2015 Oliver Elite II 12 VDC “NEGATIVE” Connection Issue

[Maverick]

2015 Oliver Elite II 12 VDC “NEGATIVE” Connection Issue

 

After replacing the battery tray and the stiff wiring going to the batteries in our 2015 Oliver Elite II trailer; I checked out the trailer electrical system.  I discover that the trailers on board battery negative was never bonded to the negative coming from the tow vehicle.

 

Because the two negatives were never connected together it created two problems.  First the tow vehicle would never charge the trailers on board batteries.  Second the trailer brakes negative lead was connected to the trailers on board battery negative buss bar.  Second the trailer brakes were obtaining the negative connection only through the trailer ball when connected to the tow vehicle.

 

The tow vehicle’s negative lead was only connected to the exterior lights on the trailer (marker lights, turn signals and back up lights).

 

Up until the past two months our trips have been a max of a day or two travels.  During July and August we travel throughout the west, after the first couple of weeks I started logging the start of the days battery voltage and then logging the end of the travel days battery voltage and all of the time it was about ½ a volt lower at the end of the day (we don’t have solar); for all of the other travel trailers we have owned the tow vehicle would keep the trailers on board batteries charged.

 

I have bonded the two negative systems together, which has corrected both issues.

 

I located several pictures of wiring diagrams that Robert Partee – Oliver TT Sales Manager at the time we purchased our trailer gave us.  The pictures were so bad you could not read anything.  After blowing up the pictures, there was one of the tow vehicle cable and how it routed throughout the trailer and it did not show any connection between the two 12 VDC negative systems.  Also it did show that the brakes negative lead was connected to the trailers on board battery negative buss bar; as I described above.  I have discussed this issue with Richie Carroll at Oliver Travel Trailers.

 

There is a simple test you can perform to see if your trailers tow vehicle 12 VDC negative lead is connected to the trailers on board battery negative buss.  Using a multiple meter at the tongue of your trailer and the cable that connects to your tow vehicle; connect one lead from the multiple meter to a metal point on the trailer and the other multiple meter lead on the ground terminal of the trailer cable.  If the two systems are connected together you will read a shorted connection; if not your meter will show an open connection.  If you obtain an open connection, I suggest you correct the issue.

 

 

 

 

[KarenLukens]

Did you just solder on a ground wire to the 7 pin? My batteries haven't charged since day one...

[Raspy]

Maverick,

 

Thanks for you note on this.

 

If I understand you correctly, the the trailer brake positive lead goes to the brakes, but the negative brake lead goes to the negative bus bar, which is not bonded to the trailer frame or the negative lead from the tow vehicle.  So, the brake circuit must complete it's circuit through the trailer ball.  Where did Oliver connect the negative lead from the seven pin plug?

 

When you bonded the two systems together, do you mean the trailer frame, the trailer negative buss and the vehicle negative conductor?

 

I have hull #92 and might be wired the same as yours, but I haven't investigated that yet.  My battery wiring is only number 6 household wiring and seems inadequate to me.  Plus the wires were getting pinched behind the batteries.

[Maverick]

Did you just solder on a ground wire to the 7 pin? My batteries haven’t charged since day one…

Reed:

 

The seven wire cable that attaches to the tow vehicle is located under the front dinette seat; which is easy accessible.  At that point I cut out all of Oliver’s connectors and installed an additional 10 gage white wire and quality electrical connectors.  The 10 gage white wire that I installed was run to the rear dinette seat area.  If you open up the access cover under the seat, just behind the electrical panel is a ¼ - 20 bolt where Oliver grounded to the frame the on board battery negative.  Oliver used a 6 gage yellow wire from their battery negative buss bar.  Their 6 gage yellow wire is about 14 inches long.  I just attached my 10 gage white wire to the same ¼ - 20 stud; this way both the on board battery negative and the tow vehicle negative are bonded together at the same point.

 

As I said in my original post, go to the trailer plug with a multiple meter; one lead on the trailer frame and the other multiple meter lead on the plug that goes to the tow vehicle.  At that point if everything is wired correctly you should have a short; which means everything is correct.  But is you have an open circuit that means the two negatives are not bonded or connected together.

 

I have attached a sketch of the end of the trailer plug for reference.

[Maverick]

Maverick, Thanks for you note on this. If I understand you correctly, the the trailer brake positive lead goes to the brakes, but the negative brake lead goes to the negative bus bar, which is not bonded to the trailer frame or the negative lead from the tow vehicle. So, the brake circuit must complete it’s circuit through the trailer ball. Where did Oliver connect the negative lead from the seven pin plug? When you bonded the two systems together, do you mean the trailer frame, the trailer negative buss and the vehicle negative conductor? I have hull #92 and might be wired the same as yours, but I haven’t investigated that yet. My battery wiring is only number 6 household wiring and seems inadequate to me. Plus the wires were getting pinched behind the batteries.

 

Raspy:

 

The trailer brakes POSITIVE wire (blue wire in the cable that plugs into your tow vehicle) goes to the trailer brakes.  However the trailer brakes NEGATIVE wire goes to the on board battery NEGATIVE buss bar; therefore trailer brakes is only making contact with the tow vehicle battery negative through the trailer ball.

 

Oliver did connect their on board battery negative buss bar to the trailer frame.

 

Read my previous reply to Reed and hopefully that clears up some of your comments.

 

The original wiring that Oliver used to connect my batteries was 6 gage very stiff wires.   While replacing a defective battery rack, I replaced the 6 gage wire with some very flexible 6 gage that I purchased from West Marine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mainiac]

Wonder if lead to the Ford trailer disconnected issue?

[Raspy]

Horace,

 

I just checked mine an there is no continuity between the frame and the plug negative. The buss bar has no negative from the plug pigtail.  I do have a white ground wire connected to the pigtail, under the forward dinette seat,  and heading aft, but I can't see where it goes.  Not to the negative buss.  When hooked up to the TV the trailer voltage does not change.

 

So, I'll continue the negative TV wire to the buss and get better brake continuity and trailer battery charging.

 

I think my TV plug is always hot, so I'll have to be careful not to run the TV batteries down while parked.

 

I'm also planning to install an inverter, so all the #6 household wire has to go.  Your choice of marine wire is a good one for standard amp draw.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

[ScubaRx]

Wonder if lead to the Ford trailer disconnected issue?

 

All the early trailers (say, below hull #100) were wired with the tow vehicle ground not bonded to the trailer.  Ours had that problem.  The white wire (ground) from the vehicle (thru the umbilical) must be connected to the buss bar in order for the brakes to work properly.  They repaired them as they came back into the factory for any work, but most likely there are some still out there that have never been addressed.  So, if your trailer is wired this way, it has everything to do with the trailer disconnect (brake) issues.  Putting a six inch jumper from the white wire to the buss bar will solve that.  As was stated previously, the only ground for the trailer from the vehicle was thru the ball mount and this was the case in those early builds. That worked pretty well when everything was brand new.  As the ball was worn down, the connection became intermittent (thus the connect errors.)

[Maverick]

Canoe12 wrote:

Wonder if lead to the Ford trailer disconnected issue?

All the early trailers (say, below hull #100) were wired with the tow vehicle ground not bonded to the trailer. Ours had that problem. The white wire (ground) from the vehicle (thru the umbilical) must be connected to the buss bar in order for the brakes to work properly. They repaired them as they came back into the factory for any work, but most likely there are some still out there that have never been addressed. So, if your trailer is wired this way, it has everything to do with the trailer disconnect (brake) issues. Putting a six inch jumper from the white wire to the buss bar will solve that. As was stated previously, the only ground for the trailer from the vehicle was thru the ball mount and this was the case in those early builds. That worked pretty well when everything was brand new. As the ball was worn down, the connection became intermittent (thus the connect errors.)

 

Steve:

 

I disagree with you about your statement that Oliver repairs the grounding issue when these trailers come back to the factory.  We delivered our trailer to Jason Essary at the Oliver factory on May 16, 2017 at 0700 and it was not returned to us until Thursday May 18, 2017 after 1800.  During this time Oliver installed the EZ Flex system and repacked the wheel bearings, plus replaced the bike rack; if they knew about this grounding issue it should have been corrected at that time!

 

Jason and his staff had time they could have corrected the grounding issue at that time.  This morning conversation with Richie Carroll, he said nothing about Oliver was aware of this problem before I made him aware of it last week.

 

Our trailer took about five feet of cable to correct the ground issue like it should have been done when the trailer was constructed.  Oliver Travel Trailers’ failure to properly connect the tow vehicles ground wire (battery negative) to the trailer is a MAJOR SAFETY issue with the trailer braking ability and I suggest everyone check their trailer to see if they have the problem, if so it needs correction immediately.

 

 

[dedendzer]

I had the same issue with my 2015 Oliver Elite II.  The tow vehicle was not charging the battery.  We were on a month trip out west when we discovered this.  I got a plug diagram and checked the tow vehicle battery charge and was OK.  I checked the ground lead at the plug and it had continuity to the truck frame.  Between the battery charge and ground was 12 volts, proving that the tow vehicle was not the problem.

 

I then checked the mating connections on the Oliver plug.  I discovered that the ground connection at the plug was not grounded to the trailer frame using the multimeter test.  I disassembled the plug and checked all the connections.  All was OK.  I then traced the ground wire from the plug all the way back to the grounding bar beneath the rear dinette seat and found it not connected.  It just continued to the rear of the trailer.

 

After the trip, we took the trailer to Oliver for some other issues and to correct the charging problem.   They told me the problem was in the tow vehicle and asked me to bring it in so they could check it.  They did the same checks that I did and agreed with me that the tow vehicle was OK.  I went inside with the technician and asked him to show me why he thinks the trailer is OK.  He showed me that he had 12 volts between the battery lead and the trailer frame.  That's because he's measuring the voltage across the battery terminals.  I asked him to check the voltage between the battery lead and the ground connection in the plug and it read zero.  Then we checked continuity between the plug grounding lead and the frame and it showed none.

 

The ground lead coming from the plug through the trailer was NOT connected to the grounding bar.  The technician said that during manufacture, it is cut in two and both leads are supposed to be on the grounding bar terminal.  He made the fix and we always have a charged up battery when we get to our destination.

 

Oliver makes a high quality product and something as simple as this should have been caught before it left the factory.  A little bit of quality control testing of all circuits would have caught this simple mistake.

[Mainiac]

So, is this issue only on those units 100 and below? Or should everyone check each and every unit? Confused about Oliver cutting a wire and only bonding one end of it. What did they do with the other end? Can it just be connected?

[rideandfly]

Thanks for the thread,

 

Just checked continuity between trailer frame and trailer 7 pin plug. Our trailer has continuity between the plug's ground pin and trailer frame. Also checked trailer batteries disconnected from TV at 12.75V and connected to TV with engine running at 13.26V.

 

The original owner took our Ollie back to Oliver to have some warranty issues corrected before we purchased it, may have been corrected then. I replaced the PD 4045 converter section about a month ago due to trailer battery over charging while connected to shore power, but did not modify wiring.

 

 

[skalywag]

I also just checked continuity between trailer frame and the ground on the 7 pin plug and it is grounded. This is a recent build and I have found very few issues so far. This is a good check for all owners to perform.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

[ScubaRx]

...Steve: I disagree with you about your statement that Oliver repairs the grounding issue when these trailers come back to the factory...

 

Horace, you are correct in that not all the trailers were being corrected in a timely manner. I should have stated "They were supposed to be repairing them as they came back into the factory for any work..." I agree that this was/is a problem because ours had been back to the factory at least a half dozen times before it was fixed. I drove 4500 miles on a trip listening to our truck almost constantly beep a warning of a brake disconnect. A half dozen calls to the factory during that trip yielded us no relief. When I took it in, Justin immediately knew what the problem was. It took all of 5 minutes to fix it. Obviously not everybody knows to look for that particular issue.

 

I spoke with Richie Carroll this morning and he will be addressing this situation with management today. A solution will be worked out quickly.

 

 

[Maverick]

Steve:

 

Thank you for getting involved with this grounding issue on the Oliver Travel Trailers.  This is a major safety issue that could result in a life effecting condition.  When Oliver Travel Trailers first learned of this problem, they should have contacted ALL trailer owners about the problem and a solution.

 

I understand that most of the time the trailer breaks would work to some extent because of being connected to the tow vehicle, obtaining a ground through the trailer ball.  If you are only obtaining a ground through the trailer ball connection, which is high resistance there is a reduced voltage being delivered to the trailer breaks.

 

Hopefully Oliver Travel Trailer Management will contact all owners of trailers affected by this grounding problem very quickly; with directions on how to correct this problem.  Not all trailer owners are electrical engineers or have the ability to correct this grounding problem.

 

I like our Elite II trailer and I believe that Oliver Travel Trailers provides good customer service; but a safety issue needs attention ASAP.

[Raspy]

Maverick,

 

I just fixed mine (Hull #92).

 

The brakes had a negative wire to the bus bar but no wire from buss to the ground lug on the frame and no wire from the umbilical negative to the buss or the ground lug.  Nothing connected to the frame ground lug at all.  The umbilical negative had three small wires which I suspect were light negatives, but they were not brakes.  Not sure as they disappeared in the maze.

 

So, I ran a #10 from the umbilical negative to the buss bar and two #10s from the buss to the ground lug.  I also kept the small (light?) negatives connected to the umbilical.

 

Before this I had no continuity from the TV negative to the frame and no charging current to the batteries while plugged into the TV.  Now it is charging.

 

Thanks for the heads up!  I've been working on other items and did not notice the charging problem.   I also had no trouble with the brakes.

 

John

[KarenLukens]

Hull #200 had the problem but...

 

I had continuity and 14vdc between the positive terminal and the trailer tongue, but the trailer wouldn't charge from the car. John and I are at a Rally together and after fixing his 2015, hull #92, he wanted to look at my 2017 Elite II. There are substantial differences and when we tried to trace the white ground wire back from the 7 pin, it just disappears into the vanity from outside and doesn't come out into the front right side dinette...

 

So I pulled out the schematic and take a look...

 

 

The white takes off from behind the vanity and meanders all around and then connects to the attic ground bar according to the schematic, so there is no direct ground to the frame that we could see. When we tested the ground up at the 7 pin we were getting less than 9vdc, so it was obvious that we didn't have a good ground, which is more then likely the cause of the problems that you Ford guys are experiencing. John had brought some 10ga wire with him, so we opened up the 7 pin connector, pushed the weather seal inside to make enough room to run a temporary ground to the frame directly from the white terminal and everything works now. I removed the Camco LED foreign car adaptor and tested it without and it works. We then brought John's truck over and hooked it up to my trailer because it has the voltage meter on the dash. Low and behold, the trailer now charges from the tv without the "Tow Ready" connector needed anymore, the lights all work and everything is working the way it's supposed to. Now all that I need to do is find out what happens to the white wire behind the vanity and then hard wire it directly to the frame or the ground bar beneath the rear Dinette seat.

 

So the answer for all trailer owners, not just trailers below 100, is yes, there is a ground problem that can easily be fixed. I'm sure that this is the main issue with the Ford Truck problems along with the trailer not charging for everyone. So I suggest, those of you with the electrical knowledge, check out your ground wire and make sure that it goes directly to ground out of the 7 pin connector on every trailer made to date!

 

I hooked up to the Mercedes and all is well now, I don't have a voltage gauge, so when I leave here in a couple of days, I will make sure that the trailer is charging without the tow ready. I'm thinking that it will not be needed anymore but an actual drive test will be the tell all. Right now the lights and everything work like they are supposed to.

 

Here's a pic of my simple temporary fix -

 

 

We simply ran from the white terminal inside the 7 pin back to the frame, then wrapped it in electrical tape for now until I call Richie and find out where the white wire comes into the trailer.

 

Reed

 

 

 

 

[DavePhelps]

Reed, you said: "When we tested the ground up at the 7 pin we were getting less than 9vdc, so it was obvious that we didn’t have a good ground,"

 

By this do you mean that you connected the 12V out from the TV socket to the ground plug on the trailer and got 9vdc?? I did this and got 12.8vdc.

 

Also checked continuity between the ground on the trailer plug and the trailer frame, and I had continuity. So maybe I lucked out. Hull 107, completed 11/15.

 

Dave

[KarenLukens]

Reed, you said: “When we tested the ground up at the 7 pin we were getting less than 9vdc, so it was obvious that we didn’t have a good ground,” By this do you mean that you connected the 12V out from the TV socket to the ground plug on the trailer and got 9vdc?? I did this and got 12.8vdc. Also checked continuity between the ground on the trailer plug and the trailer frame, and I had continuity. So maybe I lucked out. Hull 107, completed 11/15. Dave

No, we connected from the black 12vdc in to the white ground, both on the 7 pin trailer connector, then to the others and got varying results, not a constant 13.2 which is what the battery voltage was reading on the SeeLevel monitor. All were 12.4 down to 8.6vdc on the back up lights, which are the yellow wire on the center pin. From the black positive to the frame was 13.2, where it was supposed to be, where to the white ground wire, it was only 9vdc instead of 13.2vdc. We did lots of testing and as soon as we added the solid ground, everything came up and the car started charging the trailer for the first time since we bought the trailer in February.

 

 

[Raspy]

Reed, you said: “When we tested the ground up at the 7 pin we were getting less than 9vdc, so it was obvious that we didn’t have a good ground,” By this do you mean that you connected the 12V out from the TV socket to the ground plug on the trailer and got 9vdc?? I did this and got 12.8vdc. Also checked continuity between the ground on the trailer plug and the trailer frame, and I had continuity. So maybe I lucked out. Hull 107, completed 11/15. Dave

 

Dave,

 

This John (Raspy),

 

Disconnect from shore power and solar.  Rest the batteries and note the voltage on your internal monitor.  Plug the trailer into the TV and start it up.  Watch the voltage and see if it changes over the next 15 minutes or so.  You should see it climb slowly to about 14 volts and this will confirm that the TV is charging the trailer.  If the voltage doesn't change, you are not charging.

 

If not charging, the reason seen so far is, no negative connection to the batteries from the TV.  No plus and minus to the batteries.  Mine had not 12 volt negative to the frame or to the negative buss bar.  This meant the trailer ball to receiver was the ground path and completed the circuit for the brakes, but the batteries had no + and - to the batteries from the TV.  The trailer batteries could not charge from the TV and the brakes were only connected through the tow ball to receiver!

[DavePhelps]

As soon as I get my charge controller back from Blue Sky, I'll check that out. Had a loose connection on the mother board somewhere that they are fixing. This whole thing is really pretty hard to believe, no ground from the TV to trailer....!!

 

I would think Oliver should know who has the affected trailers and will be contacting them about the issue. But if Reed's trailer is so affected, I guess that could be everybody.

 

Dave

[Raspy]

Dave,

 

It seems to me that Oliver only wanted to run the trailer lights from the TV.  They somehow spaced out running the brakes, or they decided to rely on the tow ball to receiver for a brake connection that might be reliable and able to carry the necessary current.  That is not acceptable, although it did work for me.   I'm now wondering if this is why my brakes were so weak in the beginning.  I'm also wondering if the folks with the Anderson Hitch have brake problems.  Since we are seeing this issue on all ages of trailers, it must be a design decision.  The only reason I can think of to deliberately leave the TV electrically disconnected from the trailer is to ensure the trailer battery doesn't pull down the TV battery and leave someone stranded.

 

Please get back to us on your findings when you can.  All you have to do is plug in and watch the volt meter for a few minutes.

 

BTW, how is it going with the water tank mod?  Oliver is now installing a setup nearly identical to what I came up with.  Have they expressed a willingness to help you with that?

 

 

[KarenLukens]

That's what I am waiting to find out Wednesday when we take off. In the Casita we ran the Tekonsha P3 at about 4 and we are at 6.8 for the Oliver and had to change the controller settings to make it work. I will be taping the brakes and will post the results.

 

One of these days Dave, either drive this way or we will drive your way and meet somewhere to fix that tank. Going in from the side will work also with the heater in the way of the top fix. With the 1" spin weld located on the side, the dip tube with a 90° on it will still slide in and hit the bottom, then we can slide the 1" threaded to 1/2" pex or copper bushing over and thread it in to the tank after positioning the dip tube to make the seal. It will work on the existing 3/4 also as long as there is a way to get to that fitting :)

 

Reed

[DavePhelps]

John and Reed,

 

Yes I am really wondering if this has been the cause of my brake issues as well. I should have completed my old post on the issue but haven't had time to get into it. I finally did replace my brakes with some 7000 lb rated ones from Dexter. It's what they recommended. Beefier pads and stronger magnets. They still will not lock up during brake controller setup but I'm not sure anymore if this is necessary. Last trip in Hells Canyon area, they worked fine down some very steep, windy descents. But I wonder if the old brakes would have been OK if they only would have had a proper ground.

 

As far as the water tank retrofit. I asked Jason about this in an email. He responded that they did have a fix and could I swing by the factory. Well, I live in Oregon! I asked if they have a kit put together so I could do it myself but never have heard back. That was over a week ago. Maybe I need to bring it up with Richie. Not sure if these issues are Jason's worries any more. I surely would like to get it fixed. Still not sure why a curved suction tube could not be inserted into the existing outflow fitting. Maybe the fitting is too small? Anyway, maybe we could meet in the middle sometime Reed and get the job done. There needs to be a Western rally/modification party! Thanks for all the advice and sharing of experience.

 

Dave

[KarenLukens]

Still not sure why a curved suction tube could not be inserted into the existing outflow fitting. Maybe the fitting is too small? Anyway, maybe we could meet in the middle sometime Reed and get the job done. There needs to be a Western rally/modification party! Thanks for all the advice and sharing of experience. Dave

 

It will fit as long as you can get to it, it should take around 30 minutes after you have the parts. To me, your original idea still looks like the best fix for your trailer. You can sweep some copper into a long 90°, slip it through the hole, then thread the connector over the top. Have you been to any of the Rally's there yet? There was an Elite at the Ft. Stevens Rally when we were there in 2015, then we met one of you guys down at Carpenteria, but didn't have a chance to get together after meeting. He walked over to our Casita and said hello :)

 

So who was in Carpinteria in their Elite in 2015 that we met?