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Spring over axle lift


John E Davies

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We didn't go with the Earth Cruiser because climbing up the steps into it wasn't safely doable for us...

 

I would have them put your DC and USB outlets behind a weather proof cover, those little caps, I can't see lasting or being used outside in the first place. There's no way that I can trust those cheap plastic covers to seal out the rain after seeing them tear off so easily in person inside. They should have used the duplex USB & 12vdc outlet and covered it like the standard 120vac outlet mounted below.

 

https://www.amazon.com/MOUNT-12V-VPA-SOCKET-CHARGING-STATION/dp/B00SVVQHKW

Happy Camping,


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Reed & Karen Lukens with Riffles our Miniature Poodle


2017 Oliver Legacy Elite II  Standard, Hull #200 / 2017 Silverado High Country 1500 Short Bed 4x4


Past TV - 2012 Mercedes-Benz ML350 4Matic BlueTEC Diesel


Click on our avatar pic above to find the videos on our Oliver Legacy Elite II


 

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Been following this closely, since if I purchase an Oliver it will need to be lifted.  Disappointing that the spring over axle lift didn't work out like you'd hoped.  At this point I'm counting on having a shop fab me up something but not sure what I want.  So if spring over axle is a no go, what's the next best option?  Timbren?

2018 OLEII #344   |   2018 Ford Expedition

 

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If the spring over modification isn't practical, it might be better to re-design the subframe and add a section of 4" steel box tubing between the subframe angle iron and the spring hangars.    This would have the existing steel angle, then the 4" box section below that.  Then the spring hangars would mount to the box.  It would need some additional cross bracing.

 

This would keep the shocks and hardware all the same and raise the trailer 4 inches.  It would be a bolt on option that Oliver could offer with no changes to anything else.  Simply check the "high model" or the "low model" box on the order form.

 

The method I'm suggesting would also be an easy fabrication as the existing subframe is steel and just bolts on.  That frame could be unbolted and rolled out from under the trailer where it would be modified and rolled back into place to be re-installed.

 

I don't think this modification is really needed in any but the most extreme conditions.   Olivers already have excellent ground clearance and will easily go into some pretty rough spots.   Since it could easily be altered later, it would be better to try the existing setup before deciding in advance that it's not good enough.   How much stability and overhead clearance are you willing to lose to get more ground clearance?  I've had mine in spots that were just about all that my Ram could pull it through with big holes and rocks on steep rocky trails.   Clearance was not a problem as much as traction as we crawled along in four low.  Even though these are not off-road trailers, they are far better than many because they don't have hanging down plumbing or tanks.

 

I feel that individuals should do this on their own and not expect Oliver to do it.  Lifted, the trailers will not be as stable and you can't expect Oliver to be responsible for that.  These are not designed to be off road trailers.  If you need something you can drag over boulders and up cliffs with a winch and a Jeep, this isn't the trailer to consider.  They are heavy, they don't have huge tires and they only have leaf spring suspension.  The bodies are not set up to accommodate bigger tires either.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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It may have been posted before in this thread, but the original Olivers were spring over axle, which is apparent in a lot of the old photos.  I don't think I've ever seen an Elite 2 raised.  It could be that the Elite 2 is just too big and heavy to sit that high, or it could be that Oliver's top heavy tolerance has waned.

 

I'm very interested though in the modifications that were needed, since none are apparent.

 

If you went through the trouble of modifying the subframe, it might be possible to use a longer spring and increase the tire size a bit.  You might get 1 size up before the wheel well became your limit.  Might, being the key word - I wouldn't count on it.  But right now, if you tried putting bigger tires on, they'd rub against one another.

 

John, if anyone were to fab what you suggest, I think I'd go a step further and weld in a couple of cross pieces connecting the two sides.  That would stiffen it up and perhaps also give you mounting points for sway bars.

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Overland,

 

 

 

I suggested "additional cross bracing" in my last post.  That's important.  Also, wider tires and/or wider wheels will not clear the shocks, unless the offset is changed.  Then they'll stick out beyond the fenders.  Bad idea for an off road trailer, or even one that travels in the mountains in winter.

 

If someone really is going to drag an LE2 into places where these changes are needed, it woud be a good idea to go to the 5200 lb axles too.

 

Now, how much are we up to?  New axles, modified subframe, new wheels and tires, fender flares.  Now it's wider and taller!

 

 

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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As an owner of one of the early "Stripper Pole" (woohoo!) high lift Ollies and someone who flew jets and helicopters for a living, I am very familiar with issues regarding center of gravity and dynamic rollover.  With The Wonder Egg sitting high, the reason I always travel with a full fresh water tank is to keep the center of gravity as low as possible in order to improve stability during angular acceleration under windy conditions.  I also moderate my speed under those conditions whenever possible.  This has worked well for 112,000 miles (knock on wood).

 

Given the extra 5 feet of length and additional height of fiberglass in the Elite II, combined with additional storage space at higher levels you will be catching more wind and can raise your center of gravity higher.  I realize your stance is slightly wider but would want to know, engineering wise, what the implications of any lift would be.  Perhaps you would be encroaching on an unsafe condition with an extreme lift to your trailers.  While it might enhance off road travel, you need to consider all ramifications of such a modification.

 

Be safe out there and have FUN.

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Pete & "Bosker".    TV -  '18 F150 Super-cab Fx4; RV  - "The Wonder Egg";   '08 Elite, Hull Number 014.

 

Travel blog of 1st 10 years' wanderings - http://www.peteandthewonderegg.blogspot.com

 

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I believe I remember, airstream owners (and YouTubers) More We Explore lifting both of their trailers using Dexter's own 3" lift kit, John's suggestion sounds pretty much the same. If I come across the reference I'll post it.

Randy


One Life Live It Enjoyably


2017 F350 6.7L SRW CC LB


2015 Oliver Elite II Hull #69

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  • 1 month later...

Just to update, we just finished our first 4000 mile trip out west and I think that we're O.K. with the trailer's clearance as it is.  I did bonk the steps once, and wish that Oliver would still do the single step as an option (willing to trade with anyone who wants a double step).  I'm also concerned about the way Oliver mounted the disc brake actuator hanging under the frame, but that deserves it's own lengthy post.  But apart from those two items, I think - think - that the clearance is good enough for anyplace that we're otherwise willing to take the trailer.

 

I'm still concerned, however about the limited suspension travel, and think that we'll have to find a solution for that.

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  • 6 months later...

Updating an older thread, how about the Correct Track? This gives you two inches lift with no mods to existing suspension other than extending the brake wires.... A skilled owner can do it at home.

 

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Suspension/Lippert-Components/LC87220.html

 

As a bolt on kit, I would be happier if the brackets were welded at the top to prevent any looseness. I would still like a little height to improve the departure angle. The alignment capabilities are secondary and not likely to be needed. Two inches lift is not great, but it is better than none.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

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SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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Interesting but I’m more interested in the Lippert centerpoint suspension. You get the same lift plus a better ride on gravel. It’s on my list for some day.

 

Though the price in the Correct Track is certainly more palatable.

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Their independent suspension solution is well regarded from what I’ve read. I just can’t get past depending on those rubber straps - I have an old Soloflex machine and I know from experience that when their rubber straps break it isn’t a gradual thing but immediate and visually there’s no warning. Of course, the rubber compound could be different and reliable but I just think I’d be constantly nervous about it. With air bags I can envision carrying a spare but I don’t know if spares of those rubber blocks are reasonable to carry. Maybe if I could see one in person I’d be more comfortable with it.

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  • 11 months later...

Bringing back an old thread, I am tired of my u bolts smashing into the frame, that is really hard on the parts...Any new comments or ideas about extra lift and especially additional travel?? I want longer travel for gravel, but also for dealing with 6 inch deep potholes on the road.... I hit one a few days ago at speed. My 200 shrugged it off but the trailer gave a terrific BAAA-BAAAANG.

 

That is yet another reason to run lower tire pressures in the trailer.... I am now down to 42 psi.

 

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John Davies

 

Spokane WA

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SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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Something on my long term to do is to look more into the Lippert Centerpoint equalizers.  They're supposed to add about an inch in height, along with smoothing out the ride.  Might be a solution.  I've got the same dings, as I suspect most owners do.

 

The MorRyde suspension might do the same, if you prefer rubber bands over balloons.

 

Another option would be to weld on longer leaf spring hangers.

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A "spring over" would definitely give you more travel and you could install a nice rubber bumper or Timbren donut.  But It would be so much lift that it might affect stability.  I don't think there is much we can do to significantly improve the "utility trailer" suspension system on our Olivers when compared to the fabulous systems on the Australian off-road campers.

 

A nice compromise might be to modify the suspension truck with longer spring hangars as Overland suggested.  But what a hassle.  You'd have to pull out the truck and grind away the galvanizing to do it.

 

Another idea is to do a spring over, but use a drop axles.  This would give you approximately the same ride height as now, but with the springs over the axles for more travel.  Then add the Timbrens for a kinder stop.  You could keep the same soft springs we have now.  It would probably work best with about a 2" drop, which would net about a 2" lift and give room for the wheels to go up farther into the wheel wells. If you chose to do that, you could upgrade at the time to 5200 lb axles and get the bigger brakes.  I think this is the method I would pursue.

 

If you just added a leaf, the ride would get stiffer.  But if you could find a spring pack with the same number of leaves, and more arch, it might be a reasonable compromise.

 

You may just have to stomp off in disgust and go buy a Black Series Caravan!

 

I think the spring-over with drop axles, Timbren stops and stock springs, is the best I can come up with.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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Here is a cool video about a custom Icon suspension on a Turtleback Adventure trailer. Most of it is fluff but starting at 9:00 you can watch one wheel articulate.

 

 

Since I do want to add disc brakes, that would be best the time to go to 5200 lb 2” drop axles, mount the stock springs on top and put on rubber bump stops. That sounds like a winner to me. I would like a little extra ride height, for tail dragging reasons.

 

Would sourcing longer shocks be an issue? Can you search by length?

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

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SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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JD – check your PM.

 

Messages are down, I will try later.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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John,

 

 

 

You can search for shocks by length, but it can be a hassle.  Once you find the ones, and what they are made for, you can just go ask for shocks for that particular vehicle.  You have to know the mounting style on top and bottom of the shock.  I once found that shocks for a certain year Corvette fit a trailer I built.  Then I found some for a certain model Volvo fit my Samurai.

 

I recently wanted Rancho shocks 2" longer than stock for my Jeep.  The parts guy assured me they were right, but they turned out to be about 3 1/2" longer and would bind on compression if installed.  Then the next set I ordered were said to be for a 2" lift, but were shorter than stock!  So, you really have to know what extension and compression lengths you want and how much tolerance you have with those measurements.  Then you have to find those measurements with the mounting style you need.  Then, of course, with the shocks at the angle they are, you can't just add 2" for a 2"lift.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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Maybe i’m Just over simplifying the issue, but if you just want additional lift, why can’t you just get new springs with an additional 2 in lift in the arc. A while back I had to replace both springs on a 49 year old boat trailer, I took the springs to a local shop and they asked if I wanted any additional lift, they reproduced the same spring with a 2 in lift with the same # of leafs, the only problem I could foresee would be the shocks, there weren’t any on my boat trl.

 

On a side note, the above mentioned boat is a 1970 Ranger bass boat, and while the gelcoat is faded the fiberglass is still in excellent shape, a quality product lasts a long time.

 

Steve

STEVEnBETTY

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Maybe i’m Just over simplifying the issue, but if you just want additional lift, why can’t you just get new springs with an additional 2 in lift in the arc. A while back I had to replace both springs on a 49 year old boat trailer, I took the springs to a local shop and they asked if I wanted any additional lift, they reproduced the same spring with a 2 in lift with the same # of leafs, the only problem I could foresee would be the shocks.

New springs are a possibility, how much did yours cost?

 

I am a little reluctant to go this route since if you have a problem on the road, getting a replacement would be MUCH harder than buying a complete new set of Dexter ones. I guess you could have an extra one made, and bolt it to the frame somewhere, as a spare. I carried the old heavy springs this way on a utility trailer when I installed lighter ones.

 

Would taller springs have more side to side instability, and stress the hangers?

 

Did you install bump stops on your trailer to prevent excess motion, which can lead to failure?

 

For a regular cheap trailer suspension I think it should stay close to stock... a spring over axle conversion is common and only changes the position of the mount. For a high quality custom suspension, like trailing A Arms with coil or air springs, you are relying on a higher level of materials and a better design rather than ease of finding parts.tho even a high dollar suspension should have easily changed spindles and use common sized bearings.

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

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Maybe i’m Just over simplifying the issue, but if you just want additional lift, why can’t you just get new springs with an additional 2 in lift in the arc. A while back I had to replace both springs on a 49 year old boat trailer, I took the springs to a local shop and they asked if I wanted any additional lift, they reproduced the same spring with a 2 in lift with the same # of leafs, the only problem I could foresee would be the shocks, there weren’t any on my boat trl.

Steve

 

 

This could be the answer, and I can see it on a boat trailer, but I wonder if it would really improve the quality of the ride much?  Our Oliver's have relatively soft springs and we need more than the 2" of travel. Plus we don't need a hard frame impact as the stop.  That is very crude.  The quality of the ride is really important and I find I have to just creep along on rough roads to prevent chaos inside.

 

It just seems like trying to lift the trailer with more arch, on a spring under design, is working against yourself.  Unless ride quality is not important, such as in utility trailers, for instance.  The main area I would like better suspension in is the quality of the travel.  If we had our 2" of travel and then a Timbren donut, it would offer a very progressive rise rate, without the hard stop.

 

I changed the rear springs on my 1st gen Dodge Ram Cummins pickup.  It had lifting blocks from the factory that allowed the stock springs to be relatively flat, or straight.  The new springs had more arch and did away with the OEM lifting blocks, while giving an inch or so of added ride height.  So, the springs had a much more pronounced arch to them than the stock ones.

 

This made the truck handle terribly.  The reason was the angle that the spring sat at from the front pivot back to the axle.  A steeper down angle than stock, in the area in front of the axle.

 

As the truck went around a corner and leaned, the outside spring would flatten out a bit.  This moved that side of the axle back.  As the spring went from a steep down angle to a more level angle, on one side, the axle was pushed toward the rear on that side.  That meant the axle was not in line with the truck and was steering from the rear.  It always felt like the rear end was trying to come around in a slide.  Very unnerving and annoying.

 

In a trailer setting, this affect would promote sway because as the trailer leaned, to the right, for instance, it would also steer to the right.  Then lean to the left and steer to the left.  It seems like it could become quite unstable as it steered back and forth with wider sway on each cycle, as it leaned more each time.   Combine that with a higher center of gravity from the lift, and the problem gets worse.

 

So, a flatter spring is better for stability.   So much thought and energy goes into preventing sway, that it seems counter-productive to do anything that is known to decrease stability, even though Oliver's are very stable to begin with and may have some tolerance for change.

 

I'd be willing to go up about 2", to allow more travel and have a Timbren donut, or to allow the tires to travel farther without contacting the wheel well interiors.  But that's about it for me.  And the springs will have to be as flat as possible.  So that means a spring over, unless I want to modify the suspension truck, which I don't want to do.  It seems it comes back to, once again,  a spring over design with drop axles.  Then the search for shocks will begin.

 

I tried to do this exact thing on another trailer that I built, but the problem there was getting the right drop axles.  I was not able to get axles that cleared the frame and would allow the spring perches to be where they needed to be.   The forged drop piece has to clear the frame and then turn out to accept the brake flange while still allowing the wheel flange to be in the correct stock position.  We can't change the axle flange-to-flange width unless we are willing to buy new special wheels with  something different than zero offset.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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I agree with Raspy on the above.  I don't think you want to fiddle with the spring rate much and one of the reasons I've not looked further into the Lippert or MorRyde systems is concern over what that might do to stability.  The truth is that however much gravel and dirt each of us sees, we still do 90% of our travel on the highway and safety there trumps anything else.  I've read a few cases over on Expedition portal where guys who have bought Australian campers or US ones with offroad suspensions have had to go back and add big sway bars to eliminate the sway on highways.

 

I've also noticed that most of my suspension woes come from poor paved roads and not gravel/dirt.  On gravel, and especially dirt, you're traveling at slow enough speeds that the bigger bumps are taken just by the trailer tilting back and forth.  I've seen no need for a long travel suspension anywhere that I'm willing to risk taking the trailer*. Same goes for clearance.  I've hit the steps once, but haven't scraped the bumper yet.  The primary issue off pavement for me is vibration.  On the other hand, big dips, potholes and bumps on a poorly paved road often take you by surprise and you can't slow down quickly enough to make them not hurt.  And wow have I had some moments of hurt, even on interstates.  Much, much worse than anything I've experienced off pavement.

 

 

 

*Frankly, while those Australian suspension systems look amazing, I've come to really question the need.  Long travel suspensions are either for absorbing big high speed whoops, like a Baja truck, or for rock crawling.  On a trailer you don't need a rock crawling suspension because you have no traction to gain.  And if you're traveling on gravel fast enough to need a Baja suspension, you're just going way too fast.

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John, it’s been a while since I had the springs made but I believe they were around $75 a piece. No I didn’t add or modify anything else, but the boat and trl combined were under 3,000 lbs.

 

If i remember correctly Overland had Oliver do the spring over conversion, and for whatever reason it didn’t work out, so they changed it back to stock.

 

Steve

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STEVEnBETTY

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