Oliver Lithium Pro Package

[LiFeBlueBattery]

16 hours ago, Fritz said:

It is clear that some of you have a very strong electrical background, but I needed some refresher to better understand these lithium battery discussions.  So I’m going to try and re-phrase what I’ve learned from this discussion and Oliver.  And, cutting to the chase, I’m rethinking the value of the lithium pro package.

Perhaps this summary will help others.  Warning: long post.

Electrical current can be described with this formula: 

        Current = “I” (amps) = Power (watts) / Voltage (V)  

By example, the current 11,000-btu A/C draws about 1,100 watts.  If plugged in to 120V shore power, the current to run the A/C is 1100W/120V, or about 9.17 amps.  If, however, the A/C is run on inverted 12V power, the draw is 1100W/12V, or about 91.7 amps.  Thus, an hour’s worth of battery-powered A/C would discharge the batteries by about 92 amp-hours.  Actually, the discharge would be a bit greater (about 2 amp-hours), because the inverter uses about 2 amps to do its inversion. 

After this hour of cool air, the batteries could be recharged with shore power at 120V, solar gain at 12V, or (at least theoretically) the tow vehicle (at 12V).  

Several people have commented that tow vehicle provides very little charge through the standard 7-pin connector, because the wiring is too small.  LifeBlue described a TV wiring modification to provide a greater charging current, but others (e.g., Overland) have questioned the ability of newer alternators to supply this current without damage.  Absent TV modification, this option is out.

With shore power, the controller is set by Oliver accept a charge current of 100 amps.  At this rate, it would take a little less than an hour to replace the 92 amp-hour charge after using the A/C with battery power for an hour. 

The battery could be recharged with solar gain, but this would take substantially longer.  With an average gain of about 120 amp hours (see Overland’s solar availability chart posted 6/15/20, using May Wyoming/Montana values), it would take almost a full day of charging (~120 amp-hours) to make up for an hour of battery-powered A/C use.

The battery also could be charged with a generator to replace the draw of an hour’s worth of battery-powered cool air, but this, for some, might defeat the purpose.  Nontheless, a 1000W generator might replace the 92 amp hours in about an hour (at 100 amps/hr), and a 2,000W generator would do this same job in about 30 minutes.  (as an aside, I just checked the Honda 1000W and 2000W generators on Amazon: the 2000W unit is 10 lbs heavier than the 1000W version, slightly quieter than the 1000W unit, and only slightly more expensive.   

Other electrical uses are also drawing from the battery.  This includes lighting (about 7 amps with everything on), electronics (camera, wifi, cell booster, tank monitor) takes about 5 amps, water heater uses about 5 amps, and both vent fans might pull up to 9.5 amps.  The inverter takes about 2 amps when in “invert” mode and about 0.4 amps on standby.  A composting toilet fan draws perhaps another 1-2 amps.  The furnace draws electricity to run.  My point is this: an average solar gain of about 10-15 amps on a moderately sunny day, with the trailer in the sun for perhaps 8 hours, will be just enough (or maybe not quite enough) to make up for regular daily uses.  There’s not much solar gain left over to recharge from battery-powered A/C use.  Similarly, on a series of cloudy days in (as is common in the Pacific Northwest), or when parked in shade, the solar alone could be insufficient for even basic uses over a period of time.  Question: does this reflect your experience?

So now I get it: this is the reason that folks carry generators (which I’ve always avoided).  My hope for the lithium pro solar package was that it would reduce the need for a generator, and perhaps provide the occasional 30-60 minutes of A/C during a hot rest area break.  But without generator or shore power (or modified TV power), it’s hard to see how the solar system will keep up with even occasional A/C use.  It seems that after spending a premium for lithium pro system, the weakest link could be the solar charging capacity (i.e., need more panels).  And if a person is going to carry a generator anyway, might not the 2000W inverter and AGMs be sufficient?

Thoughts, anyone?

  

Excellent Fritz. You make my point well for why I highly recommend installing the TV auxilliary charge circuit. It eliminates the need for a generator.  

[Overland]

29 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

My tax advisor has found language that suggests, in order to take the full credit for the battery cost, 100% of the battery charging has to come from the solar panels.  If not, the credit (for the cost of the batteries) must be prorated based on the percentage of charging that is solar vs alternative sources (120v, generator, or TV alternator).  Like most tax laws, the language is vague, at best, and can be interpreted in many ways. 

I'm not certain you could definitively determine this ratio. 

Interesting.  As for how you could determine it, I doubt you could without installing something like a Victron system. 

[Overland]

15 minutes ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

Statement 1 above is incorrect. With our latest BMS, if the cell temperature drops below about 26°F, the heater circuit will activate whenever you apply charge current. If the current is below 0.05C , charge current will be delivered to the cells. If above 0.05C but less than the minimum required for the heater, the battery will not charge and a 10 minute delay timer will start. When sufficient current is available, the heater will activate. When the release temperature threshold is met, current will be directed to the cells.

The charge source can be anything that make 12 Volts, shore power, alternator, generator or PV solar. You can combine charge sources if needed.

Thanks - that makes much more sense.  Can you tell us how many amps the heater pulls when engaged?

Also, since you mentioned the latest BMS, is that something that's upgradable via your iPhone app?

Edited September 8, 2020 by Overland

[Ray and Susan Huff]

5 minutes ago, Overland said:

Interesting.  As for how you could determine it, I doubt you could without installing something like a Victron system. 

And that would cancel out any tax credit gained.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Susan Huff

[LiFeBlueBattery]

16 hours ago, Overland said:

It does seem that the LifeBlue batteries have a narrower operating range than my Battleborns.  Their recommended operating range is 24° to 135°.  Actually, 24° is the temperature at which their BMS will cut off charging, as measured within the battery.  So conceivably, the outside temperature could dip below that, since it would take a while for the batteries themselves to reach that temperature.  To my knowledge, Battleborn doesn't have a recommended storage range, but I do know that Victron recommends -49° to 158° for their batteries, and they are generally pretty conservative with their numbers.  

Battleborn doesn't require you to discharge their batteries before storage.  They do recommend disconnecting any trickle charge (solar).  

Hello Overland,

Your statement is incorrect. LiFeBlue Battery has a very broad operating temperature range of -4°F to 140°F. Cell over temperature protection turns on at 149°F. With the LB12200D-LT (sold by OTT) you can charge and discharge within this range. The batteries can withstand -40°F but should not be stored below -4°F.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

12 hours ago, Susan Huff said:

I say: There are more advantages to lithium batteries, than the elimination of the need for a portable generator. 

1. Easier maintenance; blue tooth battery monitoring

2. Faster charging

3. 80% of battery usable in Lithium vs 50% in AGM/flooded; less worry of dangerous level of discharge

4. Longer battery life

5. Increased resale value (only an advantage if you sell)

6. Solar Tax credit - jury is still out on how much of the cost can be claimed as a credit against tax liability

7. Less weight to carry

Running the AC off the batteries is near the bottom of our list of perceived benefits of the Lithium Pro Pkg.  1. We have seldom used our AC in the past 10 years of RVing. 2. We tend to tolerate heat better when we are enjoying the outdoors.  3. I anticipate it will be easier to maintain a comfortable temperature inside the well insulated Oliver.

Hi Susan,

Just FYI, we (Starlight Solar Power Systems) have designed and installed over 3000 RV solar power systems since 2001. Customer always claim the entire amount of parts and labor using the ITC. This includes batteries because a battery is a necessary part of the system.

 

[LiFeBlueBattery]

1 hour ago, AndrewK said:

There seems to be concern for the need to have heated LiFePO4 batteries.

I too was concerned before I installed our Battle Born batteries.  I thought about drilling holes in the compartment, to allow air to flow from the basement into the compartment and installing a heating pads.  From our experience, neither have been necessary.

I did seal the four holes on the battery compartment door and installed a single layer of the same insulation Oliver uses on the basement compartment door.  

We have camped in temperatures down to 16 degrees and exterior of the batteries have never gone below 49 degrees.

Andrew

 

Hello AndrewK,

This is true. It is the internal temperature that matters. Just using the battery provides some internal heating that helps replace heat loss with cold ambient temperatures.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

... But it looks to me like the LifeBlues may even be a bit more difficult to maintain.  You'll have to disconnect and check them like I do, but you also have to discharge them to 50% after each trip.  But worse, if you think it's going to get over 100° in the battery box, which is definitely a possibility anywhere in the south if you leave your trailer in the sun, you have to remove them and store them inside?  That's not easier, and I wonder what effect that has on your warranty.  I mean, it's easily possible that they could get over 100° without you even knowing it, and if the BMS keeps track of that, do you lose your warranty?

As far as bluetooth battery monitoring goes, you can add that to any battery bank for $150, so that's nice to have but easily gotten otherwise.  And arguably there's an advantage to having a separate monitor....

Hi Overland,

A few corrections are needed.

1) There are many studies that have been done establishing the fact that storing any Li-ion battery at 100% SoC will cause faster degradation by corroding the positive plate. This will shorten cycle life. One study has shown that storing at 100% SoC AND keeping in high temperature will rapidly decrease capacity. Therefore we recommend keeping the battery as cool as posible and long term storage at 40%-50% SoC.

2) LiFeBlue Battery does not need to be removed to be stored if temperatures are above100°F. However, as stated above, cycle life will suffer.

3) LiFeBlue Battery 10 Year Limited Warranty has taken these factors into account. Simply keep the battery within the specified parameters on the data sheet.

4) A separate battery monitor will not show you many thing happening internally. If your battery has turned off at 2AM, you cant tell why. With LiFeBlue, just open the App to see what happened. Here's a list of what our internal monitor will display:

App display for Event Protection:
High Cell Voltage
Low Cell Voltage
Over Current Charge
Over Current Discharge
Low Temperature Charge
Low Temperature Discharge
High Temperature Charge
High Temperature Discharge
Short Circuit Protection

Battery Warming (low temp models)

Hope this helps.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

I don't get that.  You can stick a 12 volt heat pad to the side of the battery box for $40 if needed.  And with Battelborns, you'd only need it if it gets into the mid-20s. The 120v requirement for charging the LifeBlues in even moderately cold temps would be a deal killer for me - it makes your solar worthless in the cold.

Hi Overland, As mentioned in another response, our battery does not need 120Vac to operate the heater. Any sufficient current 12 volts source will work. 

[NCeagle]

46 minutes ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

Hello Fritz,

Statement 1 above is incorrect. With our latest BMS, if the cell temperature drops below about 26°F, the heater circuit will activate whenever you apply charge current. If the current is below 0.05C , charge current will be delivered to the cells. If above 0.05C but less than the minimum required for the heater, the battery will not charge and a 10 minute delay timer will start. When sufficient current is available, the heater will activate. When the release temperature threshold is met, current will be directed to the cells.

The charge source can be anything that make 12 Volts, shore power, alternator, generator or PV solar. You can combine charge sources if needed.

Hi Larry, for a pair of 200 Ah LifeBlue Batteries, does .05C equal 20 amps (.05 * 400)?  And... what current is required for the heater circuit to activate?  I guess it would be up to the owner to make sure the charge source wasn't trying to charge the batteries at a rate between .05C and whatever the heater circuit is?  That would be bad luck resulting in no charging.  😞

[LiFeBlueBattery]

1 hour ago, Susan Huff said:

My tax advisor has found language that suggests, in order to take the full credit for the battery cost, 100% of the battery charging has to come from the solar panels.  If not, the credit (for the cost of the batteries) must be prorated based on the percentage of charging that is solar vs alternative sources (120v, generator, or TV alternator).  Like most tax laws, the language is vague, at best, and can be interpreted in many ways. 

I'm not certain you could definitively determine this ratio.  I suspect the tax laws are written for permanent structures; since it has been ruled that RV's are considered a second home for tax purposes, perhaps the laws will be rewritten to account for multiple sources of charging power.  It will probably end up like claiming a vehicle for business use: we'll be expected to keep a log of the source of all charging.  Sounds like a great way to enjoy "Oliver Time"!

The language in the ITC law is the credit may be taken for all the PV solar power system components installed in any "dwelling unit". There are no conditions on how long you live in the unit or whether all of your energy is made by the energy system for which the credit was granted. In other word, the entire system with labor cost receives the credit.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

51 minutes ago, Overland said:

Thanks - that makes much more sense.  Can you tell us how many amps the heater pulls when engaged?

Also, since you mentioned the latest BMS, is that something that's upgradable via your iPhone app?

Hi Overland,

The LB12200D-LT requires 12 Amps DC to turn on the heater circuit. If sufficient current is not available, a 10 minute delay timer will start. Note that low current from your PV solar system will charge the battery at any temperature down to -4°F.

The BMS firmware can be updated by us (in our service center) via the RS485 data port on the top of the battery.

Here's a teaser: We are currently developing a Comm box with WIFI to connect our battery to an internet connected router. You will be able to monitor your battery from anywhere using our new App. And, it will send important push notifications to your phone. This is just another step in our commitment to offer the most innovative battery.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

28 minutes ago, NCeagle said:

Hi Larry, for a pair of 200 Ah LifeBlue Batteries, does .05C equal 20 amps (.05 * 400)?  And... what current is required for the heater circuit to activate?  I guess it would be up to the owner to make sure the charge source wasn't trying to charge the batteries at a rate between .05C and whatever the heater circuit is?  That would be bad luck resulting in no charging.  😞

That is correct. Up to 10A per battery will bypass the heater circuit. That means with PV solar power, you can be charging in early morning, not wasting the power. If current rises above the threshold, the battery will stop charging and turn on the heater circuit.

Each battery requires 12 Amps to turn on the heater. If your PV solar can not produce enough current, the battery heater timer will start. You are also correct, there may be a period where the battery heater will not be on but the current is too high to charge the cells. This is another reason I recommend installing the auxiliary charge circuit from the alternator. Of course, a generator of shower power can also be used and the heaters will turn on.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by LiFeBlueBattery

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

I've gotta say, this entire thread has been very helpful -- I'm learning lots and feeling more comfortable with the lithium pro package.  Thank you all for the contributions.  

[LiFeBlueBattery]

 1. RE @NCeagle's concerns about prolonged charging at 100%,  I know that Battleborn batteries have a higher capacity than labeled and that their BMS is supposed to keep their batteries within a range that will prolong their life.  Do you use a similar tactic or should owners be cautious about charging your batteries to 100% or depleting them to 0?  
I did notice that you recommend that owners deplete their batteries to 50% if being stored for longer than 30 days, whereas Battleborn recommends charging them to 100% before disconnecting.
2. Is your BMS software upgradable via your app?  Are there any user controllable parameters for your BMS?  Does the software provide any insight into battery health, cell balance, etc., or does it just give info on state of charge?
3. For those of us with programmable chargers, what do you recommend for absorption and float voltages, charge current, absorption time, etc.?
4.  I've read that Battleborn says that the main difference between their batteries and yours is that they use a cylindrical cell vs a prismatic one.  I haven't a clue about the two, but Battleborn reportedly says that in their tests the cylindrical cells lasted longer and were easier to keep balanced.  What is your response to that?
5. The simplicity of these types of batteries with a built in BMS is a sword with two edges; i.e., there's more to go wrong and if it does, then you've lost the whole battery.  You guys have doubled down on that by including bluetooth and heating inside the box and I'm wondering are either of those, or your BMS repairable, or worth the trouble to get repaired even if it is? 
 

 

Hello Overland,
While I would enjoy having a discussion that compares LiFeBlue to other brands, I told Oliver TT that I would not do that on the forum. You’ve asked many questions that are answered on the website and in the data sheets. I’ll try to keep my answers brief. The data sheet is found here: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/ewExternalFiles/LB12200-HCLT Data Sheet.pdf

Charging, protection
The LiFeBlue BMS fully protects our battery cells. When the battery is full, It will will block all charge current coming in if any cell becomes saturated. This happens at 3.8 Volts. The charge inhibit function will latch until you begin to discharge the battery. The maximum rated voltage of our cells is 4.2V and our BMS keeps cells well under this limit. No harm happens to our battery by fully charging.

Charge Profile
LiFeBlue Battery BMS was designed with a broad input for voltage and current. They can be fully charged with any voltage from about 13.6V up to 16 Volts. We recommend about 14.4 Volts Absorb or CV for about 15 minutes, then reduce CV to float at 13.8 Volts. There are many other profiles that will work with out BMS.

Discharging

You can fully discharge (100% DoD) our battery without harming it also. Our low voltage cutoff happens when any cell group drops to 2.8V. The battery will enter sleep mode by disabling the MPU including Bluetooth. Current draw is reduced to 0.0005 Amps (5 micro-A).

 

Storage,

There are many aging studies indicating that storing an LFP battery at 100% will reduce cycle life much faster than storing at 50% or lower. Capacity retention is greater when storing at 50% SoC due primarily to increased positive electrode oxidization.

Capacity
We have noticed that our cell manufacturing process has increased energy density by about 5% to 10% in the last few container loads we have received. Our 300AH can have up to 330AH of stored energy.

BMS firmware
Our BMS can be updated only by us. The user can not access this feature with the user App. 

App
The app has many functions. Renaming the battery is the only change you can make with the App. 
See the App page here: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/smart-connect-details/index.html

 

Cells

It is cheaper and faster to make a cylindrical cell than a prismatic cell. We use 25AH prismatic cells which cost more to produce than cylindrical cells. Like cylindrical cells, we use series and parallel connections but we have far fewer parts in each battery. We believe this means fewer points of failure over the life of the battery.

 

For the last 2 decades I have done a lot of study on battery chemistries and have not seen any evidence that a LFP cylindrical cell will last longer than a prismatic cell. Let me know if you have found such a study. Our cells have actually been lab tested and with 1C discharge rate produced over 2800 cycles with 83% remaining capacity, the highest rating in the industry. Most Li batteries only claim 2000 cycles with 80% remaining.  

 

You said, “...a built in BMS is a sword with two edges; i.e., there's more to go wrong and if it does, then you've lost the whole battery.”  One of our many innovative designs is that our battery is fully repairable at any time in its life cycle. If the BMS or a cell fails, even if it's many years from now, we can still repair it so you can continue use until it is spent. 

 

Currently drop in RV type Li batteries are made in China, Korea and Japan. None are made in the USA. There are many companies importing very cheap Li batteries. We choose not to go the route of cheapest price. Our goal is to have the highest quality battery that is also feature rich and the longest lasting. We have made many innovations such as our Bluetooth communications, high output BMS, low temperature batteries and so on.

 

I hope this has addressed many of your questions.

 

[Ray and Susan Huff]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

The language in the ITC law is the credit may be taken for all the PV solar power system components installed in any "dwelling unit". There are no conditions on how long you live in the unit or whether all of your energy is made by the energy system for which the credit was granted. In other word, the entire system with labor cost receives the credit.

No restrictions on the amount of energy provided by other sources, but it is possible the cost of the batteries used to store solar energy might have to be prorated if they are charged from sources other than solar.  Makes sense, if you think about it.

I will research the details and report any findings.

[NCeagle]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

That is correct. Up to 10A per battery will bypass the heater circuit. That means with PV solar power, you can be charging in early morning, not wasting the power. If current rises above the threshold, the battery will stop charging and turn on the heater circuit.

Each battery requires 12 Amps to turn on the heater. If your PV solar can not produce enough current, the battery heater timer will start. You are also correct, there may be a period where the battery heater will not be on but the current is too high to charge the cells. This is another reason I recommend installing the auxiliary charge circuit from the alternator. Of course, a generator of shower power can also be used and the heaters will turn on.

 

Ok, thanks Larry.  So with the package that Oliver is providing (2 x 200 Ah LT LifeBlue's), when the battery is cold enough (which should be very rare), we need to be sure we are charging the LifeBlues with something under 20 amps or over 24 amps - but not in between.  My 180 watt solar suitcase produces 10 amps in maximum sun.  My generator can push 15 amps sustained.  Looks like it would be wise to know the amps on the various charge sources in case I have to mix and match to avoid that "gap".  Anyone happen to know how many amps the 340 Watt solar panels on the roof of the Ollie can produce in full sunlight?  I'd guess it's around 19 max.

[Jairon]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

You can fully discharge (100% DoD) our battery without harming it also. Our low voltage cutoff happens when any cell group drops to 2.8V. The battery will enter sleep mode by disabling the MPU including Bluetooth. Current draw is reduced to 0.0005 Amps (5 micro-A).

That is great information. Stuff like that should be on your website! Seriously consider hiring a web developer and adding more technical information. The current site made me seriously consider how I might spend $4,000 elsewhere. 🤪

A lot of the early battery management systems would actually kill lifepo4; parasitic drain from WiFi, Bluetooth, LEDs, etc.

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer most of these questions.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jairon

[NCeagle]

28 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

No restrictions on the amount of energy provided by other sources, but it is possible the cost of the batteries used to store solar energy might have to be prorated if they are charged from sources other than solar.  Makes sense, if you think about it.

I will research the details and report any findings.

Actually, it makes no sense to me whatsoever to try and prorate something that you haven't even used yet!! 😏  But we are talking about the federal government!  Trust your tax advisor of course.  Based on what I know from research and what Larry said about what other customers do, I will be taking the credit for the entire package.  Here's a good summary that is in line with other things I've read...   

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/federal-tax-credit#:~:text=Solar Tax Credit History&text=As of January 1%2C 2020,your solar system%2C including installation.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

1 minute ago, NCeagle said:

Actually, it makes no sense to me whatsoever to try and prorate something that you haven't even used yet!! 😏  But we are talking about the federal government!  Trust your tax advisor of course.  Based on what I know from research and what Larry said about what other customers do, I will be taking the credit for the entire package.  Here's a good summary that is in line with other things I've read...   

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/federal-tax-credit#:~:text=Solar Tax Credit History&text=As of January 1%2C 2020,your solar system%2C including installation.

Good points!  Thanks . . . . . I'll quit losing sleep over it.

Are you going to discount the price of the Easy Start module that comes with the Lithium pkg?  Yes, it's been said I can be a bit anal 😇 

[LiFeBlueBattery]

39 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

No restrictions on the amount of energy provided by other sources, but it is possible the cost of the batteries used to store solar energy might have to be prorated if they are charged from sources other than solar.  Makes sense, if you think about it.

I will research the details and report any findings.

OK. Here's a fact from our business over many years: No customers has ever told us that they could not use the credit because the alternator or generator or shore power also charge the batteries. Customers wrote to thank us for the ITC info. They had never heard of it. They all used the full amount for the credit and were grateful for the $ thousands saved. I understand your wanting to research so I hope this is helpful.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

21 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Ok, thanks Larry.  So with the package that Oliver is providing (2 x 200 Ah LT LifeBlue's), when the battery is cold enough (which should be very rare), we need to be sure we are charging the LifeBlues with something under 20 amps or over 24 amps - but not in between.  My 180 watt solar suitcase produces 10 amps in maximum sun.  My generator can push 15 amps sustained.  Looks like it would be wise to know the amps on the various charge sources in case I have to mix and match to avoid that "gap".  Anyone happen to know how many amps the 340 Watt solar panels on the roof of the Ollie can produce in full sunlight?  I'd guess it's around 19 max.

Hi NCeagle,

If your generator can produce 15 Amps AC (assuming you meant this), then you can easily power the Xantrex charger for the needed amperage. I think the gap is insignificant unless you are only relying on PV solar power.

340 Watts of PV solar power in ideal conditions (high irradiance, low angle of incidence, cool cell temp) can make over 20 Amps.

Edited September 9, 2020 by LiFeBlueBattery

[NCeagle]

8 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

Good points!  Thanks . . . . . I'll quit losing sleep over it.

Are you going to discount the price of the Easy Start module that comes with the Lithium pkg?  Yes, it's been said I can be a bit anal 😇 

I'm planning on just using the package price to keep it simple.  I don't know any better and Oliver has been nice enough to call it a "Solar Package".  🙂

[NCeagle]

1 minute ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

Hi NCeagle,

If your generator can produce 15 Amps AC (assuming you meant this), then you can easily power the Xantrex charger for the needed amperage. I think he gap is insignificant unless you are only relying on PV solar power.

340 Watts of PV solar power in ideal conditions (high irradiance, low angle of incidence, cool cell temp) can make over 20 Amps.

Ah - yes - good catch...  15 amps AC with the generator.  For all solar charging, it looks like I'll be able to use the BMS app to monitor the charging amps and either plug in my solar suitcase or not... that's sweet!   

[Ray and Susan Huff]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

OK. Here's a fact from our business over many years: No customers has ever told us that they could not use the credit because the alternator or generator or shore power also charge the batteries. Customers wrote to thank us for the ITC info. They had never heard of it. They all used the full amount for the credit and were grateful for the $ thousands saved. I understand your wanting to research so I hope this is helpful.

Thanks, that's encouraging . . . . . If IRS asks questions . . . . . who's to prove how the batteries are being charged and what percentage is from solar?  Worse case scenario, they don't accept my answer and take back some of the credit.  Not likely, though.