is in the Summer. Never on either Coast. Dry weight of my trailer is just over 5,250 lbs.
All three tanks are empty whenever I travel. Trailer rides level using Andersen hitch.
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Located 8,750’ up in the CO Rockies. We get 300+ days of sun here so why won’t my solar panels produce power?
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On 3/12/2024 at 2:32 PM, Roger said:
When we bought our Oliver they offered couch cushions which we opted not to get. I just spoke to Anita and they no longer sell them.
I often find myself camping alone and really wish I had a comfortable way to sit on the unused bed with good back support etc. What solutions has anyone found for this? Does someone with the couch give me the cushion measurements if I decide to make my own?
They did not offer the couch cushions in 2021 when I ordered either. I use a set of four down throw pillows which allow me to create different shapes for sitting/leaning differently
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5 hours ago, AlbertNTerri said:
Is ALCAN just a manufacturer or do they also do installation?
I believe Hobo has posed this question to ALCAN. I dont know the answer, I would PM him or give ALCAN a call. They may be able to recommend a local installer. Please report back your findings
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6 minutes ago, Mountainman198 said:
I completely understand where you are coming from.
However, coming from a rock crawling and jeeping background I can understand the warranty period for their products as their main business is building custom suspensions for people who will take their 4x4 rigs to places like Moab and do things to them that a teenager wouldn't do to a stolen rental car. Over time and as ALCAN gets more into the RV suspension business, perhaps their RV spring warranty will split from their off-roading line and fall more in line with that which we are used to seeing in our world. Until then and knowing what their rock crawling customers do to their products and that the springs I purchased for my trailer are built with the same raw materials and using the same process as their offroad springs I am confident of my purchase.
For example
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15 minutes ago, CRM said:
Take Dexter out of the equation. Having only a 90 day warranty on springs that should last a decade or more is kind of ridiculous. A year at least would be reasonable. I'll probably still buy them but will now wait to see how they hold up for others who have purchased them already.
And honestly, I would pay the $995 for 2 sets if they came with a 5 year warranty. It's not about the money, it's about a company standing behind their product. I doubt even a set of Chinese Dexter's would fail that quick.
I completely understand where you are coming from.
However, coming from a rock crawling and jeeping background I can understand the warranty period for their products as their main business is building custom suspensions for people who will take their 4x4 rigs to places like Moab and do things to them that a teenager wouldn't do to a stolen rental car. Over time and as ALCAN gets more into the RV suspension business, perhaps their RV spring warranty will split from their off-roading line and fall more in line with that which we are used to seeing in our world. Until then and knowing what their rock crawling customers do to their products and that the springs I purchased for my trailer are built with the same raw materials and using the same process as their offroad springs I am confident of my purchase.
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10 minutes ago, jd1923 said:
Have any of you filed warranty claims on your broken springs?
Given that the Dexter (EMCO, TexTrail) springs are only $70/pr, I felt my time better spent playing guitar and drinking coffee than documenting and substantiating the claim to Dexter only to possibly be rewarded with another set of their springs.
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On 3/9/2024 at 4:17 PM, mountainoliver said:
I noticed in the photos of the new springs that they have the center bolt installed in the opposite direction as the original springs have. I think that the round bolt head should be at the top side of the spring so that it can fit into the locating hole in the spring perch that’s welded to the axle. The hex nut will not fit in the location hole. It’s not a big deal, you can turn the bolt around but you’ll need two strong C clamps to hold the springs together before you try to loosen the bolt. I’ve done this before while restoring old cars and rebuilding the springs. Probably the manufacturer should be notified when an order is placed to install the bolt for the axle mounted on top of the springs not under the springs. I’m guessing that they are used to axles being mounted under the springs on jeeps etc. for more ground clearance.
Mike from ALCAN just called to let me know that all future orders of springs for Olivers will have the centering pins in the correct orientation for our trailers. He asked that I alert those who have ordered and who may order in the future to state the springs are for a Oliver E2.
I had sent him an email asking about my understanding of how to flip the centering pins on my springs. He confirmed that flipping the pins is as simple as MountainOliver explains with a couple of C clamps, wrench, and hammer. Hopefully, I am the only Oliver owner to have to perform this step moving forward.
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9 minutes ago, hobo said:
Mountainman198. Just want to understand what you are "noting". Are you saying that I need to order the wet bolts from ALCAN or do the bolts I already have work?
The wet bolts from my Oliver are 9/16" O.D. and from my measurement of the ALCAN springs I received I am re-using my existing wet bolts as the I.D of the bronze bushings in the ALCAN springs I received are 9/16". Let me know if this does not make sense. I chose NOT to buy new wet bolts from ALCAN.
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Just now, rich.dev said:
Do we know that Oliver is aware of this “issue”?
I don't know about the other owners who have experienced a broken spring(s) but I opened a ticket the day after it broke and remained in contact with them until I sourced new springs.
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9 minutes ago, Patriot said:
Wise words. 👍🏻
Agree. Has anyone checked out the lead provided for St. Louis Spring? They seemed capable of replicating our springs with US Steel. Has anyone identified additional US Spring manufacturers who can build to our specs in US 5160 steel?
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7 hours ago, ScubaRx said:
John, The springs ARE 25-1/4" on center to the spring eyes. The spring eyes are 11/16" ID. They ARE 4-leaf springs, 1.75" wide steel and they should have distinct bow to them about 3 inches deep as measured on a long bow, string to grip. They should NOT appear as "very straight leaf spring assemblies". This would indicate to me that they have flattened and are failing.
I can confirm that these measurements match the OEM brand/model spring specs for Hull #898 as well as match the published specs for the replacements spring brand/model provided by Oliver Service for my trailer. I encourage owners to confirm the specs of their OEM springs to know what they are replacing before proceeding with replacement of any part as we know certain differences exist between out trailers based in hull# and date produced.
My OEM Spring make/model was conveniently stamped into the retainer band towards the end of each of my leaf springs (see pic). From this info I did a google search and found the specs. The springs installed at the factory on Hull #898 were made by EMCO and are model #PR-4B. The specs match what Steve provided above. Added to the specs Steve provided is the bushing spec provided by Oliver. The bushing is inserted into the spring eye and our wet bolts ride inside of them. The specs for these bushings (whether plastic or bronze) is 1.75”L, 11/16 O.D.(outside diameter) and 9/16”I.D.(inside diameter).
It should be noted that the bronze bushing on the ALCAN springs is thicker walled than standard such that while it still has a 9/16”I.D., the spring eye into which it is pressed is larger than 11/16”. The 9/16”I.D. Of the bushing is important on these metrics as our wet bolts (which are 9/16” must fit inside the bushing eye) I hope this makes sense. I have attached a pic for comparison OEM spring in top, ALCAN on bottom.
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36 minutes ago, MAX Burner said:
@Stevon - We replaced our's last year. The shocks were most likely OEM from when Oliver built it - if memory serves, 3 of the 4 were bad. We went with the same shock from Monroe - only difference was they're no longer yellow, they're black now. We'll be checking these new shocks when we replace the leaf springs in a couple weeks. They've got just north of 11k miles on them...FYI
PS: It would be nice if you could add your OTT hull number and year to your signature block so other owners can better help answer any future questions you may have.
Same here. One was bad so I bought a pair of the same model monroe. Could not find a better shock as nothing cross-references with it. Anyone have a better shock please provide make and part number
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8 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:
Shifting focus on the topic:
When the spring fails, does the tire or broken spring get into the wheel well fiberglass?
Would the answer to the above be different if we were on a fire road with big bumps up/down?
GJ
not in my situation. The ubolts rested on the steel carrier which is bolted to the frame. I could still place my fingers between the tires and the fiberglass flares on both sides. Note: it was my LR spring that failed. Might be different spacing for front failure?
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8 minutes ago, mountainoliver said:
I noticed in the photos of the new springs that they have the center bolt installed in the opposite direction as the original springs have. I think that the round bolt head should be at the top side of the spring so that it can fit into the locating hole in the spring perch that’s welded to the axle. The hex nut will not fit in the location hole. It’s not a big deal, you can turn the bolt around but you’ll need two strong C clamps to hold the springs together before you try to loosen the bolt. I’ve done this before while restoring old cars and rebuilding the springs. Probably the manufacturer should be notified when an order is placed to install the bolt for the axle mounted on top of the springs not under the springs. I’m guessing that they are used to axles being mounted under the springs on jeeps etc. for more ground clearance.
Good catch. You are correct that the springs I have appear to be set up for Spring Over Axle rather than Spring Under Axle. Thanks for alerting us to this. Agree not a big deal, just another step which could be resolved on their end during assembly via a request at order time.
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18 minutes ago, jd1923 said:If these are truly rated at 8000 LBS GTWR that may be OK or perhaps a bit too stiff. Our Oliver sits about 6200 LBS when traveling. Could they remove one leaf to bring this down to a 7000 rating?
Best to call them and ask. Their specialty is custom leaf springs, based upon owner provided specs. You will need to provide them with msmts, loaded weight, likely gvwr and perhaps more details. I would be surprised if they would be unwilling to make something custom to meet your specs
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I am sure there are other US Spring manufacturers that use US made 5160 spring steel. I encourage people to do their own research and let the group know if you find other sources. In my week-long search I found only two manufacturers that returned my inquiries. I knew previously of ALCAN and their offroad spring Creds and they had the springs in stock so I went with them. St. Louis Spring also replied to my inquiry but required that I purchase a new replacement spring of the specs I wanted and send it to them to replicate. I have included their response below in case there are owners local to St. Louis and for whom this requirement would not be such a obstacle. Note in their response they also recommend adding a fifth leaf.
Best of luck in your own sourcing. Please post any concrete updates on places which meet the "made in USA with USA 51560 steel" criteria. It is always good to have multiiple sources from which to choose. Also, perhaps Oliver may wish to follow this path for suspension on future trailers. Our legwork may help facilitate this as a future upgrade, placing Oliver even farther up the quality metric amongst the pool of RV mediocrity.
As far as running a set of 8,000 springs vs. 7,000 I am prepared to run even lower tire pressures to smooth out the ride in order to avoid the roadside PITA of a broken spring, instead having a potential trade-off of quicker tire wear and lower towing mpg.
I was lucky that my issue was noticed at a Love's with a newly built, adjacent RV Stop RV park which featured large, newly poured cement pads, new luxury showers, power and quiet sleep. Also, a local, Good-Ole Boy RV shop/contractor who had the pair of springs to get me home and did not bend me over the cash register. Your mileage may vary should this happen to you. I am doing everything I can to make sure I do not end up in this predicament again. At minimum, I recommend buying a spare spring (or two) to carry with you on every trip. Ironically, ScubaRX and I had this exact discussion not more than two weeks earlier (after meeting another E2 owner in Quartzsite who had broken a spring) and I was planning to order a pair of springs to carry as spares once I got home...UGH.
Best wishes, Lance
Spring Team <springteam@saintlouisspring.com>
Fri, Mar 1, 9:06 AM (6 days ago)
to me
We can definitely makes this for you and would be made here with American steel, however we would need a sample to duplicate and a lot of times on these travel trailers we make them heavier by adding a leaf to each.ThanksThe Spring TeamSt. Louis Spring CompanyTel: 314-533-2132-
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My new springs arrived today. I confirmed measurements are correct and that they are the same size as what my E2 had when it shopped from the factory. Should be a direct bolt-in.
Here are the specs on the new springs:
-Made in USA with USA sourced 5160 spring steel
-Bronze eye bushings vs. plastic
-2,000lb rating/ea vs. 1,750 (will not change gvwr as axles/bearings remain determining factor)-5 leaves vs, 4-second leaf extends underneath eye on each end (protecting common break area)-steel, bolted spring keepers (one each end) vs a single, sheet metal band-width = 1.75"-drop = 3”-length (eye-to-eye) = 25.25”
The company I sourced them from is ALCAN. They are known for durable offroading springs and have been building custom springs for rock crawlers and overlanding vehicles for decades. Attached below is their contact info. Ask for Mike and tell him you are interested in the 1.75” wide trailer springs like he sold to Lance from Colorado.
I will report back when I have them installed, but that may not be for a couple months until after the snow melts up here in the Rockies-
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Made in USA leaf springs
in Mechanical & Technical Tips
Posted
I think the answer you got is technically correct, but I do not believe the axle assemblies provided to Oliver by Dexter contain spring packs manufactured by the Dexter Parent company. For example, the springs on my trailer were stamped “EMCO”. If you do a google search you will find that while EMCO is a US based company, they have a 200,000 sq ft Spring plant in the Hebei Province in China which serves the US market. At least for my trailer, I am fairly certain this was the manufacturing plant for my Springs.
https://emcoind.com/about-us/