Victron MP2 with (2) Epoch 460ah batteries. DAY #1 Removal, rewiring, mounts, routing wires

[James]

Currently Renewable Outdoors is having their 4th of July sale. Just picked up a 460 Victron for $1619 delivered. They also have the non comms version. 2 for $2300 delivered.

[jd1923]

6 hours ago, James said:

Currently Renewable Outdoors is having their 4th of July sale. Just picked up a 460 Victron for $1619 delivered…

Awesome!  BTW, the Epoch Essentials are all $100 less than recently and 10% off! This is closer to 20% off! OMG 🤣

Edited July 8 by jd1923

[jd1923]

Epoch updated their site too, $100 less than before plus a 10% OFF code. 460AH for $1,169 after discount or 300AH for $899 (Victron Comms more). All authorized dealers should be offering this. Hope it doesn't end soon. Their prices keep getting better.

[jd1923]

I had a chat with Renewable Outdoors today. They are responsive. Turns out the Epoch 460AH is approx. 9.5", Epoch website numbers are correct, their User Manual is wrong.

Two Epoch Essentials 460AH will NOT fit in the battery bay, but as Mike has shown here, two 460 with Victron Comms (more $$$) will fit.

I'm starting to think re two Epoch 300AH which will fit in the tray and likely 600AH is enough for our needs. Their sale is still on today, but not much longer.

[jd1923]

Bit the bullet today and I will soon be 600AH into LiFePO4! 🤣

These were $1,100 ea since I first heard of Epoch. They just dropped the price $100 and are running a 4th of July sale, 10% off another $100, and free shipping, NO sales tax, life is good!

[MAX Burner]

Our 3 x BB's are a perfect AH storage capacity for our style of camping/boondocking, FYI.  

But when it comes to AH's, "MO is BETTA", IMO.  Frankly, I don't know what I'd do with another 300AHs!  Keep the AC running for the Knuckleheads when we're away, I suppose!  HA!

[rideadeuce]

Sitting outside at Taughannock Falls, NY in a primitive campsite with 25% battery life left (920aH bank). I have been running the AC off and ON for 2 days. First time I have had to put to use all of my battery backups (GZ4K, etc). And yes most of the AC run time has been for the 2 knuckleheads we enjoy so much. Mimi is expecting again!

And, I agree, It just depends how much boon-docking you plan on doing. I wish I had 2000AH!

Best,

Mike

Side note: Starlink is working great!

 

Edited July 11 by rideadeuce

[jd1923]

Well @MAX Burner travels in and out of NM where it’s sunny 90% of the time and Art has a capable DC-to-DC charger. @rideadeuce Mike used his 920AH in a test running the A/C 8 hours on the highway. Beautiful pics btw, most showing dense clouds. Very soon you will have the Atmos A/C  installed and that should run 50% longer, all else being equal.

600AH should be good for us. I will mount the two front-to-back. They are just under 14” at the base and will fit nicely. There will be 6” extra width in the tray to fill. If I want a 3rd in the future, I can remove the tray to fit another.

We have Oliver owners where their style is not using an inverter. Personally, I don’t get that extreme. We just replaced our microwave with an air fryer and after this upgrade, Chris can run the oven anytime and anywhere. I’ll need an Inverter upgrade next and these batteries may sit on the shelf until I install both together, clean up the 4/0 cables.  I was ready to spend $500 more for 920AH, if they had fit, but not double for 920AH with Victron Comms, that I would hardly have a need for.

[MAX Burner]

@rideadeuce - Hey, Mike - are those a couple of airedales you have there?  I used to have a female that looked just like them!

You're right @jd1923, the DC/DC charger really makes the battery package work for us, BTW.  Gone are the days of having our AS with 4 heavy AGMs!

[rideadeuce]

3 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

 

@rideadeuce - Hey, Mike - are those a couple of airedales you have there?  I used to have a female that looked just like them!

 

No, they are their miniature twins… Welsh Terriers 20-22 lbs. 

I still have not worked out the kinks on my DC/DC charger setup, averaging 11-15 amps on the road. So nowhere near the potential of the 50amp charger. Going to try a couple of things when we get home from our trip and the Atmos is installed. 
 

Cheers,

Mike

Edited July 11 by rideadeuce

[SeaDawg]

8 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Well @MAX Burner travels in and out of NM where it’s sunny 90% of the time and Art has a capable DC-to-DC charger. @rideadeuce Mike used his 920AH in a test running the A/C 8 hours on the highway. Beautiful pics btw, most showing dense clouds. Very soon you will have the Atmos A/C  installed and that should run 50% longer, all else being equal.

600AH should be good for us. I will mount the two front-to-back. They are just under 14” at the base and will fit nicely. There will be 6” extra width in the tray to fill. If I want a 3rd in the future, I can remove the tray to fit another.

We have Oliver owners where their style is not using an inverter. Personally, I don’t get that extreme. We just replaced our microwave with an air fryer and after this upgrade, Chris can run the oven anytime and anywhere. I’ll need an Inverter upgrade next and these batteries may sit on the shelf until I install both together, clean up the 4/0 cables.  I was ready to spend $500 more for 920AH, if they had fit, but not double for 920AH with Victron Comms, that I would hardly have a need for.

Yes. I'm in that "no inverter " camp. I'm used to 12v life, for 40 + years.

We had one, for a few years, didn't use it much, so removed it. 

Everyone has a different camping style.

Pick your batteries and gear for what you need, and want.

It's all good.

[jd1923]

3 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Yes. I'm in that "no inverter " camp. I'm used to 12v life, for 40 + years.

I knew she was you Sherry, Jedi Master! You're the best and I am weak in my needs for my hi-rez TV monitor, with HD soundbar! 12V cannot compare for this and other needs. We must charge our laptops on the road, the Dewalt 20V charger for the many tools I use at home and some away (extra charger in the attic). Oh yeah, Chris uses a blow-dryer every few days when away and we will use our new oven likely every other day.

We prefer to stay away from campgrounds, truly dislike RV parks, and soon will be able to do so more so with these batteries, an inverter/charger upgrade and other smaller upgrades as necessary. I would like to get to the point to lose the shore power cord. We avoid summer weather but run into it on occasion and want an efficient A/C and the ability to run it afternoons. This way we can travel anywhere in the west, spur of the moment, given the ample FS and BLM lands, camp almost anywhere without reservations and worry.

[Ronbrink]

12 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

I still have not worked out the kinks on my DC/DC charger setup, averaging 11-15 amps on the road. So nowhere near the potential of the 50amp charger.

You may want to consider replacing the stock alternator with a high output unit. I started running into trouble when I swapped out the Renogy 20A DC-DC for a 40A, same brand. At idle, the Renogy was only providing around 25 amps and the TV battery was not being properly maintained. When using the A/C via inverter during brief stops, I generally keep the TV running so the DC-DC can augment the power consumption of the A/C; this has proven to be detrimental to the vehicles charging system! Also, I have issue in stop and go traffic when transiting cities. When running at speed, I get full charger output, but the alternator struggles to keep the TV’s battery appropriately charged. I recently purchased a 320A alternator (at high rpm) to replace the stock 165A, which produces 200 amps at idle; awaiting delivery of supplies needed for the install.

[jd1923]

5 hours ago, Ronbrink said:

... the TV battery was not being properly maintained...

I recently purchased a 320A alternator (at high rpm) to replace the stock 165A, which produces 200 amps at idle; awaiting delivery of supplies needed for the install.

I've warned about this in a few posts. I would fear issues with the ECM too, throwing codes.

What kind of alternator is that? Chevy/GM Delco or more likely special aftermarket? Wow, twice the amps output of an OEM alternator. I would like to find one for the Cummins. 200A at highway speeds would be good enough!

[Ronbrink]

3 hours ago, jd1923 said:

What kind of alternator is that? Chevy/GM Delco or more likely special aftermarket?

 

[jd1923]

Very cool @Ronbrink, they look great! Keep us posted.

They support many makes & models, but too bad for me they only have product for the 6.7L Cummins Ram (2011+) and not the older 5.9L.

[SeaDawg]

15 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I knew she was you Sherry, Jedi Master! You're the best and I am weak in my needs for my hi-rez TV monitor, with HD soundbar! 12V cannot compare for this and other needs. We must charge our laptops on the road, the Dewalt 20V charger for the many tools I use at home and some away (extra charger in the attic). Oh yeah, Chris uses a blow-dryer every few days when away and we will use our new oven likely every other day.

We prefer to stay away from campgrounds, truly dislike RV parks, and soon will be able to do so more so with these batteries, an inverter/charger upgrade and other smaller upgrades as necessary. I would like to get to the point to lose the shore power cord. We avoid summer weather but run into it on occasion and want an efficient A/C and the ability to run it afternoons. This way we can travel anywhere in the west, spur of the moment, given the ample FS and BLM lands, camp almost anywhere without reservations and worry.

We used a plug in "cigarette plug" charger for laptop. Don't carry one anymore. Phones and USB tablet are fine. We don't watch TV, so yeah, not an issue.

I have 12v hair dryer (somewhere, havent used it in 20 years) and a 12v blender, from the late 70s. I cook on fire, grill, or lp stove.

We're admittedly oddball. We camp to get away from the signals and entanglement,  but keep a line open for family.

I honestly don't care about ever getting another hard-wired  inverter. But that's me.

Everyone has a different camping style, and they should equip their trailer accordingly.

[Ronbrink]

14 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Very cool @Ronbrink, they look great! Keep us posted.

They support many makes & models, but too bad for me they only have product for the 6.7L Cummins Ram (2011+) and not the older 5.9L.

There are a few other manufacturers of quality high output alternators, some if not all provide custom builds. 

[rideadeuce]

@Ronbrink Emailed Tony @Mechman.com and ended up ordering the Elite series alternator for the Tundra. Thanks for reminding me. Hand-made in Knoxville, TN

Mike

Edited July 13 by rideadeuce

[Ronbrink]

1 hour ago, rideadeuce said:

@Ronbrink Emailed Tony @Mechman.com and ended up ordering the Elite series alternator for the Tundra. Thanks for reminding me. Hand-made in Knoxville, TN

Mike

It is recommended to use 1/0 pure copper cables when installing a high output alternator, in addition to keeping all stock ground wires. Most manufacturers offer a ‘Big 3 Wiring Kit’, but I made one up with an Amazon order from the WindyNation store. This also includes upgrading the stock grounding cable from the battery to engine block (in my application) to 1/0, as well.

 

Edited July 13 by Ronbrink

[katanapilot]

On 4/14/2024 at 7:34 PM, rideadeuce said:

I am going to be replacing my old Victron color display (push button) which took the place of the old Zamp solar charger. So yes, doing the same. 

 

For anyone reading the install, this is what I was trying to do without success so 

Any outlets that have GFCI then continue to have GFCI as they should. Those that don't are probably better not to have GFCI, as heavy loads (air conditioner, electric heat) would end up often tripping the GFCI inconveniently and unnecessarily.

 

Question about your GFCI comment.  At least with my factory wiring, the GFCI protection for all of the trailer outlets came from the GFCI feed at the Xantrex.  Removing the Xantrex (which I am doing shortly) removes the GFCI feed to all of the outlets.  I haven’t dug in yet, but it appears I need to either add a GFCI breaker in the panel (don’t know if that’s even possible), or install a GFCI outlet at the first outlet from the panel and then feed all others downstream on the load side of the GFCI.  
 

How did you do this? 

[rideadeuce]

4 hours ago, katanapilot said:

Question about your GFCI comment.  At least with my factory wiring, the GFCI protection for all of the trailer outlets came from the GFCI feed at the Xantrex.  Removing the Xantrex (which I am doing shortly) removes the GFCI feed to all of the outlets.  I haven’t dug in yet, but it appears I need to either add a GFCI breaker in the panel (don’t know if that’s even possible), or install a GFCI outlet at the first outlet from the panel and then feed all others downstream on the load side of the GFCI.  
 

How did you do this? 

When I took down the Xantrex, I took down the input leg and then cut short the other run to connect to the output straight from the 15 amp breaker (farthest right) that powers the first GFCI plug  (right side of dinette) that powers all the others plus the microwave I think. Then MPII Line IN from the PD ATS, then the Line OUT 1 from the MPII to the Main input at breaker box. Hope that helps. I am terrible and trying to draw diagrams on-line. Wish it was more clear. 

Mike

I am on vacation, so doing this by memory but I believe this is correct. 

Edited July 13 by rideadeuce

[katanapilot]

17 hours ago, rideadeuce said:

When I took down the Xantrex, I took down the input leg and then cut short the other run to connect to the output straight from the 15 amp breaker (farthest right) that powers the first GFCI plug  (right side of dinette) that powers all the others plus the microwave I think. Then MPII Line IN from the PD ATS, then the Line OUT 1 from the MPII to the Main input at breaker box. Hope that helps. I am terrible and trying to draw diagrams on-line. Wish it was more clear. 

Mike

I am on vacation, so doing this by memory but I believe this is correct. 

Appreciate the schematic.  Installing the Victron actually simplifies the AC wiring compared to the OEM wiring with the 2000va Xantrex.

Still unanswered is how you provide GFCI protection.  Your upper (OEM) schematic shows a GFCI outlet being fed from a switch.  Unless yours is different from mine, all GFCI protection came from the GFCI outlet on the Xantrex receptacle.  I can only assume you have now swapped out the first receptacle being fed from the plug (now directly connected to the upper C/B on the panel) with a GFCI and are now feeding all downstream receptacles from the load side of the GFCI.  Correct?

[jd1923]

3 hours ago, katanapilot said:

Unless yours is different from mine, all GFCI protection came from the GFCI outlet on the Xantrex receptacle.

I have thought there is no GFCI protection on the Oliver. That's the way it appears to me. Given the Xantrex has GFCI outlet(s), you must realize that when on shore power that outlet is not utilized so you have no GFCI protection.

Residential code (don't know for RVs) requires GFCI protection for bathroom and exterior outlets, for where water is present. You could replace the 15A breaker for "110 Outlets" with a GFCI breaker or replace the first outlet in line with a GFCI outlet.

It's crazy that OTT strings all the 110 outlets including one for the microwave. There is an independent breaker for the fridge. All they needed is an extra breaker for the microwave and a parallel cable run to the fridge run. Not sure if a 15A GFCI breaker can handle the microwave and still be responsive to a fault at another outlet. When the microwave is running, there is only about 5A available.

We have a 15A GFCI breaker at home. The builder wired 5 outlets in 3 bathrooms plus two exterior outlets on the deck. We added a flat grill on our deck. When the grill is running and Chris starts her blow dryer, we instantly lose power to all 7 outlets. Sometimes it blows without two heating appliances. It's 45 years old as is our house. I should buy a modern 20A GFCI thinking the cable AWG is adequate.

[katanapilot]

1 hour ago, jd1923 said:

I have thought there is no GFCI protection on the Oliver. That's the way it appears to me. Given the Xantrex has GFCI outlet(s), you must realize that when on shore power that outlet is not utilized so you have no GFCI protection.

Residential code (don't know for RVs) requires GFCI protection for bathroom and exterior outlets, for where water is present. You could replace the 15A breaker for "110 Outlets" with a GFCI breaker or replace the first outlet in line with a GFCI outlet.

It's crazy that OTT strings all the 110 outlets including one for the microwave. There is an independent breaker for the fridge. All they needed is an extra breaker for the microwave and a parallel cable run to the fridge run. Not sure if a 15A GFCI breaker can handle the microwave and still be responsive to a fault at another outlet. When the microwave is running, there is only about 5A available.

We have a 15A GFCI breaker at home. The builder wired 5 outlets in 3 bathrooms plus two exterior outlets on the deck. We added a flat grill on our deck. When the grill is running and Chris starts her blow dryer, we instantly lose power to all 7 outlets. Sometimes it blows without two heating appliances. It's 45 years old as is our house. I should buy a modern 20A GFCI thinking the cable AWG is adequate.

Here is what I understand.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

With the OEM wiring and the 2000va Xantrex inverter, there is a 30 amp feed from either of the external 30 amp twist lock receptacles to the transfer switch (if so equipped) ,through the EMS and then to the main feed of the circuit breaker panel.  One of the circuit breakers is a 20 amp feed to the AC input of the Xantrex.  This powers the Xantrex for battery charge capability and also feeds the included GFCI receptacle on the top of the Xantrex.  On my trailer, there is an access port under the drivers side bed to allow you to reset said GFCI.  This GFCI receptacle has a plug on a 12/2 romex cable, which then goes to the microwave and all of the 120 volt receptacles in the Oliver.  If I trip this breaker, I lose the battery charger, the microwave and the 120V outlets (on my trailer, Hull #628).

I believe that by removing the Xantrex and installing the Victron, unless you have replaced the first receptacle in the line with a GFCI receptacle - you now have NO ground fault protected outlets in your trailer.  Given my understanding of the wiring topography, I will either need to install a GFCI breaker in place of the microwave/outlet breaker (if one is available for this style panel) OR install a GFCI receptacle in the first one downstream of the C/B and then feed all remaining outlets downstream from the load side of the GFCI.

Again, if I misunderstand how this is wired, please correct me.