Update on Alcan springs and Monroe shocks...

[johnwen]

We're in southern Mississippi just after traversing some pretty rough roads across Louisiana.  We've retorqued the u bolts per Alcan's recommendations and then some.  A few still need minor tweaking so I'll continue checking for another 1000 miles or so.  The Alcans seem to be doing great and I'm glad we went that route.  Lew and Tucker were a pleasure to meet and they taught me a few things :)  I changed my Oliver shocks in July, in Maine, with Monroe Magnum 555001s.  Upon completion of the springs install in Colorado, Tucker informed me 1 of the struts were blown and would not extend after compressing it.  We continued on to our next destination without the bad shock installed and I re-installed another 555001 after a visit with O'Reilly (not a common stock item so had to be ordered ahead of time).  All was going well until Louisiana roads...after reaching Lake Mary Crawford, a public fishing lake by Monticello, MS, I discovered 2 more shocks leaking, removed them and ordered 2 more from O'Reilly.  Only 1 came in so I reinstalled the best of the 2.  They would extend ok after compressing so I figure they has some life left, but had oil that had leaked from the top of the shock.  I wiped the shocks down and will check on them from time to time until getting back to SC.  I'm thinking the frequent severe porpoising through dips in the road for over 30+  miles may have forced the oil out and down the bottom outside cylinder.  We will see if the struts continue to leak and report back at a later date.  My TV now has 121000+ miles (over 21000 so far this year alone since leaving SC) on it and I'm seriously thinking about replacing the shocks on it when we get back.  They're not leaking nor appear in bad shape but the truck seems to be a little more springy on hard stops and porpoises a little more than when newer.  The tires are new so no unusual wear at this time.  I have had zero problems with exchanging the bad shocks at O'Reilly's (lifetime guarantee...thanks Steve L)  but am thinking I'll want to try another brand to see if it lasts a little longer.  Still happy campers here... :)

John

[thompsonkd]

Wondering if you or anyone else has recommendations for a brand of  shocks. Sounds like you still like Monroe, despite the issues you have had; I have heard people also recommend Bulldog shocks but had trouble getting them? I think most Oliver’s come stock with Monroe. We are planning on replacing our shocks as well as the springs in the next few months. 

[Patriot]

1 hour ago, johnwen said:

We're in southern Mississippi just after traversing some pretty rough roads across Louisiana.  We've retorqued the u bolts per Alcan's recommendations and then some.  A few still need minor tweaking so I'll continue checking for another 1000 miles or so.  The Alcans seem to be doing great and I'm glad we went that route.  Lew and Tucker were a pleasure to meet and they taught me a few things 🙂 I changed my Oliver shocks in July, in Maine, with Monroe Magnum 555001s.  Upon completion of the springs install in Colorado, Tucker informed me 1 of the struts were blown and would not extend after compressing it.  We continued on to our next destination without the bad shock installed and I re-installed another 555001 after a visit with O'Reilly (not a common stock item so had to be ordered ahead of time).  All was going well until Louisiana roads...after reaching Lake Mary Crawford, a public fishing lake by Monticello, MS, I discovered 2 more shocks leaking, removed them and ordered 2 more from O'Reilly.  Only 1 came in so I reinstalled the best of the 2.  They would extend ok after compressing so I figure they has some life left, but had oil that had leaked from the top of the shock.  I wiped the shocks down and will check on them from time to time until getting back to SC.  I'm thinking the frequent severe porpoising through dips in the road for over 30+  miles may have forced the oil out and down the bottom outside cylinder.  We will see if the struts continue to leak and report back at a later date.  My TV now has 121000+ miles (over 21000 so far this year alone since leaving SC) on it and I'm seriously thinking about replacing the shocks on it when we get back.  They're not leaking nor appear in bad shape but the truck seems to be a little more springy on hard stops and porpoises a little more than when newer.  The tires are new so no unusual wear at this time.  I have had zero problems with exchanging the bad shocks at O'Reilly's (lifetime guarantee...thanks Steve L)  but am thinking I'll want to try another brand to see if it lasts a little longer.  Still happy campers here... 🙂

John

Thanks for the report John! 

Safe Travels to you and Wendy my friend. 

David 

[johnwen]

16 minutes ago, thompsonkd said:

Wondering if you or anyone else has recommendations for a brand of  shocks. Sounds like you still like Monroe, despite the issues you have had; I have heard people also recommend Bulldog shocks but had trouble getting them? I think most Oliver’s come stock with Monroe. We are planning on replacing our shocks as well as the springs in the next few months. 

Hi Kim and David,

No on the recommendations.  I like the lifetime warranty from O'Reilly but dislike the replacement frequency....don't know at this time if it is the TV causing the problem or the Monroe shock. Will provide update as time goes on. Next course of action for me is to replace all shocks on my TV.  It appears the unavailable Bulldog may be the only option (but that is not much of an option if unavailable).  I asked O'Reilly if 555001 leads to other option but they saw none.

[thompsonkd]

Thanks Jonwen, appreciate your response. Look forward to hearing what you say about the shocks after a bit of time. 

[jd1923]

At the price point you could buy two extras so you could do the warranty exchange and always have two good shocks on hand.

You know, I’ve owned many cargo and stock trailers 7K and 10.2K and none of them have had shocks. Are they necessary? Many Oliver Owners have 1-4 blown shocks and do not know so.

[johnwen]

1 hour ago, jd1923 said:

At the price point you could buy two extras so you could do the warranty exchange and always have two good shocks on hand.

You know, I’ve owned many cargo and stock trailers 7K and 10.2K and none of them have had shocks. Are they necessary? Many Oliver Owners have 1-4 blown shocks and do not know so.

JD

Tucker at Alcan shares that view as well....that's why we don't mind driving with the bad one removed until I can replace it.  Good point about extras.  I'm getting pretty good with the changeouts  :)  My bad experience was having to change out the severely cupped tires that I suspect was the fault of the sheared shafts on the front 2 shocks (previous post).  Hopefully changing out the TV shocks will help.

[johnwen]

1 hour ago, thompsonkd said:

Thanks Jonwen, appreciate your response. Look forward to hearing what you say about the shocks after a bit of time. 

Probably won't get the TV shocks changed until Dec and won't know the effect until our trip out to Quartzsite mid January.  Will follow up!

[Geronimo John]

4 hours ago, johnwen said:

don't know at this time if it is the TV causing the problem or the Monroe shock.

You may be the high mileage leader on the Alcan's.  Sounds like you logged 21,000 after getting the Alcons. 

It us statically interesting that you would have problems with so many shocks from different stores over such a short period of time.

We did over a month in Alaska two years ago, and also transverse fire roads much of our of our 3 - 4 month season each year.  When I replaced our springs and shocks this past summer, we had seven seasons and 31K miles on the Monroe's and our Ollie.  I frankly was surprised that all four shocks were still serviceable.  

I hope I don't get tared and feathered for even suggesting... 

But with such experience from several batches of Monroe shocks, a third possibility could be that with your miles you may have uncovered another hidden concern with having really strong springs  under your trailer.  Something to monitor as you gather up more miles and others with this combination travel.  Stronger springs for a given load will have different rebound characteristics.  For the Alcon/Monroe's, the Monroe's may not be able to handle the springs.  Something to ponder further.  

GJ

[johnwen]

9 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Stronger springs for a given load will have different rebound characteristics.  For the Alcon/Monroe's, the Monroe's may not be able to handle the springs

Hi GJ,

I haven't had the Alcans but for only a couple of weeks (Colorado to Mississippi).  Tucker did say he wouldn't be surprised if the stiffer springs would HELP with absorbing  more of the road oscillations and make it a little easier on the shocks.  We travel with the cruise on 62 mph...max.  And most of the severe dips occur on the interstate for us.  I try to use the tell tale signs of trucks black tire marks around those dips I'm talking about, but with a few floaters in my eyes I sometimes don't see them as fast as I should.  A few on the back roads but mostly on the interstates.  Potholes are the main surprise on the back roads, not so much on the severe dips.  We attempt to avoid interstates if at all possible...fewer crazy drivers, better roads, and much better views (we don't need to get anywhere fast).  We will continue to replace the shocks as needed for I feel they do smooth the ride out for the trailer (IMO).  I could tell a difference when living in our Casita.  Things remained in place better for the ride down the road.  I have experience with and without shocks for the Casita.  I'll take the shocks!  I may take the speed down to 60mph...I'm in my own world at those speeds anyway :)  Could be that the Oliver could benefit with a redesign to accommodate larger shocks similar to that of a vehicle.  I need to find and test out a Bulldog shock, if I can find one.  I'll post back in a couple of months to reveal my experiences.

John

Edited October 23 by johnwen

[jd1923]

12 hours ago, johnwen said:

… My bad experience was having to change out the severely cupped tires that I suspect was the fault of the sheared shafts on the front 2 shocks…

John, just read this again…

I would check your wheel bearings regarding cupped tires. In a TV it means alignment but there is no alignment on trailers. To do so, lift each wheel off ground, hands on tire at 3 and 9 o’clock positions to check if there is any shake. Turn the wheel some and shake hard a few times. If you find ANY wobble at all then the axle nut needs to be tightened. If you have packed the bearings in the last 1-2 years, just tighten the nut. If not, it’s time to clean and pack the wheel bearings.

I’m not sure but thinking bad shocks or even no shocks should not affect tire wear. Shocks merely stop the pendulum effect of spring bounce. I guess excessive bounce could affect tires, though less likely than bearings.

Edited October 23 by jd1923

[Geronimo John]

3 hours ago, johnwen said:

Tucker did say he wouldn't be surprised if the stiffer springs would HELP with absorbing  more of the road oscillations and make it a little easier on the shocks

I think Tucker is right, but only with the assumption that the shocks have the dampening capability to do so.  More detail follows:

The dampers job is not only to control the rate of energy transfer to the spring, but also the rate at which it is released.  The process takes the movement (Up and Down) and converts it to heat. Generally speaking stiffer springs require stronger damping to deal with the heat being generated by the stiffer springs.  You can see this in many Asian suspension systems that use stiffer springs and are tuned with stiffer damping. 

Spring rates and damping are definitely connected.  An increase in spring rate will require an increase in rebound damping to control it.  This principle is in my opinion why I think that the Monroe shocks we are using do not have sufficient dampening capacity when used with the Alcon's.  The net result I believe is that the Monroe's are being damaged by the heat generated by the Alcon's.

For those wanting a deeper dive, here is a great web site to guide you through the math to do so:

https://www.shimrestackor.com/Code/Sample_Applications/Spring_Change/spring-change.htm

Just be aware that you'll get into some deep math pretty quickly.   LOL!

GJ

GJ

 

[John and Debbie]

19 hours ago, thompsonkd said:

Wondering if you or anyone else has recommendations for a brand of  shocks. Sounds like you still like Monroe, despite the issues you have had; I have heard people also recommend Bulldog shocks but had trouble getting them? I think most Oliver’s come stock with Monroe. We are planning on replacing our shocks as well as the springs in the next few months. 

Contact Lew at Alcan Springs in Grand Junction, Colorado.  I have been in contact with him and he has a shock in mind for when we visit him in April for a five spring leaf spring replacement of our current four leaf.

John

[johnwen]

2 hours ago, John and Debbie said:

Contact Lew at Alcan Springs in Grand Junction, Colorado.  I have been in contact with him and he has a shock in mind for when we visit him in April for a five spring leaf spring replacement of our current four leaf.

John

Thanks, John....hope that is in the future.  Thanks, all, for your help and info.  About the wheel bearings...Hull 996 picked up on 13 Jan and been back to Oliver twice now for annual service.  They have checked the bearings as good and I have as well.  No wobble at all.  After severe cupping on one wheel I changed all tires for 4 new ones.  Trailer had over 42,000 miles at that time.  Then on to Alcan where the 5th strut failed on the way.  Actually after finding total failure of the front two struts, I just replaced them all.  Here are the original 2 that I removed after the severe cupping started.  We are safely on the road to SC with good struts...for now :)

Is it possible the numerous severe dips in the road can cause fluid from within the strut to be forced out with a really large compression and over time become dry inside the cylinder, where it no longer is effective at all?

GJ...I'm going to need a beer before I start reading your reply :)  Probably tonight :)  Thanks for your help.

John

 

 

Edited October 23 by johnwen

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, johnwen said:

Trailer had over 42,000 miles at that time. 

Is that on one set of tires?

[johnwen]

3 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Is that on one set of tires?

Yes

[johnwen]

GJ,

I read your link...I needed 2 beers before I understood that I don't understand :(

"Tau" and "race sag" did me in  I quit reading toward the end of the article when I realized I will not be able to change the shocks oil viscosity...

John

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, johnwen said:

Yes

42K on trailer tires seems like decent life expectancy. But "severe cupping on one wheel" is odd. Could be an issue local to that wheel, or merely a defective tire. Watch that tire position for cupping on your new set of tires.

But those shocks look just awful!

I believe @Geronimo John is correct re the shocks. It's like mounting shocks engineered for a 1500 truck on a 2500. These Monroes, or even the same spec Bulldog shocks, would hardly dampen the 4x 2750# Alcan leaf springs and will likely fail more often and more quickly.

Whoever talks to Alcan next, please ask the shock make and model number of the shock they suggest and post this info on our Oliver Forum. Thank you.

[Geronimo John]

7 hours ago, jd1923 said:

9 hours ago, johnwen said:

Trailer had over 42,000 miles at that time. 

Is that on one set of tires?

JD: It would not surprise me at all if it was.  JohnW's and mine came off the line within a week or so.  Both have these tires: 

My 2018 Ollie Michelin's now have 42,000 miles on them with no cracking and about 2/3 of the tread left.  Close inspection by Discount Tire cleared them for a couple more years.  But I changed out the springs and shocks ten thousand miles ago.  I thank Scott Oliver on a regular basis for these tires on ours.

Down the road, regardless of what springs our OE2 owners choose to use, it is my strong recommendation that if you have over 30,000 miles and you have  the Dexter 1750# rated ones, it is time to change them when it is easy for you to do so.  I strongly recommend doing so where you like, and not being forced to do so on the highway somewhere out in the boondocks.  ESPECIALLY if you are considering Alaska and don't live there.   🙂

 

GJ

 

Edited October 24 by Geronimo John
typo

[Ronbrink]

21 hours ago, johnwen said:

I try to use the tell tale signs of trucks black tire marks around those dips I'm talking about,

The dark spots at road dips are the result of oil droplets from fluid leaks, the sudden bounce forces these accumulations to release and drip onto the road surface. 

[johnwen]

20 hours ago, johnwen said:

Thanks, John....hope that is in the future.  Thanks, all, for your help and info.  About the wheel bearings...Hull 996 picked up on 13 Jan and been back to Oliver twice now for annual service.  They have checked the bearings as good and I have as well.  No wobble at all.  After severe cupping on one wheel I changed all tires for 4 new ones.  Trailer had over 42,000 miles at that time.  Then on to Alcan where the 5th strut failed on the way.  Actually after finding total failure of the front two struts, I just replaced them all.  Here are the original 2 that I removed after the severe cupping started.  We are safely on the road to SC with good struts...for now :)

Is it possible the numerous severe dips in the road can cause fluid from within the strut to be forced out with a really large compression and over time become dry inside the cylinder, where it no longer is effective at all?

GJ...I'm going to need a beer before I start reading your reply :)  Probably tonight :)  Thanks for your help.

John

 

 

Just to be clear about this picture...these are Oliver stock shocks on Oliver stock springs on Oliver stock 3500lb axles taken off at 42000 miles.  Both from the front axle with one severely cupped tire and one lightly to moderately cupped.  Rear tires were fine but replaced anyway.

John 

[Geronimo John]

Jon:  

Wow, not seen total structural failure of shocks like the above picture in a long time.  

Your initial post stated "but had oil that had leaked from the top of the shock" would lead me to believe the failure was during compression of the shock and then when the trailer came back down and bounced off the highway/road, the shock would be extending with extreme force.  Likely the structural failure occurred as the bottom separated from the top of the shock. 

 "after traversing some pretty rough roads across Louisiana":  Could it have happened on these roads?  

GJ

.

[johnwen]

1 hour ago, Geronimo John said:

Jon:  

Wow, not seen total structural failure of shocks like the above picture in a long time.  

Your initial post stated "but had oil that had leaked from the top of the shock" would lead me to believe the failure was during compression of the shock and then when the trailer came back down and bounced off the highway/road, the shock would be extending with extreme force.  Likely the structural failure occurred as the bottom separated from the top of the shock. 

 "after traversing some pretty rough roads across Louisiana":  Could it have happened on these roads?  

GJ

.

GJ

We are all over the country and we encounter those massive dips in many states but mostly in Louisiana.  We strive to use roads other than interstates but have to use the interstates every once in a while.  I'll slow to 60 (from 62) while traveling  and give much more respect to those dark streaks on the roads.  They almost always indicate a dip worth respect.  At times the TV bottoms out on the front end and I feel as though the trailer has at times come close to weightlessness.  I'm anxious get the shocks replaced on the truck (121000+ miles) and start out again in January.  Will update the forum early next year.

John

 

"lead me to believe the failure was during compression of the shock and then when the trailer came back down and bounced off the highway/road, the shock would be extending with extreme force.  Likely the structural failure occurred as the bottom separated from the top of the shock." 

I think you are correct, sir :)

Edited October 24 by johnwen

[Jason Foster]

On 10/24/2024 at 2:40 PM, Geronimo John said:

Jon:  

Wow, not seen total structural failure of shocks like the above picture in a long time.  

Your initial post stated "but had oil that had leaked from the top of the shock" would lead me to believe the failure was during compression of the shock and then when the trailer came back down and bounced off the highway/road, the shock would be extending with extreme force.  Likely the structural failure occurred as the bottom separated from the top of the shock. 

 "after traversing some pretty rough roads across Louisiana":  Could it have happened on these roads?  

GJ

.

I wonder if installing some kind of urethane bump stop and limiter straps would help.

[Geronimo John]

4 minutes ago, Jason Foster said:

I wonder if installing some kind of urethane bump stop and limiter straps would help

I actually looked into the bump stop idea, but the clearance is so small I did no find any would fit and still be progressive in nature.  IF one has overhead clearance when in storage, flipping the axle would give the clearance for a bump stop.  I don't have any spare clearance so I stood down on the idea.

GJ