AC upgrade conundrum

[Ronbrink]

1 hour ago, Shawna and Scott said:

Are there any modifications needed to attach to the Oliver? When I questioned about upgrading to the Truma I was told that it needed a platform to sit on, available thru Oliver. Other fiberglass work was involved.

I would think not, regarding additional platform/fiberglass support. There would be some wiring mods (no wall thermostat) and the condensate drains rooftop; remains to be seen if there will be a mod to adapt the Oliver’s thru-hull drain line. 

Edited June 18 by Ronbrink

[Ronbrink]

1 hour ago, rideadeuce said:

Which is great since R-410A is going to be retired and R-32 is much more efficient.

According to product specifications, the GREE and ECO-COOL both use R410.

[rideadeuce]

5 hours ago, Ronbrink said:

According to product specifications, the GREE and ECO-COOL both use R410

Not according to the Eco Cool/Gree user manual. ECO-COOL_Users_Manual.pdf

Am I reading this wrong?

Edited June 18 by rideadeuce

[jd1923]

20 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Buying anything that increases the trailer height would not be a positive move for many of us.  Weight, width, length all to a point, would be less so.

GJ

You went 2.4" lower with your Houghton. The Atmos is only 0.9" tall than the OEM Dometic Penguin II. I guess if you have a 10 FT garage door another 1" would matter, otherwise not. Ours is parked outdoors. I'll trade the inch for a more battery efficient AC system.

[jd1923]

36 minutes ago, rideadeuce said:

Not according to the Eco Cool/Gree user manual...

I read on the Sprinter Forum that the Gree Eco Cool used to be R-410a but switched to R32. I could not find a Gree on Amazon, but Tosot was there. Note this listing states R-410A, so be careful with any online purchase. It appears as @Ronbrink stated R32 is preferred/more efficient, less battery amperage.

Does anybody understand the relationship between Dreiha Atmos 4.4, Gree Eco-Cool and Tosot? 

Amazon.com: TOSOT GO COOL RV Air Conditioner 15000 BTU, Non-Ducted Camper Rooftop AC Unit with Heat Pump, High-Efficiency EER 8.5, WiFi and Remote Control : Automotive 

[CRM]

50 minutes ago, rideadeuce said:

Not according to the Eco Cool/Gree user manual. ECO-COOL_Users_Manual.pdf

Am I reading this wrong?

From what I've been told, ALL new air conditioner and refrigeration units must be R32 starting Jan 1st 2025. Probably going to see some good deals on 410a units before then, but I'm waiting until next year to purchase a new AC unit for our Ollie.

[jd1923]

The Spec PDF on this page shows R410 for the Gree Eco-Cool:
ECO-COOL White Free Blow (premierproducts.net)

I wouldn't wait 'til next year, given a white R32 model can be purchased this year. New year price increases are pretty much industry standard. This one is certainly available in R32 with the WHITE version TBD "stocked within 8 weeks."

[rideadeuce]

42 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

Tosot was there. Note this listing states R-410A,

I agree you must be careful buying on Amazon but the current Tosot AC on their website is R-32. Probably the best thing to do is buy direct or from official distributors (Atmos 4.4) like the one in Indiana that I believe @Ronbrink is purchasing from. There are other option though if you do your homework and are willing to take the risk to save a little money. But I do believe they are all the same units manufactured by the same company. I think the 410 use is in older manufactured units. Would be my guess. Anyway, hope to see the R-32 version in a Oliver soon!

Best,

Mike

Edited June 18 by rideadeuce

[CRM]

19 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

The Spec PDF on this page shows R410 for the Gree Eco-Cool:
ECO-COOL White Free Blow (premierproducts.net)

I wouldn't wait 'til next year, given a white R32 model can be purchased this year. New year price increases are pretty much industry standard. This one is certainly available in R32 with the WHITE version TBD "stocked within 8 weeks."

Yep. if you know this is the unit you want, then no sense waiting.

[rideadeuce]

As of now, SDG is who I would buy from $1350 shipped. 

https://www.sdgelkhart.com/dreiha-4-4

Edited June 18 by rideadeuce

[Ronbrink]

3 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

Am I reading this wrong?

I referenced the Technical Specifications for both the GREE and ECO-COOL, as posted online, with the same findings as @jd1923. Your reference material could be up-to-date information.

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, rideadeuce said:

As of now, SDG is who I would buy from $1350 shipped. 

https://www.sdgelkhart.com/dreiha-4-4

But I really like COOL logo! 🤣

[Geronimo John]

8 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

Anyway, hope to see the R-32 version in a Oliver soon!

If it does, then the higher flammability of R-32, "Confined Space of an Ollie, and higher Toxicity of the R32 likely will require AUTOMATIC mitigation systems.  For residential units, they are talking about leak detection and auto exhaust/circulation fans to mitigate these known concerns.  Until all that happens, then likely we'll run another generation of the R410a units.  Unlike R-12, there will be service availability of R-410 to at least 2030 one source indicated.   Regardless if you have the training and several machines using R-410A, you can still purchase it without an HVAC License.  However, some things are best left to those that do.  

GJ 

[jd1923]

The claim is R32 is more efficient. I can give a flying fart if it is better for those who believe in climate conspiracies. I used to buy R12 for $4 a can at any AP store. Gone are the days of freedom in lieu of .gov regulations of those who know better (or not). If it is more efficient, then green science has produced something of value. R410 was never claimed to be more efficient than good ol' R12, cheap and capable. 

[jd1923]

Our hull has the Dometic Penguin II, and I believe it being an older hull has the 13.5K BTU model vs. the 11K of newer hulls. Our electrical panel has a 20A breaker for the AC. Can we assume my hull has 12 AWG wiring? (14 AWG should have a 15A breaker.) 14 AWG wiring can be an issue re voltage dropat high fan compressor running in any replacement unit.

[rideadeuce]

8 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

If it does, then the higher flammability of R-32, "Confined Space of an Ollie, and higher Toxicity of the R32 likely will require AUTOMATIC mitigation systems.  For residential units, they are talking about leak detection and auto exhaust/circulation fans to mitigate these known concerns.  Until all that happens, then likely we'll run another generation of the R410a units.  Unlike R-12, there will be service availability of R-410 to at least 2030 one source indicated.   Regardless if you have the training and several machines using R-410A, you can still purchase it without an HVAC License.  However, some things are best left to those that do.  

GJ 

See below

 

Edited June 19 by rideadeuce

[rideadeuce]

This is what I pieced together after some reading.

According to Daikin,

R-32 is the most balanced refrigerant in terms of Environmental Impact/Energy Efficiency/Safety/Cost-Effectiveness for Stationary Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps.

Estimates 230 million units sold worldwide since 2022.

Different from R22 and R410A, the R32 is slightly flammable. But combustion will not occur unless three critical conditions are met, refrigerant concentration, constant oxygen, and an ignition source. In real practice, it's hard to meet all the combustion conditions.

R-32 is not self supporting of a flame hence the A2L classification. 

The A2L subgroup, as categorized by ASHRAE Standard 34, are a class of refrigerants that have lower toxicity and flammability (flame propagation speed is less than 10 cm/s) compared to other classifications — A = non-toxic, 2 = flammable, L = low burning velocity — making it the second-safest refrigerant category.

As Oliver owners using units that are self-contained and sealed they should never need a recharge, which also lessens the likelihood of a leak.

International Standard ISO 817 defines 2 toxicity classes for refrigerants: Class A – Lower Chronic Toxicity and Class B – Higher Chronic Toxicity.

R32 is categorized as Class A. In general speak, Class A refrigerants are called non toxic and Class B are called toxic.

All refrigerant are toxic in that they can displace oxygen so ALL refrigerants need extra care.

Lastly, they won't be manufacturing any more 410a units after 12/24. 


Best, 

Mike

Not a tree hugger but we do want to preserve the biosphere we live in.

 

https://www.daikin.com/air/daikin_techknowledge/benefits/r-32

https://www.griffithenergyservices.com/articles/goodbye-r410-hello-a2l-understanding-the-r410-phaseout-new-2023-efficiency-standards

Edited June 19 by rideadeuce

[CRM]

7 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

If it does, then the higher flammability of R-32, "Confined Space of an Ollie, and higher Toxicity of the R32 likely will require AUTOMATIC mitigation systems.  For residential units, they are talking about leak detection and auto exhaust/circulation fans to mitigate these known concerns.  Until all that happens, then likely we'll run another generation of the R410a units.  Unlike R-12, there will be service availability of R-410 to at least 2030 one source indicated.   Regardless if you have the training and several machines using R-410A, you can still purchase it without an HVAC License.  However, some things are best left to those that do.  

GJ 

The EPA approved R-32 for use in window units back in 2015. It's also a component of R-410A which is just a 50-50 mix of R-32 and R-125 so we all already have some R-32 in our Ollies.

[Ronbrink]

10 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Can we assume my hull has 12 AWG wiring?

You should be able to look at the backside of the breaker panel and see the color of the romex wiring feeding into it; yellow 12, white 14. At least that’s what I was able to do in my 2020, all 12/2 to be exact. 

[Geronimo John]

8 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

This is what I pieced together after some reading.

I trust your homework.  It's better than what I took the time to better research.  Well done.

Only 2 items that maybe needs a relook; 

The first is that all sealed units don't need recharging in the real world. Leaks can and do occurr.  As the units age the coils often age out before other components.  Any such normal service may involve pump down and recharge after repairs.

The second is the statement about phase out of all R410A units.  There appears to be a carve out for our stype of units, at least according to the HVAC School site:     

https://hvacrschool.com/r-410a-phase-down-update/#:~:text=Details of EPA Final Rule&text=This rule contains restrictions on,-year sell-through perio

Details of EPA Final Rule:         https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/10/24/2023-22529/phasedown-of-hydrofluorocarbons-restrictions-on-the-use-of-certain-hydrofluorocarbons-under-the

"The EPA published its final rule on October 24th, 2023. This rule contains restrictions on the use of HFCs starting in 2025. Self-contained HVAC systems using R-410A will no longer be manufactured or imported after January 1st, 2025, but there is a three-year sell-through period.  Self-contained or packaged units can be sold, exported, and installed through January 1st, 2028."

Regardless, I think it prudent to buy a R30 unit as suggested... whether a tree hugger or not.  🙂   

Thanks for the schooling on the topic.  

GJ

[rideadeuce]

31 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

The first is that all sealed units don't need recharging in the real world. Leaks can and do occurr.  As the units age the coils often age out before other components.  Any such normal service may involve pump down and recharge after repairs.

The second is the statement about phase out of all R410A units. 

It's like my sealed transmission in the Tundra just not worth the effort if it goes bad, just replace it with another sealed unit IMO and Toyotas. The refrigerant side of things for a sealed unit is not manufactured to be serviceable. Second, I amended my last statement to state the manufacturing of 410a (not the selling of) units will stop at the end of this year. Phaseout sell-off of inventory is a given. 

@GJ definitely not trying to school anyone, I just felt like there was a bit of fear mongering with the statements concerning R-32. Although each refrigerant has strong and weak characteristics. I feel like there is a lot more positives to converting than not to which I didn't even get to: 30-40% more efficient, GWP 2/3s less than R410a... bottom line better for the planet without much drawbacks IMO.

Cheers mate! On to putting up new MaxxFan shroud/shade with LED light in the cabin.

[jd1923]

Update from SDG on the Atmos 4.4 --

[jd1923]

Follow-up from Kevin and SDG --

[jd1923]

8 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

It's like my sealed transmission in the Tundra just not worth the effort if it goes bad, just replace it with another sealed unit IMO and Toyotas.

Not exactly! When I've had a bad RV AC unit, after disconnecting the 4 mounting bolts in the interior, we (my son Adam) will climb up rooftop and heave the POS (usually a Dometic unit) to the gravel drive below. I tell my son lovingly, just hit the gravel and nothing else! Sorry @Geronimo John, re your comment, these are closed systems and NOBODY services a leak, you just replace the unit with something better on the market today, as we have ALL been discussing!

Truck transmissions are another story! The "Sealed Transmission" 100K+ warranty is merely marketing hype. You better service these, unless you are the guy who trades up every few years (that guy is NOT me). Our '08 Lexus GX 4.7l V8 trans is "sealed" no dipstick, no way to ad trans oil from above... Soon after we purchased of this truck at 160K mile, I pulled the pan, replaced the filter and via the trans cooler hoses, with a funnel/gravity feed, I replaced 98% of the trans fluid. Do this service to yours prior to 100K miles. Toyo gas engines with proper care can last 500K miles, only to be compared to a Cummins diesel! Our GX will outlive me for sure and in another 20K miles I will do the timing belt/water pump service required on all Toyos! most qualified service stations can do this for you, just need to ask! 🤣

We also have a 2000 Lincoln LS (Jaguar platform, bought it 4 years ago with only 11K miles, OMG an awesome small sedan!) with the "sealed trans." I worked that service last fall. It is not any easy service. You need to fill the trans from under the truck, checking level at proper temp at the special drain valve.

Use it, maintain it, or lose it. They want you to lose it, so you purchase another. Not me. We don't buy into the deep state of .gov and the companies that are only in it for war and money. Again... 🤣! Love you guys, y'all are great!

Edited June 20 by jd1923
stuff

[Geronimo John]

The flaw in much of the above opinions is assuming that the A/C unit will remain on high fan.  In reality if you arrive at a hot trailer you want the unit to run on high fan (To drop temperature) and then as the temperature falls, the have the unit automatically cycle the fan down to a low speeds.  Granted it will not get the humidity as low as a perfectly right sized unit that runs 24/7 can.   But it certainly is the best control path for the vast majority of users.  This is precisely how, and why, most vehicle A/C systems are designed.

I agree that a smaller unit can dehumidify better than a larger one.  Also that a larger one can cool down a hot trailer faster.  But to say which is better is a fallacy.  Why?  It depends:  

1. If we stay in our trailer all day and are using shore power: I would buy the smaller sized unit to run 24/7.  
2. If we are in hot and/or humid conditions, and are not in the trailer all day, especially without shore power, the bigger unit has the edge because you have a LOT of latent heat to dissipate.

Sort of like the "Spring Fiasco", the right decision absolutely depends on how YOU use YOUR rig.  There is no one right answer that fits all situations for this topic as well. 

In my case, I want the quietest unit available.  I want high capacity as we are a "Type 2" customer.  For those reasons the Houghton 13.5 was my pick.  I went into the purchase knowing that a simple relay would fix the continuous running fan problem and suspecting that moving the thermistor would fix the cycling issue.  But I'm a DIY guy and can fix them.  I'm not going to trumpet the Houghton for most owners as that is not something that many could or would not want to take on.  Also, until I have personally executed the two mods I have no real world basis to report their success or failure.  If the Mods work, as my 50 years as a M.E. tells me they will, then that is a different situation.  Just have to get to my rig in July to make it happen.   

I believe that making changes to our OE2's needs to be done cautiously and with study.  If you have the luxury of time, I would not be buying an A/C just yet.  Let the pioneer DIYers do their thing and report back in the Fall their real world experiences for how they used their trailers and how their A/C performed.    Also let the new guys on the block get an opportunity to find the bugs in their units as well.    

GJ