Composting toilet

[trumpetguy]

A connection would need to be made between the two tanks somewhere inside the coach area.  That would allow gray water to fill one tank then overflow into the black tank.

[Laps]

A connection would need to be made between the two tanks somewhere inside the coach area. That would allow gray water to fill one tank then overflow into the black tank.

 

I'm hoping that as more interest in the Natures Head is generated, and by the posts here, that the factory would engineer that into place. And such a connection, which seems would be easy and straightforward to install, would have the option of an on/off connection between the two tanks.

[rideandfly]

I may be misunderstanding the video in Laps post, sounded like by installing the valve on the combined black/grey tanks drain, you can auto level from grey to black tank on his RV. Description starting at 1:45 into the video using his method.

 

[Overland]

I thought the connection in the Wynn's video was the common drain and that they just put a third valve on the end.  Or maybe I misunderstood what they did, or misunderstand how the Oliver's tanks are connected.

 

Oliver needs to let me 'borrow' a trailer for a while so I can properly research these things.

 

 

 

edit - looks like Bill beat me to it!

[rideandfly]

A connection would need to be made between the two tanks somewhere inside the coach area. That would allow gray water to fill one tank then overflow into the black tank.

 

Even though I'm not interested in installing this type of toilet, y'all have me interested in learning more about black/grey water tanks.

 

Looked at our Ollie and the bottom of the black water tank is level with the top of the grey water tank. Does not look like gravity flow from the grey tank to black tank will work between tanks. A drop suction tube with check valve could be placed in the top of the grey tank, 12V water pump placed in line to transfer water from grey water tank through a drop tube placed in the top of the black water tank.

 

The closest valve is the black water tank, the black water tank is to the left of the valve with 2 to 3" of fall to valve. The other valve is the grey water back flow valve:

[Laps]

trumpetguy wrote:

A connection would need to be made between the two tanks somewhere inside the coach area. That would allow gray water to fill one tank then overflow into the black tank.

Even though I’m not interested in installing this type of toilet, y’all have me interested in learning more about black/grey water tanks. Looked at our Ollie and the bottom of the black water tank stops at the top of the grey water tank. Does not look like gravity flow from the grey to black tank will work between tanks unless the front of the Ollie is very low. A drop suction tube with check valve could be placed in the top of the grey tank, 12V water pump placed in line to transfer water from grey water tank through a drop tube placed in the top of the black water tank. The closest valve is the black water tank, the black water tank is to the left of the valve with 2 to 3″ of fall to valve. The other valve is the grey water back flow valve:  

 

 

 

Well what I thought might be a simple solution on the part of the factory has now become more clouded.  I'm really wondering why they would offer the Natures Head as an option, if the black tank is not accessible to be used as an auxiliary tank to the gray?  In which case the black tank becomes totally useless except to serve as a further retro grade option for installing a wet toilet.  Sure wish the factory would comment further.

 

 

[rideandfly]

I may have misunderstood the systems in my observations, also. Between the folks here on the forum and at the factory, I'm confident someone will shed light on your question.

 

 

 

 

 

[SeaDawg]

I suspect, with a few modifacations, the black tank might be easily modified to take the sink water. The shower water would likely be another story, though much more possible, than, say, retrofitting the kitchen sink to flow uphill to the black tank....

 

The problem is, the Ollie has a "marine bath." Like most marine baths (even the large head in our sailboat, with a separate shower compartment), there's a curb to create drainage, and a stepup to the toilet to allow some space for the black tank. And, the inlet to the black tank is directly beneath the toilet. Who wants another nonfactory inlet, subject to leaking?

 

In many of the big stickbuilt rvs, (actually, all the ones I've owned and rented over the years), the toilet is floor mounted, and the shower is elevated. The shower water could easily be diverted to the black, and maybe is, in a few cases.

 

The composting Nature's Head is, from my conversations with the reps, much more popular so far with boats than rvs. Why? Finding a legal pumpout station is much more difficult with a sailboat/houseboat than finding a dump station with an rv, in my humble opinion. We never have a tough time finding a dump station with the Ollie. Special trip (raise the anchor, go to a marina, etc.) with the boat is another story...

 

It's true, most of us who have purchased Olivers are likely to be lifetime owners. I suspect we are. But who knows? We're in for eight years so far... but?

 

If our trailer were not plumbed for a typically desired toilet, and we wanted a Nature's Head instead, we'd be forced to sell to a really narrow market in today's world if we decided to sell. Not ideal.

 

I think Oliver is wise right now to "duplicate" systems with extra plumbing and a black tank, inoperable, or perhaps linked only to the sink. At least you'll never be stuck with a really narrow resale market if you order the composting toilet.

 

By the way, when we looked at the Nature's Head, I think it was about $950, install it yourself. If that's still true today, I think Oliver is offering a great price at $800. Sure, you don't get the usual Thetford. But you get everything else, and a complete, pro installation with your new Nature's Head.

 

My 2 cents, and probably only worth that much.

 

Sherry

[Laps]

Sherry:

 

All very valid points some of which I am in agreement with and which I would have thought Oliver had already considered as being selling points, but at the same time they are not, IMHO, being considerate of those who, wanting to invest heavily into a TT, need all possible options both present and future. Thats why it seems too near sighted for them to engineer only a system that can be used "single sided" i.e., the composting toilet. If I'm going to invest in their product then both present and foreseeable value, options, and resale value should be very high priorities. Just sticking in a composting toilet, and charging accordingly, without considering those obvious issues regarding black tank utility, etc, just seemed a bit "rushed" to the market. I hope their engineers and development department consider further.

[donthompson]

Buzzy,

 

I agree with you.  While I'd love to camp in the Ollie without ever dumping the grey/black tanks, I don't find the task to be terribly onerous.  I purchased a clear Campco sewer hose adapter https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016V2JMBS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1  and upgraded my slinky hose after the sewer hose that came with the Ollie came apart as I was preparing to dump-luckily I hadn't opened the valve yet!

 

I've traveled 4,500 miles and camped over 40 nights in my Oliver since picking it up in Tennessee in March, 2016.  I have only waited in line once and then I was only behind one camper.

 

I don't like to rush the process, so I plan when and where I'll dump.  I like to fill the black tank about 3/4 full of fresh water at least twice after dumping the black and grey tanks.  The clear adapter allows me to see when I've done a good job of emptying and cleaning the black tank.  I haven't had any odor issues.  I try to use campground toilets and showers when available and I've very stingy with water when washing dishes, etc.

 

There may be better alternatives, but the standard toilet, black/grey tanks and dump valves serve their purpose.

 

 

 

Don

[Laps]

Thanks guys, and I appreciate your input, I guess I'll just hold out until Oliver engineers their approach to the composting toilet in a more practical and feasible option. Right now, I'm still perplexed. My plans for the use of the Oliver might be a bit extreme compared to the average owner, as I plan on weeks of boon docking, and have really no need to rush into buying into a yes proven, black tank wet toilet, but not practical choice for me. Campground facilities will be a rare option for my adventuring aspirations. I have spent weeks backpacking and tent camping in remote areas, but my desire for a travel trailer has called to me for quite some time, I hope that my patience will be rewarded.

[Overland]

Instead of trying to create more grey water storage, it seems to me like it would be easer and more practical to place an additional fresh water tank in place of the black tank.  Since the location is higher, all you'd have to do is extend the existing fill lines to the new tank and then add a gravity drain to the main tank.  Then you'd have over 50 gallons of fresh water storage.

 

 

[Laps]

Instead of trying to create more grey water storage, it seems to me like it would be easer and more practical to place an additional fresh water tank in place of the black tank. Since the location is higher, all you’d have to do is extend the existing fill lines to the new tank and then add a gravity drain to the main tank. Then you’d have over 50 gallons of fresh water storage.

 

 

That is a superb and practical solution. I'f I'm not mistaken I believe John E. Davies was wanting something similar when he stated:

"Just received an email from Christine. The NH toilet installation is in place of the standard flush toilet, but everything else in the black system remains – black tank, fresh and waste plumbing, dump valve, and shut-off valve. She said it is not practical to install a fresh water tank or storage underneath and it would be too hard and costly to install a regular toilet if the other parts were not there."

 

I would be totally in favor of an extra fresh water tank in place of the black water tank.

 

[Overland]

Well, I'm not sure I buy that.  I mean, from the photos I have, the black tank is easily accessible from the large access panel in the font seat of the dinette.  In fact, it looks like that's how you'd remove it for service if needed.  So to say that the space can't even be used for storage is a bit of a stretch.  Maybe they mean externally, but certainly the space can be accessed from the inside.  And they already have water running to it - for the cleanout - so there's room in there to get water.  In fact, looking at it, I don't see what the big deal is to have it all installed later if someone were to change their mind.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems straightforward to me.

 

Here's a photo, looking through the access panel at the dinette.  You can see the blue cleanout line to the left and of course the waste line to the right.  Take the waste line and the black tank out, and you've got a decent amount of space there to do with what you want.  Or, like I say, put in a secondary fresh water tank.

 

Of course a water tank in that location isn't the best from a weight distribution standpoint, so that's something that should really be considered.

[Overland]

I'm going for full Troublemaker Status here, but thinking about it even more, I'm wondering if by eliminating the black tank, you couldn't get larger tanks (plural), in their current location.  The reason I think that is that the waste line from the black tank is a straight shot from front to back, while the grey tank waste comes out the back of the tank and elbows over to connect to the main waste line.  Well, without the black tank, you don't need that front to back waste line, which takes up it looks like 4"-6" or so under the floor.  So without it, you could increase the width of the other two tanks, which would add a substantial amount to either or both, depending on how you wanted to split the difference.

[Laps]

I’m going for full Troublemaker Status here, but thinking about it even more, I’m wondering if by eliminating the black tank, you couldn’t get larger tanks (plural), in their current location. The reason I think that is that the waste line from the black tank is a straight shot from front to back, while the grey tank waste comes out the back of the tank and elbows over to connect to the main waste line. Well, without the black tank, you don’t need that front to back waste line, which takes up it looks like 4″-6″ or so under the floor. So without it, you could increase the width of the other two tanks, which would add a substantial amount to either or both, depending on how you wanted to split the difference.

 

Hopefully the factory engineers are following and digesting this topic/thread accordingly!

I have so bought into the composting toilet and the increase capacity for fresh water that there's no going back!

Oliver could be setting some true boon docking milestones by thinking "outside the box" and might even set an industry wide trend for the adventurers among the RV enthusiasts.

[Overland]

I agree, and prefer my second idea for that reason.  Like I said, putting a water tank where the black tank currently sits isn't the greatest place for all that weight.  It would have a big effect on the yaw inertia, which is the biggest factor in trailer stability.  At least the weight would be on the front though.  Veering way off topic, but it's the same reason I wish Oliver had a different solution for the spare tire instead of hanging it off the back.

 

Anyway, I don't think increasing the size of the current tanks would have too much effect on stability.  More weight, of course, but the effect on yaw would be negligible I'd think, and in fact, having a bit more weight at the bottom would lower the overall COG.  If you could add, say 5 gallons capacity, that's about 40lbs or so.  Replacing the black tank with fresh water, on the other hand, would be around 150lbs, and in a poor location.

 

But if you travel with empty tanks, then no problem.  Fill up last minute before heading out to the wilderness.

[Laps]

I hate when my whole post just spontaneously disappears as it did now.

 

Any way, my emphasis was on the distribution of weight as mentioned above.

 

As a pilot, I am very familiar with CG and pitch yaw and roll characteristics of a loaded airplane.

However, I am not an engineer, but I believe the effects on CG and yaw would be negligible, considering that the standards for tongue weight and GVWR are well established from vehicle to vehicle.

 

That said, there should not be a reason that full tanks, at the lowest CG, would have any effect whatsoever on the handling characteristics of the TT.

 

If the tongue weight maximums are met, then the "roll" limitations would easily be adjusted by minimal adjustments in the placement of the tanks.

 

As I suggested to Jason, at the time of my factory tour, that baffles could be used within the tanks, to minimize sudden weight transfer to the contained liquids, just as baffles are utilized in airplane wings containing fuel.

 

I'm really hoping the factory is following this thread.

 

[Overland]

So long as we're talking bout the existing tanks, located toward the center, I think you're correct.  But if you add weight towards the ends of the trailer, regardless of how high its placed, then you really will alter the stability of the trailer.  Here's a good demonstration of that...

 

 

I actually find trailer dynamics to be pretty interesting.  The fact that you're towing the trailer from a hitch rather than like a fifth wheel changes the game entirely, since you've created a double pendulum.  And the dynamics of a double pendulum are chaotic; so when towing, you're essentially just trying to keep everything within the tipping point of it all going haywire.  Fun!

 

The key is in keeping the energy of the pendulum lower than the tipping point, which of course means controlling its inertia through speed, mass and distribution of mass.  If you're interested, here are some good pages on trailer dynamics...

 

http://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/caravan-dynamics/

 

https://caravanchronicles.com/guides/understanding-the-dynamics-of-towing/

 

It's amazing how complex it is.  One of the really interesting things about a high yaw inertia is that though it's dangerous once in motion, so long as it's under control it makes the trailer feel very stable, because of course the weight actually resists sway.  Once you get it going, though...   That makes me a little nervous when people talk about how stable Olivers are, lol.  But in truth, I think even the Legacy II is compact enough that it can't possibly have the same yaw inertia as the big boys.  If I start to get nervous about it, I just look at this photo and I'm back in my happy place...

 

[John E Davies]

Hi Everyone, I have been away for a while. I appear to have stuck my stick into a hornet's nest and I apologize to everyone, including the employees at Oliver, if I came across as angry. I was a little bit pissed for a while. I feel better now.

 

I still believe that there should be a very simple way to add a fresh tank and a gravity feed line (with ball valve, check valve and drain) in place of the black tank. I did not know that the bottom of the black tank is so high, that is good. Operation would be easy peasy - just wait for the main tank to get below half full, open the ball valve and empty the aux tank into it.

 

An owner could easily remove the section of pipe between the black tank and the slide valve, and then fabricate an adapter to go between the big waste outlet to a standard PEX nipple. If there had never been any waste in that tank, there is no reason to not use it for fresh water, considering that it already has a fresh fill system and vent installed. ABS tanks are fine for storage of potable water, building codes do prohibit ABS pipes under pressure.

 

HOWEVER, after some research I decided that Oliver could not do this particular mod there at the factory, since the RV codes prohibit any interconnection between a potable water system and a drain system. Period. They would have no way to get around that certification barrier while using the existing parts. But, if they simply never installed all those pesky black water parts and gave us a fresh tank there, then there would be no hurdles to certification.

 

The current codes are expensive but you can read the 2015 version online here, after registering. .....  http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards?mode=code&code=1192

 

As far as yaw goes, it is a non-issue since the trailer already is stable with the black tank full. Having a full fresh tank there will not change the dynamics. Oliver might want to post a placard at the water pump switches stating that the aux tank water should be consumed by transferring it to the main tank (or drained) before towing when the main tank is low, just for liability reasons. When all the fresh tanks are full, I see no problem at all.

 

I really hope that Oliver will address this issue. My main goal in getting an Ollie is to live off grid completely when camping. I can easily  dispose of gray water using a garden hose, if I have to. I need abundant fresh water, and the composting toilet will really help conservation. If I can't get extra fresh water tankage, then please give me a slide out tray so I can keep stuff under the toilet. With a false panel across it, it would be a dandy secret storage area for valuables.

 

As far as making sure that the trailer can easily be retrofitted with a traditional stinkpot toilet ....  all I can say is that it is NOT their problem, but the buyer's, so do not dictate based on a hypothetical future resale value. This attitude says "We are not sure of this technology and we are not ready to commit to it."

 

I say, "Embrace new technology, and go where the other companies fear to tread." This includes exploring ways to dump the propane umbilical completely by offering marine grade diesel heating and cooking appliances, DC compressor fridge, and a real Offroad Package that includes a taller suspension with independent A-arms, airbags (or coils) and skid plates.

 

OK, maybe that stuff will not happen anytime soon, but I do think lots of people would pay for a durable, superbly engineered offroad camper. There are countless ones in Australia, but nothing at all here, other than some cool teardrops like the Moby1. ...  http://moby1trailers.com/moby1-xtr/

 

THIS is what I want to see under an Ollie:

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[Laps]

I am very hopeful, i.e. optimistic, that indeed the Oliver engineers will find a solution to the concerns and recommendations voiced in this thread.  They have to work within the regulatory RV codes of course, but for the time being I'm still saving my nickels and dimes for that new Ollie.  By that time.....

[Overland]

John, I don't know if you'll be able to get Oliver to build a different suspension - though I'd line up right behind you if they did.  The good news on that front is that the Oliver suspension is built on a subframe that can be easily detached, and therefore replaced with whatever suspension you wish to have built.  That's money of course, but if you want what you want...

 

Same is true for the toilet.  You can always just get your Oliver and then swap out whatever you want.  Tanks of various sizes are easy to find, and the pex connections easy to DIY.  I do think that the cassette option would have been difficult only because of where the toilet sits relative to the curves of the trailer; i.e., I'm not sure you could get an access door where you'd want it.

 

Anyway, I do sense that the RV and travel trailer world is undergoing something of a transformation at the moment.  The traditional travel trailer market is for retired highway cruisers camping with hookups - and that's the context in which the two Olivers were designed.  The market is shifting though to younger buyers who are looking for a bit more adventure.  It's lucky that the Olivers are built tough enough that people like us would even consider them, but unfortunate that the fiberglass construction limits the requests they can accommodate.

 

I'd be all over an Oliver "Expedition" package with the features we'd like to see, even if it's a only light version of what we really want.  Who knows, maybe there are enough of us here already to make it happen.

[Laps]

"The market is shifting though to younger buyers who are looking for a bit more adventure."

 

I've been an 'adventurer' all my life and at my present not so young age of 64 I am more than happy to be included in the new RV

demographic! And it is my primary reason to remaining enthusiastic about the future offerings of Oliver. Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the 4 corners, and Alaska won't be quite the same in a tent with a sleeping pad and -10 degree sleeping bag, and my not so old, nor quite young, attitude welcomes the accommodations and innovations that Oliver will bring.

[John E Davies]

PVC tanks are cheap. This place will make a custom tank from your dimensions in just a few days. They cut out the panels and weld them together.

 

http://www.all-rite.com/custom-holding-water-tanks-p-103.html

 

They don't quote prices, but this site has a list of standard tanks and they are quite reasonable in the 15 to 20 gallon size. Theirs are roto-molded like a Hobie kayak rather than welded, which is stronger but not really necessary for this application. I don't think the shipping would be very high either.

 

Does anyone have a good picture of the Oliver black tank so we can see what it looks like? Is the quoted 18 gallon capacity the useable amount, or the "full to the toilet" amount?

 

Any idea how the tank is held down?

 

How hard is it to reach the vent pipe and flush line attachments?

 

Depending on what the black tank looks like, I would probably be willing to do this mod myself.... It's not rocket science.

 

The only thing that makes me worry is getting the water to the existing tank. For a gravity drain to work, you would need a new fitting on the main tank, located at least an inch below the aux tank bottom fitting. You could have somebody spin weld a pvc pipe fitting in place IF access is good enough to get a router in there.

 

 

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/Spin-Weld-Fittings-p/vts-344.htm

 

If you can't do that, then you would have to go to a transfer pump design and take the water up into the fill hose for the main tank. That is getting a lot more complicated.

 

I bet Oliver could add an extra tank fitting during the build for very little cost or effort.

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[Laps]

"If you can’t do that, then you would have to go to a transfer pump design and take the water up into the fill hose for the main tank. That is getting a lot more complicated."

 

A separate transfer pump is probably the answer. The additional fittings wouldn't be complicated.