What's your tow vehicle, it's tow weight rating & what are you towing?

[KarenLukens]

Reed, like you say, there are good arguments to be made for diesels. I just didn’t think that your first post was one of those.

I made an attempt at least... :) The Defender was the best Land Rover had, too bad they stopped making it.

[John E Davies]

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2017/05/which-premium-truck-performs-best-as-a-daily-driver.html

 

Don't let mpgs rule your search. The best unladen fuel economy of the group came from the Titan XD but it really struggled pulling a trailer near its max load. Its always best to err on the side of "too much truck" than the other way around, which happens all too often.

 

John Davies

 

Sokane WA

[Overland]

I went today and drove the Discovery.  I'm not sure what to think.  It's pretty much a modern version of my 15-year old X5, but with much better ground clearances and AWD system.  Really nice materials, good highway handling, acceleration, etc.  It's the slightest bit clumsier feeling than I expected - a bit more body roll and bounce than the X, even though it has low profile street tires compared to my larger profile all terrains.  Nothing that would bother me, but it was noticeable.  The tech is amazing, but I think I prefer Ford's simpler Sync to the Disco's system if only because it's much faster.  It's about 4" wider and 12" longer inside than the X.  I'd give up a ton of storage vs a truck of any sort.  From the outside, it looks like an X5 in need of a better diet.

 

I have to say that it doesn't really feel like it belongs off road, not that I doubt that it's capable.  Part of that is due to the fact that it lowers down when parked so you can't really get a feel for it's ground clearance.  I do know that I'd have a terrible time finding all terrain tires for its 19" wheels.

 

It doesn't feel like it should tow what it does, either.  Maybe that's a compliment - 8,200lbs and a 750lb tongue weight, which should be perfectly fine for the Ollie.  I drove the diesel which lowers that to 7,700lbs.  Tongue weight stays the same.  The tag on the hitch only listed weights for a load carrying hitch, so I'm going to guess that you can't use a WD hitch on it.  It's a unibody design, so that would make sense.  But with a 750lb rating it shouldn't be an issue.  I liked the diesel, and the salesman told me it was going to be 28mpg highway.  Payload on the one I drove was 1,200 lbs.  Subtracting out maybe 700lbs for tongue weight and 260 for my wife and me leaves 240lbs, which isn't a lot for camping gear.  But maybe we could shift heavier stuff to the trailer and transfer it to the Disco only when needed.

 

They package their options poorly.  For example, I can't get a low range transfer case without getting third row seats - figure that one out.

 

It's nice though, and when the wife goes to drive it, she'll want it.

 

I also dropped by the Ford dealer and drove an F250, just for contrast.  I really enjoy the way those drive.  To me, it's a much better ride than the 150 - so much better balanced and stable feeling, despite the added weight.  I could tow three Olivers with that thing and probably carry another in the bed.

[John E Davies]

Overlander, since you are out test driving vehicles, try a Land Cruiser 200. It is more expensive than a Disco but much more capable offroad than any uni-body LR, and WAY better built. You could pick up a really nice Certified 2014+ for the price of a new Discovery.

 

The downside is that people will mistake it for a Highlander instead of a space vehicle.... or that's an upside, I dunno.

 

Stock articulation:

 

 

A Disco would have one tire a foot in the air.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

 

 

[Overland]

Thanks, I'm going to.  I actually went by the Toyota dealership today but they didn't have any in stock.

[John E Davies]

Thanks, I’m going to. I actually went by the Toyota dealership today but they didn’t have any in stock.

Sorry for the double post....

They are sold in tiny numbers, so you will need to use Autotrader or Car Gurus to locate one. Even a used one will show you a lot, there have been minimal changes through the years. Try Crawl mode, it is very entertaining.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[Going]

Hi Mike. I am about to purchase an Elite II. I have a Dodge 1500 2004 Hemi. Same towing capacity as yours. Curious about a few things. Do you feel much up and down movement?  I assume with duel axel it helps but the 2500 being stiffer just curious. Guess I am asking how much you feel it back there?

[Overland]

After talking to many people at the rally, we've decided that the added storage and flexibility of a pickup bed is a must for us, so we've crossed the Land Cruiser and Discovery off our list.  We're both going to test drive the F150 and F250 back to back again tonight and will make our decision this week.

 

I made a little spreadsheet comparing the extra cost of some of these vehicles vs the projected payback from better gas mileage and really the only one that makes any sense from that standpoint would be the Disco, at about an 8 year payback.  The F250 diesel would be a 17 year payback and the added interest cost on the more expensive Land Cruiser would actually be more than the fuel savings so it would never pay for itself .  And that's assuming that I can run regular gas in the Cruiser.  If I have to use premium, then the fuel cost is higher as well.

 

In terms of towing range, the Land Cruiser is the worst at an estimated 295 miles towing vs the Raptor at 324.  The F250 of course is the best option in that regard with a 510 mile towing range.  I estimated the Disco at 423.  For those calculations and the cost calculations above, I assumed a towing MPG of 9 for the Raptor, 12 for the Land Cruiser, 18 for the Disco Diesel, and 15 for the F250 Diesel.

[Raspy]

Using a spreadsheet to compare diesel to gas powered vehicles really misses the point.  It's true that diesels cost more to buy and service.  And the new ones have much more complicated emissions equipment, but the appeal is the lower cost to drive on trips and, this is the big one, they tow much better.

 

I can't imagine justifying a diesel with a projected breakeven of 8 years out.  Way too many variables.

 

I'm very glad I paid the extra for my Ram diesel, but it mainly shows up in towing ability and cost savings on fuel while on trips. The spreadsheet says nothing about the ability of the vehicle and the ease and pleasure of using it while towing.  You might also have some other needs for a truck that could play into the decision.

 

The point is, you either get what a diesel is, or you don't and it doesn't matter.  If you've never had the pleasure of towing with one, it's hard to factor in the added initial cost as an argument for buying one.

 

Then, you should also look at the reliability of some models.  This is very important and not mentioned in your analysis.  Mainly with diesels, but gas engines too.   And it might lead to looking at pickup brands other than Ford.

[Overland]

Well, whenever anyone tells me that I just don't 'get' something, what I usually 'get' is that they're upset that I'm not making the same choice that they did.  If I wanted the best towing machine, I'd get a ¾ or 1 ton diesel pickup.  If I wanted the best reliability, I'd get a Toyota.  If I wanted the best every day driver, then I'd buy a new BMW.  If I wanted the best off road vehicle, I'd have a Jeep.  Etc.  It's all about what compromise among those things and others works best for you.  Gas mileage and range aren't the only factors, they're just the two that I'm talking about above.  And if you want an objective look at value from that standpoint, you've got to use math.

 

When just looking at pickups, we made our choice of Ford for numerous reasons well over a year ago.  There are pros and cons for all the makes, but overall we preferred the Fords.

[Raspy]

I would never suggest that you have to "get" something the way I might, and I'm not upset.  Not claiming I have some inside information.  Just saying that the towing experience with a diesel is something you may not be able to decide on paper.  This is because of the driving character.  That character is noticed through driving them while towing.  Many don't have experience with them and therefore don't appreciate the advantages they offer.   So if it's just monetary savings on paper, that value is lost and diesels look like a bad investment.  I agree with your thoughts on the compromises and the various models to suit different uses.  Does your spreadsheet show those compromises?

 

It may not pan out to wait 8 years for the breakeven on cost.  Who knows what fuel will cost, the reliability of current models, etc.  It's been the case that a number of engine models have had serious problems over the last eight years, for instance.  So those calcs, eight years ago, could have led to disappointment.  That is where brand loyalty can adversely affect the decision, and again, it may not show up on paper.  Nobody knows how that will play out in the future.

 

My personal preference is to spend more up front and pay less as I go.  Just my own method. Your mileage may vary.

[Laps]

The point is, you either get what a diesel is, or you don’t and it doesn’t matter. If you’ve never had the pleasure of towing with one, it’s hard to factor in the added initial cost as an argument for buying one. Then, you should also look at the reliability of some models. This is very important and not mentioned in your analysis. Mainly with diesels, but gas engines too. And it might lead to looking at pickup brands other than Ford.

 

Exactly!

[Overland]

Guys, I agree with everything you've said.  Just go back a few posts and see that what started this discussion was the lousy MPGs that my original choice for a tow vehicle was seeing out in the real world, and hence why I wanted to know if from a monetary standpoint the MPGs really mattered.  From that view, it turns out that it doesn't - at least not relative to the alternatives I had picked, diesel or otherwise.  That's not to say that a diesel might not be better for other reasons.  We're on the same page as far as the 'feel' goes.

[John E Davies]

If you are not aware of this factor, here you go.

 

The Ford and GM diesels, being V8s, are really tightly packaged and it is hard to get at a lot of the components. It is common shop practice to remove the cab from the chassis to do major repairs to areas that are buried deep.

 

 

The Cummins is a straight six, and it is really easy to get to _everything_, in situ. No need to remove the cab.

 

If you plan to sell the truck when the warranty runs out, this is a non-issue. If you plan to keep it beyond the warranty, then you will be facing major expenses with the V8s vs the I6, if you lose a turbo, for example. Even in warranty, you may be stranded for a lot longer if your Super Duty goes down, compared to your Ram. That can mess up a vacation...

 

They all have _horrible_ long term costs associated with the DPF and other emissions stuff. You can delete them but it is very much illegal, and you will get your trailer sooty.

 

Having owned a 2006 Ram 5.9 Cummins for three years, I would never consider a later model diesel of any brand without the intent of deleting the emissions after the warranty is gone.

 

BTW the Cruiser uses 87 Octane. Except for the TRD Land Speed Cruiser, which I think must run on methanol since it has 2000 bhp and does 230 mph.... LOL. Land Cruisers are not the greatest tow vehicles, you pick one for what it will do off pavement, not how it tows three tons.

 

I thought you were pretty heavily focused on that aspect, what changed your mind? The diesel HD trucks all ride pretty darned rough compared to the half tons.... and none are worth a hoot on potholed forest roads without an expensive aftermarket suspension system, like a Carli.

 

Take a look at and drive a Power Wagon, while you are out and around. Neat trucks, if there are no graphics.

 

Good luck on your search.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[Raspy]

Fortunately, or unfortunately for me, I need a strong truck for other reasons.  I have a number of other work trailers and I travel through the Sierra all the time.  So having one to tow my Ollie is a bonus.  I also need clearance and 4WD because I like to get way out into the desert when I can.

 

I'm on my third Cummins and each one has been way better than the last.  A '93, then a 2004 and now a 2014.   I have put nearly 500,000 miles on the three of them.

 

I'm a huge fan of the simple Cummins design, it's proven reliability and the way it sounds while working.  The other weaknesses in the truck kept me moving towards later models, but I had to skip the 2009 through 2012 to avoid their problems.  The 2014, in spite of being much more complicated and possibly expensive to maintain, is worth it, so far.  Unfortunately, deleting it is not a viable option with the Aisin tranny.  Yet.

 

The third gen Rams (2003 to 2008) are good trucks too, but never were fully ironed out.  So you have to figure in some upgrades to make them, and keep them great.  Like so many things, its a trade off.   If I was going to just go down to Mexico and kick around for a couple of years, I'd get a 1997 or 1998 12 valve with a stick and call it a day.  Absolute reliability and a much better body than a first gen.

 

For use around here a new 2500 with coil rear springs and a G56 stick seems good.  Or an Ecodiesel 1500 if the EPA allows them to be sold again.  I Know, I know, it's not a Cummins.

 

Reed, with his Bluetec Mercedes made a very good choice too.

 

As Overland mentioned,  a pickup is very good for a TV with all of it's space.  Mine seems just about full whenever we go.  Maybe stuff we really don't have to have, but nice to have.  Lots of firewood, folding chairs, and outside camp stove, bikes, generator, etc.  I'm of the ilk these days that trips should be comfortable and fun, with lots of toys.

[Overland]

John, my wife and I were just commenting on how packed the engine compartment in the F250 is. We took one home from the dealer to see how well it works around town. Surprisingly, she doesn't mind the size. She hated the old version but the hood on the new one is shaped better and the sight lines are much improved. In town, though, it drives much bigger than out in the suburbs where the dealerships are. It will fit in the driveway, but that's about the best I can say on that front. Power is good and the engine is fairly quiet. The interior is outstanding.

 

We're still concentrating on off road ability. I think this is just a short detour for us to make sure we've made the right decision. It's been good to second guess ourselves for a bit but the more we look into other vehicles the more we think that the Raptor is right for us. I'll drive the 250 for a bit tomorrow but unless I come to some dramatic realization about it, it's looking like we'll place our order for the '18 Raptor on Monday.

 

I did drive a Land Cruiser, by the way. I can see it's appeal. It's a good all rounder, though in the end, the price is too much for me. It's $15k more than the Raptor, which is already a stretch in my mind. Maybe if there was a better used market here I'd give it more of a thought but there really isn't anything nearby.

[Raspy]

Overland,

 

If I understand you correctly, you'll be getting an F150 Raptor.  Is that right?  Nice trucks.  What engine will you choose?

 

From what I've read the 2.7 is very capable and fun to drive while getting great mileage, unloaded.  The 3.5 looks better on paper for towing, maybe, but uses more fuel and is slower.  The V8 naturally aspirated is simpler and cheaper, I think, with only a small mileage penalty.  I Know the turboed engines will run on regular, but the performance will be down.  The V8 might actually do better in real world towing of an Ollie on regular fuel.  And it might be more reliable in the long run.  The 5.4 was the one that was blowing out spark plugs if I remember correctly.  I'm sure that is fixed by now.  Thoughts?

 

Oh yeah, can you order the new 10 speed yet?  Can't imagine why a truck needs a 10 speed auto, but maybe.

[Overland]

The Raptor only comes with a high output version of the 3.5 turbo and I think all the ecoboost F150s have the the 10 speed now. The drawbacks to the Raptor are fuel consumption and the soft springs that reduce the tow rating, though I can always swap springs fairly inexpensively if I need. Also it only comes with a 5.5' bed, though that's an advantage to me. They make an even shorter super cab version with the same short bed that would be really maneuverable but you lose towing capacity an of course interior storage. The back of the super cab is a cavern, with a flat floor that's really appealing to us.

[Raspy]

Overland,

 

Let us know if you order a new Raptor.  That looks like a very nice truck and I guess they upgraded the tuning on the 3.5.  I read some about the ten speed and it sounds very nice too.  So many gears are not always needed, so it can skip gears under light throttle as needed.  I was thinking you could add airbags to the rear leafs and then just pump them up when you tow.

 

You mentioned you like the Raptor because of it's off road abilities.  I'm finding that Ollies are surprisingly good off road.  They are narrow enough, high enough with no hanging down plumbing and have the tandem axles. I've now dragged mine over some serious trails with no problems.  It's been fun to carefully approach severe dips and rough areas, get out and see how it's doing and go on.  Being narrow is also a huge advantage.

 

We started up a narrow dirt road with no place to turn around in the Eastern Sierra.  Went a for a couple miles easing our way along between trees and over big ruts.  Then we went to Grant Lake off of June Lake Loop and took a short cut down a steep, almost Jeep trail.   Cool.  If my Ram will get there, the trailer will get there.

[Try2Relax]

John, next time you get out to see how it's doing, take some pictures, I for one would love to see what your doing with it and I'm sure most others would too.

[Raspy]

Randy,

 

Sounds good.  We'll be going to Death Valley and the Saline Valley Hot Springs later this summer.  It's a lot of miles off the highway and takes about three hours from the last paved road to get there.  It's famous for thundershowers wiping out the road.  I've been there myself when I couldn't even find the road after a storm or had to drive way out into the desert to get around a new alluvial fan or washout.  Fun place to visit.  The burros and coyotes wander around through camp.  In the quiet night, sitting in one of the pools, the bats will dip down and get a drink as they swoop silently by.  It's an oasis with plenty of hot water and beautiful hand built pools. Mysterious in its intense silence.

 

Just when you think it's totally peaceful, some fighter planes will come by practicing.  They like to show off, away from the city.  Put a wing down and circle the hot springs a hundred feet of the ground.  You can wave at the pilots!

 

We went there a couple of years ago and came in from the east with our toy hauler. We were very careful on the rough roads and took our time.  But the trailer suffered anyway.  I realized it wasn't worthy and sold it shortly after that trip as my search for an Ollie intensified.

 

This year there has been so much snow in the Sierra mountains that we haven't been able to do very much.  We did have a very nice trip to Yosemite, but 120 is closed from the east and one of the roads from the west was closed too, so it took along time to get there.   Their internet had been down for ten days and intermittent flooding made the whole place unpredictable. Best time to go!  The falls were spectacular!  Reed and Karen Lukens were there too and we had a very nice time.  Reed knows Yosemite very well and was sure we could get a spot.  He was right.

 

We'll be in Bandon Oregon in July with the Cassita group, but I don't expect any off roading.  My best times are in the desert and we'll get there later in the year.  Most people won't go to the desert in summer, but that's the monsoon season with powerful rain, and it's not crowded.  Excellent.

[Geoff]

I don't have my Oliver yet (Legacy Elite II picking up in Nov 17) but initially plan on towing with my 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit.  It is has the 3 liter diesel (240 hp/420 lb ft torque/7400 lb tow capacity)  and the towing package (added cooling, higher alternator capacity, load leveling shocks, trailer sway control).  I am going to have the Anderson anti-sway hitch installed...anyone have any experience towing the a JGC that they could share?  Thanks in advance

[donthompson]

Geoff,

 

I tow with a Touareg TDI. Also a 3.0-liter V-6 diesel. 240 hp/406 ft-lbs torque. 7700 lbs. towing capacity--616 lbs. max. tongue weight. Curb weight of the Touareg is just under 5,000 lbs. I tow with the standard bulldog hitch. I've towed many miles over varied terrain including mountain passes. I've been very happy with my choice of a tow vehicle and have enjoyed taking the Touareg on jeep trails at Canyonlands National Park. You should be fine with your JGC. Do some more reading about the Andersen Weight Distribution hitch-you'll find lots of info on this forum. Lots of pros and cons. VW won't permit the use of a weight distribution hitch with the Touareg, so I didn't have to make a choice. I've had no sway issues and I don't think I would choose the Andersen hitch if I could use it and had the ability to choose to do so.

 

Don

[Geoff]

Don,

 

Thanks so much for the information, great stuff.  I will report back on how it goes but sounds like I should be OK, especially with a well mannered trailer behind me.  I will also take your advice and read up on the pros & cons of the Anderson hitch.

 

Best. Geoff

 

 

[ScubaRx]

Towing: 2014 Elite II, 5320 lbs factory weight at pick up (2 x 30lb empty propane tanks, no water, no cargo.) Weighed 01/27/2017 at Eloy, AZ on the Pilot Truck Stop Certified Cat Scale. Two adults, 120 lb of dogs, Full tank of gas, full fresh water tank, some in black and gray tank, full propane tank and 1/2 full propane tank, Yamaha 3000 watt generator on tongue. Trailer alone weighed 7100 lb. about 650 lb tongue weight. Because of oversize axles my trailer has a GVWR of 10,400 lbs.

 

Current Tow Vehicle: 2014 GMC Sierra 1500 SLT w/6.2L (420 HP/460 ft lb torque) and NHT Max Tow package, Trailer Tow capacity 11,800 lbs (based on SAE J2807). Hitch platform rated at 1200 lb.

 

We have recently changed our tow vehicle to a 2017 Silverado High Country 2500HD w/the 6.6L Duramax Turbo-Diesel (445 HP/910 ft lb torque.) The Trailer Towing capacity is 13,000 lbs with a Gross Combination Weight Rating of 25,300 lbs (based on SAE J2807.)