Victron MP2 with (2) Epoch 460ah batteries. DAY #1 Removal, rewiring, mounts, routing wires

[rideadeuce]

5 hours ago, katanapilot said:

Appreciate the schematic.  Installing the Victron actually simplifies the AC wiring compared to the OEM wiring with the 2000va Xantrex.

Still unanswered is how you provide GFCI protection.  Your upper (OEM) schematic shows a GFCI outlet being fed from a switch.  Unless yours is different from mine, all GFCI protection came from the GFCI outlet on the Xantrex receptacle.  I can only assume you have now swapped out the first receptacle being fed from the plug (now directly connected to the upper C/B on the panel) with a GFCI and are now feeding all downstream receptacles from the load side of the GFCI.  Correct?

My first OEM plug under dinette is a GFCI. 

[katanapilot]

15 minutes ago, rideadeuce said:

My first OEM plug under dinette is a GFCI. 

Understood, thanks.  I have no GFCI receptacles except for the one on the Xantrex. Obviously a lot of differences between hulls.  
 

As has been discussed in other threads, the lack of a hull-specific wiring diagram is a definite negative. 

[jd1923]

11 hours ago, katanapilot said:

I have no GFCI receptacles except for the one on the Xantrex. Obviously a lot of differences between hulls.  

Same here and that means there is no GFCI unless running the inverter. It's also odd that Mike with hull 308 has a GFCI outlet and your hull 628 does not, like my old hull 113 does not. Why?

I believe we have two generations of OTT hulls and Xantrex products, mine being a 2016 and yours a 2020. My 2KW Xantrex only has 6 possible connections. On the backside with the fans, there are 3 DC connections, B+ an and B- connected by 4/1 AWG cable directly to the batteries and a 6AWG(?) ground that connects to the yellow ground bus under the rear dinette seat. The front side does have a dual GFCI outlet, rated 120 VAC 16.6A, the monitor cable and LCD screen

The older Xantrex in our hull does not have what you wrote "20 amp feed to the AC input of the Xantrex." Do you have the more modern look Xantrex, fully rectangular, squared edges painted gray? Or does yours look like mine, rounded edges metal looking black vinyl coated? I believe you have the newer generation Xantrex.

BTW, who cares! I'm ripping mine out end of July, the Xantrex, the Xantrex ATS, the funky little electrical box stuck in the corner that connects inverter supply to most 120V circuits, all the but the A/C. I will show my work here and looking forward to seeing yours.

All that matters, is... After all the old is removed, you connect the Victron MP to the batteries in the same way and to the ground bus. You connect shore power from the PD5100 ATS to the AC input and connect the 50A L1 output circuit to the entire Oliver 30A AC panel. This time including the 20A breaker for the air conditioner that was previously bypassed. Can't wait!

Pictures to follow:
1) GFCI close-up on inverter
2) PROwatt SW, with junction box above and inverter below
3) Rear Dinette seat with PD5100, self-installed EMS, Xantrex 2KW inverter and self-installed KISAE TS20 switch for running A/C on inverter.

Edited July 15, 2024 by jd1923
Added pics

[MAX Burner]

On 7/11/2024 at 4:19 PM, rideadeuce said:

I still have not worked out the kinks on my DC/DC charger setup, averaging 11-15 amps on the road. So nowhere near the potential of the 50amp charger.

Just curious, what's your SOC when you're reading 11-15amps?   Your 50amp Victron charger may only allow lower charging amp at higher SOCs.

FYI, we're getting 25-28amps with SOCs below 70% on the road.  As the SOC increases we're seeing 10-15amps (our's is a 30amp charger unit).

[jd1923]

9 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I believe we have two generations of OTT hulls and Xantrex products, mine being a 2016 and yours a 2020.

Mine is an inverter and it appears @katanapilot has a Xantrex 2KW inverter/charger. 

[katanapilot]

13 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Same here and that means there is no GFCI unless running the inverter. It's also odd that Mike with hull 308 has a GFCI outlet and your hull 628 does not, like my old hull 113 does not. Why?

I believe we have two generations of OTT hulls and Xantrex products, mine being a 2016 and yours a 2020. My 2KW Xantrex only has 6 possible connections. On the backside with the fans, there are 3 DC connections, B+ an and B- connected by 4/1 AWG cable directly to the batteries and a 6AWG(?) ground that connects to the yellow ground bus under the rear dinette seat. The front side does have a dual GFCI outlet, rated 120 VAC 16.6A, the monitor cable and LCD screen

The older Xantrex in our hull does not have what you wrote "20 amp feed to the AC input of the Xantrex." Do you have the more modern look Xantrex, fully rectangular, squared edges painted gray? Or does yours look like mine, rounded edges metal looking black vinyl coated? I believe you have the newer generation Xantrex.

BTW, who cares! I'm ripping mine out end of July, the Xantrex, the Xantrex ATS, the funky little electrical box stuck in the corner that connects inverter supply to most 120V circuits, all the but the A/C. I will show my work here and looking forward to seeing yours.

All that matters, is... After all the old is removed, you connect the Victron MP to the batteries in the same way and to the ground bus. You connect shore power from the PD5100 ATS to the AC input and connect the 50A L1 output circuit to the entire Oliver 30A AC panel. This time including the 20A breaker for the air conditioner that was previously bypassed. Can't wait!

Pictures to follow:
1) GFCI close-up on inverter
2) PROwatt SW, with junction box above and inverter below
3) Rear Dinette seat with PD5100, self-installed EMS, Xantrex 2KW inverter and self-installed KISAE TS20 switch for running A/C on inverter.

Don’t believe that’s the case in my trailer.  My Xantrex inverter/charger acts as a pass through when on shore or generator power and the GFCI outlet is powered - which then powers (and ground fault protects) everything plugged into it.  In my case, that’s the microwave and all the 120 volt receptacles.  

[rideadeuce]

9 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

Just curious, what's your SOC when you're reading 11-15amps?   Your 50amp Victron charger may only allow lower charging amp at higher SOCs.

FYI, we're getting 25-28amps with SOCs below 70% on the road.  As the SOC increases we're seeing 10-15amps (our's is a 30amp charger unit).

SOC hasn’t affected the amps output. I believe the issue has more to do with the fact that it is non-isolated version and the grounding wires need to be re-arranged. I was given this diagram to try

He said the tow vehicle battery and TT batteries must have a common ground. So I am going to try this setup after I install new high output alternator. 

@MAX Burner it’s why I was excited to see you had installed a non-isolated 30 amp version because of my questions about negative/ground wiring. 
Originally had everything going to the TT negative bus bar then on suggestion I moved the TV starter battery negative 4 awg straight to the Orion with only slight improvement. Have not seen anything above 16amp even when below 25% battery. 
How did you wire your negative/ground wires for the Orion?
 

 

[MAX Burner]

13 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

How did you wire your negative/ground wires for the Orion?

Mine's wired exactly as the illustration you've posted...  My negative bus bar is within 6 - 8" from the Orion and with a common ground between TV and TT, FYI.

[jd1923]

On 7/14/2024 at 10:39 AM, jd1923 said:

It's crazy that OTT strings all the 110 outlets including one for the microwave. There is an independent breaker for the fridge. All they needed is an extra breaker for the microwave and a parallel cable run to the fridge run. Not sure if a 15A GFCI breaker can handle the microwave and still be responsive to a fault at another outlet. When the microwave is running, there is only about 5A available.

There I go again, quoting myself! 🤣

By chance I found the individual electrical runs for the 110v outlets and microwave. This may not be true in newer hulls, but on ours there is one breaker for both. Good news is the run to the microwave is separate and can be wired to a separate breaker, given one available in the panel. Since I will soon eliminate the PD converter/charger I could use its breaker or install a thin double in its place. I already wired the panel in this way but need the PD converter while I have no batteries in ours, working on the new inverter/charger installation.

I removed the Xantrex 2KW inverter yesterday. Ours is inverter only, no charger and it also has the Xantrex PROwatt SW external ATS. The freed-up space is perfect to add a DC-to-DC charger or other needs. I also plan to move the solar ON/OFF switch from under the streetside bed to rear dinette. I already upgraded to motorized ball valves so no pulling of the curbside bed, and I want absolutely no reason to move either bed when camping. OTT really needs this as a future design goal! I sure hope the MP2 does not have some kind of manual reset button!

What hokey wiring OTT did. Though I'm thinking back in 2016 the solar inverter option was a rare add-on. When I built an inverter system in our past Class-C, I created a split bus in the panel, one side served by the inverter and the other side having A/C and converter/charger breakers only to be powered by shore power. PD actually makes panels with a split bus for this reason, but mine was hand-cut!

OTT wired the microwave and 110v outlets into a standard electrical junction box using only wire-nuts to connect these runs to both shore and inverter. These only went through the breaker on the panel when on shore power, otherwise are protected by the GFCI outlet on the inverter. I removed everything you see in this picture, and you can see the junction box at the top of the picture.

The second picture shows the two cables that were wired into the box. They are the two white cables you see lose above the panel which I wired into the panel afterwards. Also yesterday, I purchased my Victron MP2 and VE.bus for programming and Bluetooth connection from Inverter Supply, at a good OTD price, no additional costs: Victron Energy PMP122305120 - Inverter Supply 

The second picture also shows the main shore power cable (heavy black 600V 10-3 cable on LHS). This will be removed. A new 10-3 cable will be wired from the EMS as input to the MP2 and another from MP2 output to the panel so that the inverter handles all loads including air conditioning. When on shore power from either input (grid or generator) it will allow pass-through 120VAC and/or Power Assist when needed. No generator on our rig, just 600AH Epoch and 3KVA MP2. If this doesn't do it, though it should, I can always add more batteries in the basement!

[Ronbrink]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:53 AM, Ronbrink said:

It is recommended to use 1/0 pure copper cables when installing a high output alternator, in addition to keeping all stock ground wires. Most manufacturers offer a ‘Big 3 Wiring Kit’, but I made one up with an Amazon order from the WindyNation store. This also includes upgrading the stock grounding cable from the battery to engine block (in my application) to 1/0, as well.

On 7/12/2024 at 6:31 AM, Ronbrink said:

I recently purchased a 320A alternator (at high rpm) to replace the stock 165A, which produces 200 amps at idle.

UPDATE1:
The installation of the Mechman high output alternator went well, now waiting to field test to confirm any improvement in the DC-DC charger output at idle and general TV battery performance. Perhaps @rideadeuce got his installed and can provide a report on his (hopefully favorable) results.

Wire loom to protect the new 1/0 cables remains to be done.

 

Battery chaos!

UPDATE2:
Wire loom and engine cover installed to complete this alternator upgrade project. As a side note: since my TV has a lower drive belt for the a/c compressor, a new one was first installed before the new shorter one specified for use with the smaller alternator pulley per the manufacturer’s recommendation.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Ronbrink
Update

[rideadeuce]

I have mine sitting in the garage. It hopefully will be my next project. Please post your post install numbers. 

[Ronbrink]

2 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

I have mine sitting in the garage. It hopefully will be my next project. Please post your post install numbers. 

Will do.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Ronbrink

[Ronbrink]

On 8/21/2024 at 8:25 AM, rideadeuce said:

Please post your post install numbers.

I did a brief preliminary test while at the Cow Barn yesterday, a 15 minute run at TV idle. No drop in TV battery voltage while running its’ a/c full blast, and the 40A DC-DC charger and DPll (High setting) simultaneously. The run duration was limited due to the fact that the OTT was inside rather than outside the storage shed, whereby exhaust fumes would not have been an issue. The TV’s alternator gauge indicated a steady +14V output throughout the test, a vast improvement over the aging stock alternator. Looking forward to a planned trip next month to see how it performs, but very encouraged by the results of this test. 

TV at idle

DPll current draw offset by DC-DC 

DPll turned off, DC-DC output (minus misc. OTT draw)

DC-DC off, OTT misc. draw

[MAX Burner]

Excellent report, @Ronbrink!  Very similar to our experience with the 30A Victron 12/12v charger.  

Nice work on the install!  Makes boondocking from place to place a lot more fun knowing that your Ai-Hr storage will be topped off before arriving at the next location....

Cheers!

[rideadeuce]

@Ronbrink You are motivating me. I want to see those kind of numbers. Great job!

[johnwen]

On 4/13/2024 at 7:37 AM, rideadeuce said:

Removed: Old Xantrex inverter

Mike

Did you notice a difference in the fan noise of the Xantrex vs the Victron?  My 2000w Xantrex fan puts out a noticeable noise when charging and when cycling through its odd systems check...24 minutes off and 8 minutes on when on shore power.

[rideadeuce]

10 hours ago, johnwen said:

Mike

Did you notice a difference in the fan noise of the Xantrex vs the Victron?  My 2000w Xantrex fan puts out a noticeable noise when charging and when cycling through its odd systems check...24 minutes off and 8 minutes on when on shore power.

Never noticed that with my old Xantrex or I can’t remember. Sometimes I notice the low hum of the MP2 when bulk charging and/or fan noise but it doesn’t bother me. Still, so happy with MP2 and that I can run AC/camper without ever needing the generator, maybe I just ignore the noise. ;).  The new Atmos AC and microwave is much quieter too, so my cabin overall is much easier on the ears. 

[jd1923]

16 hours ago, johnwen said:

Did you notice a difference in the fan noise of the Xantrex vs the Victron?

5 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

Sometimes I notice the low hum of the MP2 when bulk charging and/or fan noise but it doesn’t bother me.

I am very sensitive to sound, good ears, can hear a toilet leak, every little sound in the house and odd sounds an automobile or RV. Don't like to sleep with a fan running or A/C on, any motor noise.

In the Oliver, I can hear the fridge cycle and the HWH turn on even in electric mode, etc. The Victron Multiplus II is a heavy-duty inverter charger. You can certainly hear it when the inverter is ON pushing enough amps to run the A/C or our Air Fryer. The thing is these appliances are so much noisier, so it doesn't really matter at the time. I have heard a couple Xantrex and several PD chargers and they make more noise when charging. I have our MP2 set at 50A charging and that may keep the sound down some (you can set it up to 120A charging which may get louder). For our LiFePO4 batteries, 50A is an easy charge so I keep it there. Usually when we connect to shore power, +50AH is enough to get the batteries back to 100% soon enough.

I sleep directly over our MP2 and I do not hear it at night. Never hear it while watching TV on inverter. We do have 10" 3-layer foam mattresses which helps to insulate. If it was still at a high charge rate by the time I go to bed, I would hear it a little. If that was ever the case, I could open up the VictronConnect app on my phone and switch the MP2 to OFF or inverter only modes. I have not ever had to do this, but it is an option. This beast is quiet! We run our MP2 24x7x365 days a year. IT is ALWAYS in on position unless wanting to be in charger only or inverter only modes.

[johnwen]

6 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I am very sensitive to sound, good ears, can hear a toilet leak, every little sound in the house and odd sounds an automobile or RV. Don't like to sleep with a fan running or A/C on, any motor noise.

In the Oliver, I can hear the fridge cycle and the HWH turn on even in electric mode, etc. The Victron Multiplus II is a heavy-duty inverter charger. You can certainly hear it when the inverter is ON pushing enough amps to run the A/C or our Air Fryer. The thing is these appliances are so much noisier, so it doesn't really matter at the time. I have heard a couple Xantrex and several PD chargers and they make more noise when charging. I have our MP2 set at 50A charging and that may keep the sound down some (you can set it up to 120A charging which may get louder). For our LiFePO4 batteries, 50A is an easy charge so I keep it there. Usually when we connect to shore power, +50AH is enough to get the batteries back to 100% soon enough.

I sleep directly over our MP2 and I do not hear it at night. Never hear it while watching TV on inverter. We do have 10" 3-layer foam mattresses which helps to insulate. If it was still at a high charge rate by the time I go to bed, I would hear it a little. If that was ever the case, I could open up the VictronConnect app on my phone and switch the MP2 to OFF or inverter only modes. I have not ever had to do this, but it is an option. This beast is quiet! We run our MP2 24x7x365 days a year. IT is ALWAYS in on position unless wanting to be in charger only or inverter only modes.

Thanks, JD...all makes sense.  I think I may stay with my Xanrex 2000w unit for the time being.  I'm planning to get 2x300 ah Epoch essentials and install at Quartzsite. I want to also remove my battery tray (it is shot) and clean up the wiring. And also explore dc to dc from my alternator.  I am hoping for much input from fellow campers at the "Q".  It is great to know I can switch charging off at night on the Victron...can't do that with my Xantrex.

John

[rich.dev]

4 minutes ago, johnwen said:

It is great to know I can switch charging off at night on the Victron...can't do that with my Xantrex.

John

I can do that with my Xantrex 3000. Go into the Xantrex app, scroll down to Charger, click on "Charger Ignition Control", swipe up to change "off" to "Auto-on" then click "apply". 

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, johnwen said:

Thanks, JD...all makes sense.  I think I may stay with my Xanrex 2000w unit for the time being.  I'm planning to get 2x300 ah Epoch essentials and install at Quartzsite. I want to also remove my battery tray (it is shot) and clean up the wiring. And also explore dc to dc from my alternator.  I am hoping for much input from fellow campers at the "Q".  It is great to know I can switch charging off at night on the Victron...can't do that with my Xantrex. John

I had the older 2KW Xantrex, inverter only/no charger. It worked fine and was quiet with a simple on/off switch under the pantry shelf. Nothing wrong with it. It worked great and it's now installed in another Oliver. The new owner only wanted to run a coffee pot, occasional microwave use, etc. LiFePO4 batteries first is a fine idea.

I wanted an inverter to run air conditioning (A/C) a few hours a day, often needed afternoons in the desert sun. In the next 3-4 months, I will install the new Atmos A/C which runs under 10A (the 13.5K Btu Dometic P2 draws 15A at 120VAC, more in extreme conditions). The MP2 running the Atmos with 600AH Epoch should be an awesome combination! At a future date, during another Black-Friday sale, see me install another 460AH of Epoch Essentials in the raceway under the pantry, for 1060AH total! 🤣 Then we can run A/C as needed.

Our MP2 is wired to the entire 120VAC power panel (2KW inverters are usually wired to microwave and 110V outlets only). All appliances in our hull can be run via the MP2 3KW inverter. See the pic, what a beast inverter!!!

We will only be at Quartzsite for 3-4 days, the first week of Feb. PM me if you will be there that week and want to meet up. I'd have the day, roll up my sleeves, and together we could get a lot done! You purchased my batteries of choice! Best wishes, JD

[johnwen]

2 hours ago, rich.dev said:

I can do that with my Xantrex 3000. Go into the Xantrex app, scroll down to Charger, click on "Charger Ignition Control", swipe up to change "off" to "Auto-on" then click "apply". 

After installing a bluetooth control panel I tried this procedure and found I could not start the inverter without shore power.  Once connected to shore power I regained control of the inverter after changing the setting back to "off".  Probably have another setting set wrong.

[johnwen]

5 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

We will only be at Quartzsite for 3-4 days, the first week of Feb. PM me if you will be there that week and want to meet up. I'd have the day, roll up my sleeves, and together we could get a lot done! You purchased my batteries of choice!

I'll look you up JD...thanks :)

[jd1923]

14 hours ago, johnwen said:

After installing a bluetooth control panel I tried this procedure and found I could not start the inverter without shore power.  Once connected to shore power I regained control of the inverter after changing the setting back to "off".  Probably have another setting set wrong.

This appears odd. Generally an inverter runs on battery power with full functionality. There are several Xantrex 3000 experts here, @rich.dev being one of them.

[johnwen]

5 hours ago, jd1923 said:

This appears odd. Generally an inverter runs on battery power with full functionality. There are several Xantrex 3000 experts here, @rich.dev being one of them.

JD, not that it matters much but my unit is a 2000w pro.  I will retest now.