Solar charger not working. Hull #178, Blue Sky system.

[Buzzy]

David,

 

That video is excellent!  I do not remember it being available last summer.  Thank you for posting!

 

Buzzy

[geokeg]

Update on my solar charging situation.  I got a call back from Ryan at Blue Sky who took Boz's place for troubleshooting support.  Prior to his call I inspected the wiring hook ups to the controller and they looked and felt secure.  I then carefully tried to insert the controller into the box clearing any interferance that I could while monitoring charger output.  I was able to get the cover on and all 4 screws firmly engaged but not enough to compress the cover onto the components and wiring and the charging operation continued.  For now I figured "close enough" and then put a couple of strips of gorilla tape over the cover to the box to prevent movement if the screws back off, (unlikely).  I will continue to monitor for normal operation, but did think that I could use 1/4" spacers and longer screws as more of a final home brew solution if I don't see any more anomolies.  Ryan thought that I might have a soft solder joint from the prior compression interferance.  If I have another anomolie I will probably send him the controller for inspection and repair.

 

I think ultimately that Oliver has an opportunity to make an improvement in its installation drawings relative to wiring routing and clearances of components since this condition has occured for others.

 

More as it develops.

 

George

[Buzzy]

George,

 

That is disappointing.  I suspect Ryan will be able to help.  Last summer when I worked with Boz, each of my emails had pictures to aid him in guiding me.  Just a thought.

 

Buzzy

[topgun2]

Since DavidS was kind enough to post a Battery Charge Status chart for the Trojan AGM batteries, I thought that there just might be others that would be interested in a similar chart for the Trojan T-105's.  So, here it is!

 

Bill

 

[DavePhelps]

OK, now I don't get this.

 

Buzzy said: "I asked the question regarding your battery choice for a reason. Please keep in mind you must never allow the controller to equalize your AGMs. That process will fry your batteries and they would need to be replaced."

 

But Lifeline Batteries says this about their AGM's:

 

http://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10/can-i-equalize-agm-batteries/

So what am I missing here? I'm off to AM Solar tomorrow to have my system checked out to be sure everything is set up properly. The Blue Sky manual(s) have been very difficult for me to navigate.

 

The truth is out there somewhere... I hope :-) !!

[SeaDawg]

That is interesting. Six years ago, we switched to agm batteries. I don't think we've ever equalized them, but I'll ask Paul.. I know I have not, and monitoring the batteries is usually my job...

They haven't held a charge as well the last camping season. Past due for replacement, anyway.

Sherry

[Buzzy]

Dave,

 

It is important to understand the requirements for your specific brand and model of battery.  Since I use the black case AGM Trojan batteries, I contacted the technical support engineer at the Trojan Battery Company.  Her name is:  Stacey Delzeit, Technical Support Engineer, Trojan Battery Company, Tel: (478) 845-7707, sdelzeit@trojanbattery.com

 

The paragraph below is just one section of our communication.

I also noted on page 22 of your Trojan Batteries User’s Guide you state I should NEVER equalize deep-cycle AGM batteries.  Is that true for my batteries?  

This is true.  AGMs should never be equalization as the overcharge condition would cause the internal pressure relief valve to open allowing the battery to “dry out.”

If so, I would need to adjust the parameters for the solar controller.  I also have installed the Progressive Dynamics Power Control Center which regulates shore and/or generator power going to the batteries.  That device also has an automated equalization procedure.  Should that be turned off as well? 

Yes.  Never EQ AGM batteries.

(It is important to note, I have not made any adjustment on the Progressive Dynamics Power Control Center inverter which also initiates an equalization process since I do not use shore power.  If that approach were to change, I would seek assistance from their technical support engineer.)

 

By the way, as I worked with Boz at Blue Sky he recommended I work with Stacey on “fine tuning” the battery parameters within the IPN ProRemote Monitor for my specific batteries.  Stacey guided me and I can post her guidance for those who seek to adjust their parameters.  Just ask.

 

Buzzy

[Buzzy]

They haven’t held a charge as well the last camping season. Past due for replacement, anyway. Sherry

 

Sherry,

 

The nice aspect of posting the chart, which DavidS created in this thread above, is the ability to easily check battery health.  I use that information all the time.  You just need to correlate it to Battery Capacity and Battery Amp/Hr from Full.

 

Buzzy

[Try2Relax]

Dave, you mentioned Lifeline batteries, those are the ONLY AGM batteries that can be equalized, because of how they make them. If you replaced the Trojans with Lifelines then you would be okay, but otherwise never equalize.

[GrayGhost]

Buzzy- I would like to see the parameters Stacey helped you with. Would you mind posting? Thanks.

[Buzzy]

GrayGhost,

 

OK, the discussion on the battery parameters is below. ( First off, for those who are reading along and new to manipulating the parameters within the IPN ProRemote Monitor, review page 3 in the manual.)

 

 

 

Hi Stacey,

 

I have four of your 6V-AGM Dual-Purpose AGM batteries (black case).  I also have a 320 Watt Photovoltaic Array which is controlled by the Blue Sky Energy Solar Boost 2512i(X)-HV Controller and the IPN ProRemote Monitor.  I am in the process of configuring the solar controller and the Blue Sky technical support representative suggested I contact you prior to adjusting the battery parameters from the factory defaults to the AGM specific values.

 

First off there are two parameters which I adjusted to match what I believe is appropriate for my four AGMs.

1.       Set Battery Amp Hours = 400AH (The factory default was set at 220AH)

2.       Set Self Discharge Rate in Percent per Month at 25 degree C. = 2% (The factory default was set at 12%)

Do the adjusted values look appropriate?  #1 is great.  5% is a better estimate for #2.

 

The solar controller has eight Battery Charge Parameters which are software programmable settings.

1.      Set Acceptance Charge Voltage Setpoint.  Range 10.0 to 80.0V (Factory default = 14.4V)  14.4 is fine

2.       Set Float Charge Voltage Setpoint.  Range 10.0 to 80.0V (Factory default = 13.4V)  13.5

3.       Set Equalize Voltage Setpoint.  Range 10.0 to 80.0V (Factory default = 15.2V) No equalization for AGMs

4.       Set Equalize Time.  Range 0.5 to 10 hours (Factory default = 2.0hrs)

5.       Set Days between automatic Equalize.  Range is 10 to 400days.  Full MANUAL equalization is selected by a setting of less than 10 days. (Factory default = 30days)

6.       Set Charge Voltage Temperature Compensation Factor.  Range is -0.00 to -8.00mV/degree C/cell.  (Factory default = -5.00mV/C/C)  This is fine.

7.       Set Float Transition Current.  Range 0.1 to 10.0A per 100AH.  A setting of 0 (zero) disables function such that full charge is based on acceptance charge time only.  (Factory Default = 1.5A/100AH)  This is fine

8.       Set Acceptance Charge Time.  Range 0.0 to 10.0 hours (Factory Default = 2.0hrs)  Between 2 and 4 hours.  Use the low end if the batteries are discharged less than 30%...the high end if they are discharged more than 50%.

Do you have any recommendations for altering the default settings?  Noted above.

 

In particular, do you have a preference for the transition from acceptance (absorption) to float to be based on AH or time period for my batteries?  1.5 A / 100AH means that the batteries are accepting current equal to 1.5% of their capacity.  This is a very good way of knowing the batteries are fully charged as batteries naturally accept less and less current as their state of charge increases due to changes in their internal resistance.

 

I made the adjustments on my IPN ProRemote Monitor based on Stacey's recommendations.  Please be certain you have the same make/model of batteries if you plan to use this guidance!

 

Circle back if questions arise.

 

Buzzy

 

PS - As previously stated, I deactivated the equalization process in both the parameters as well as the switch within the controller.

[topgun2]

Once again Buzzy's numbers are great.  BUT, does anyone have these same numbers for those of us that own the four Trojan T-105's lead-acid batteries?  I've asked Jason for them the day before yesterday, but have not received them - yet.

 

Bill

[GrayGhost]

Perfect- thank you....

[Try2Relax]

Table 7 on page 23

 

Trojan guide

 

Sorry, I would have attached but my new browser is finicky.

[KarenLukens]

So as an example, if the 320 watts of solar power is producing say about 18V, then 320W/18V= 17.78 amps. Aren’t solar systems fun?! Buzzy

I can tell you from first-hand experience it is possible to draw the battery charge (capacity) down to 8.1 volts. Since the controller requires a minimum of 9 volts to turn back on, how you resurrect the system can be a challenging experience. In other words, I would not recommend you try that aspect of knowledge acquisition. Please feel free to circle back if questions/concerns arise. Have a great camping trip. I have fond memories of kayak camping the San Juan islands of Puget Sound. Beautiful section of the country! Buzzy

 

A couple things - I was looking at the charts again and was seeing that the max charge voltage should be 14.4vdc on our 12vdc systems. So if you are seeing 18vdc is the Blue Sky Monitor using an excessive charge and need some different parameters set?

 

Here's the chart from Trojan's pdf

 

 

_______________________________________________

Next you say that you've taken it down to 8.1vdc and this will only work a few times before frying the control pannel inside the back of the Dometic Refridgerator. I had found out in our Casita that Karen's CPAP would run fine down to around 9.3vdc. But being that the Casita only had one battery, I could run it down this low just over night sometimes. This is one of our main reasons for switching to the 4 batteries in the Ellite II. Most of the time over night we wouldn't drop below 11vdc but then unknowingly when we had been stuck in rain for a week, I thought that I would test it again and it dropped to 9.3vdc over that one night and then the check light came on the fridge. It was around 11vdc when we went to bed and it had been pouring down on us all day. I found out from first hand experience that letting the voltage drop below 10.5vdc anytime will have negative varying circumstances on different items in our systems. On my fridge, I blew the relay on the main board. It was a simple plug and play board basically but still it was $175 for the new board. Both Casita and Oliver use the same fridge, so it's important to note that letting the voltage drop below 10.5vdc anytime will cause problems somewhere in our systems. Then letting it drop below 9.5vdc to many times will fry the main pannel in the fridge, causing it to go into limp mode, which is either run it on AC or DC because the relay that changes it over to run on propane has gone up in smoke... :)

 

This is from the Dometic Fridge owners manual, page 142 of the 2016 Oliver Ellite II on the Dometic Fridge -

 

 

Reed

[KarenLukens]

So as an example, if the 320 watts of solar power is producing say about 18V, then 320W/18V= 17.78 amps. Aren’t solar systems fun?! Buzzy

I can tell you from first-hand experience it is possible to draw the battery charge (capacity) down to 8.1 volts. Since the controller requires a minimum of 9 volts to turn back on, how you resurrect the system can be a challenging experience. In other words, I would not recommend you try that aspect of knowledge acquisition. Please feel free to circle back if questions/concerns arise. Have a great camping trip. I have fond memories of kayak camping the San Juan islands of Puget Sound. Beautiful section of the country! Buzzy

 

A couple things - I was looking at the charts again and was seeing that the max charge voltage should be 14.7vdc on our 12vdc systems. So if you are seeing 18vdc is the Blue Sky Monitor using an excessive charge and need some different parameters set?

 

Here's the chart from Trojan's pdf

 

[attachment file=52346]

 

_______________________________________________

Next you say that you've taken it down to 8.1vdc and this will only work a few times before frying the control pannel inside the back of the Dometic Refridgerator. I had found out in our Casita that Karen's CPAP would run fine down to around 9.3vdc. But being that the Casita only had one battery, I could run it down this low just over night sometimes. This is one of our main reasons for switching to the 4 batteries in the Ellite II. Most of the time over night we wouldn't drop below 11vdc but then unknowingly when we had been stuck in rain for a week, I thought that I would test it again and it dropped to 9.3vdc over that one night and then the check light came on the fridge. It was around 11vdc when we went to bed and it had been pouring down on us all day. I found out from first hand experience that letting the voltage drop below 10.5vdc anytime will have negative varying circumstances on different items in our systems. On my fridge, I blew the relay on the main board. It was a simple plug and play board basically but still it was $175 for the new board. Both Casita and Oliver use the same fridge, so it's important to note that letting the voltage drop below 10.5vdc anytime will cause problems somewhere in our systems. Then letting it drop below 9.5vdc to many times will fry the main pannel in the fridge, causing it to go into limp mode, which is either run it on AC or DC because the relay that changes it over to run on propane has gone up in smoke... :)

 

This is from the Fridge owners manual, page 142 of the 2016 Oliver Ellite II on the Dometic Fridge -

 

[attachment file=52349]

 

Reed

 

Server issues again... 3rd try at posting

[Buzzy]

Bill,

 

You touch upon an important issue.  At what point should an owner be reliant upon OTT for technical knowledge concerning a trailer component?   I would not expect Jason to have that knowledge and if he did, I would verify the figures with a Trojan Technical Support Engineer.

 

Randy,

 

Thank you for posting the link to the Trojan manual.  Keep in mind, my batteries are in a black case.  Last summer it appeared Trojan was selling multiple 6V AGM batteries and I would not assume the red case and black case AGMs used the same parameters.

 

Reed,

 

You may have accidentally omitted an important qualifier on my guidance.

 

“So as an example, if the 320 watts of solar power is producing say about 18V, then 320W/18V= 17.78 amps.  However; please keep in mind that in real world conditions, 320 watts of solar panels hardly ever produce their full power.”

 

Since I do not live in a southern state, nor do I tilt my panels to the sun, I would not expect to come anywhere near the 17.78 figure.  Over time I will be tracking this metric for my camping locations and energy use.  It may guide me if I seek to expand my solar array.

 

The issue regarding the fridge might be best discussed on a separate thread.

 

Buzzy

[DavidS]

PS – As previously stated, I deactivated the equalization process in both the parameters as well as the switch within the controller.

Great minds think alike. I also contacted Trojan and Blue Sky. Great technical support.

 

Ryan Gurin at Blue Sky said that

Equalization is factory default to "OFF", you would need to enable equalization by turning on a DIP switch on the controller, DIP # vary on which controller you are utilizing. Even if you press "Equalize now", nothing will happen without the DIP ON.

[Buzzy]

DavidS,

 

I sure hope the Blue Sky owners with the non-AGM batteries have taken note of your posting!

 

Buzzy

[KarenLukens]

<span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 1.5;">Reed, You may have accidentally omitted an important qualifier on my guidance. “So as an example, if the 320 watts of solar power is producing say about 18V, then 320W/18V= 17.78 amps. </span><strong style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 1.5;">However; please keep in mind that in real world conditions, 320 watts of solar panels hardly ever produce their full power.<span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 1.5;">” Since I do not live in a southern state, nor do I tilt my panels to the sun, I would not expect to come anywhere near the 17.78 figure. Over time I will be tracking this metric for my camping locations and energy use. It may guide me if I seek to expand my solar array. </span>

 

<span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 1.5;">The issue regarding the fridge might be best discussed on a separate thread. Buzzy

</span>

 

Sorry Buzzy, the first was just a question, so you're not seeing 18vdc? My question was, "So if you are seeing 18vdc is the Blue Sky Monitor using an excessive charge and need some different parameters set?" Now I'm wondering if you are seeing more then the 14.7vdc and is this normal and OK?

 

I'm sorry if it looked like I was trying to hijack the thread, that was never my intent.

 

The fridge low voltage information was just to give everyone some basic knowledge of the 9.6vdc battery low voltage cut off to not purposely try to go below. Because people don't normally think about circuit boards having low voltage issues and that includes myself... It was a costly and time consuming lesson learned because of my lack of knowledge at that time on our trailers inner workings.

 

I was just trying to help :)

 

Reed

[topgun2]

Buzzy et al,

 

I contacted Jason for this information for two reasons -

 

1:  Since Oliver must do the initial programming of the solar controller in each particular installation, I figured that they (he) would  have that information readily available.

 

2:  Since Trojan nor Blue Sky are the ones constructing the entire system, they do not necessarily have (nor would I expect them to have) these kind of input numbers.  I find it a bit surprising that they have been so accommodating, but, I'm certainly glad to hear that they are willing to work with individual Oliver owners.

 

When I get these numbers  (from whatever source) I will be certain to post them here so that other can have access to this information.

 

Bill

[DavidS]

1:  Since Oliver must do the initial programming of the solar controller in each particular installation, I figured that they (he) would  have that information readily available.

When I picked up my trailer Tommy Staggs did only one piece of programming for the Blue Sky during my orientation. He changed the Set Battery Amp Hours from the default of 220 AH to 400 AH, for my AGM batteries. I know this because Anita had suggested that I videotape as much of my orientation as possible because there is so much information to take in, and I recently reviewed this video when I was learning more about the Blue Sky system.

 

I strongly recommend people follow Anita's advice when picking up your Oliver!

[Buzzy]

Bill,

 

I understand your reasoning.

 

We all know OTT builds outstanding travel trailers and they use top-of-line components.  They also employ very knowledgeable and helpful staff.

 

From my experience, the OTT staff may not have detailed knowledge on how to program the Blue Sky controller and that is OK.

 

Last summer, I arrived for my delivery day with a knowledge of both the controller and the monitor.  My goal was to examine and potentially change both the “Battery Amp Hours” and the “Self-Discharge Rate” to match my AGM batteries.  At the time, Tommy acknowledged how no one at OTT knew how to decrease a parameter value within the monitor.  That knowledge was necessary to alter the “Self-Discharge Rate”.  The directions on page 3 of the manual describe the process, yet it is not intuitive.  I shared my knowledge with Tommy at the time.

 

By the way, when I looked at the black case AGMs, I was startled since that was not what I expected as pictured on the OTT website of optional equipment.  Although my work at the time was unfinished, I decided to wait until I returned home to contact the Trojan engineer.

 

Buzzy

[GrayGhost]

My charge controller is, and always has, had the equalization function disabled, or "OFF".  So equalization is not occurring. The IPN ProRemote however, is still set at the factory settings.  I don't see in the manual anywhere what it should be set at to prevent equalization, just a note indicating that AGMs should never be equalized.  Without knowing precisely  how to disable equalization in the IPN ProRemote, I was hesitant to cycle through the settings. Does anyone know if I should look for ? .... "OFF", or do you set the the parameters to zero, or answer "NO"?... just trying to verify what "no equalization"  looks like on that unit.

 

Thanks.

[DavidS]

Grey Ghost,

 

Blue Sky Technical support said in an email:

Equalization is factory default to "OFF", you would need to enable equalization by turning on a DIP switch on the controller, DIP # vary on which controller you are utilizing.

When I mentioned that the IPN Pro Remote still shows the parameters dealing with equalization, they replied.

Yes, the IPNPRO will still show the setting, but it will not allow equalization. Even if you press "Equalize now", nothing will happen without the DIP ON. Factory default is for it to be OFF.

The instruction manual for the Blue Sky Energy Solar Boost 2512i(X)-HV (you may have a different model)  says:

If DIP switch #4 is turned OFF equalization is completely disabled regardless of other equalization settings. If DIP switch #4 is turned ON prior to the application of battery power, automatic equalization is enabled and the SB2512iX will perform automatic equalization after the set number of Auto Equalize Days has elapsed. If DIP switch #4 is turned ON, after battery power is applied an equalization cycle will begin immediately. Equalization start/stop may also be remotely controlled from the IPN-ProRemote or UCM.

I doubt Oliver turned on this DIP switch, and if you have not, then your equalization is off.