LiFeBlue Battery Representative

[LiFeBlueBattery]

Hello to all Oliver Travel Trailer owners.

I am here as the company representative to answer any of your questions specifically related to LiFeBlue Li-ion Battery. LiFeBlue supplies Oliver TT with LiFePO4 chemistry batteries to power your loads. All of our batteries have Smart Connect Bluetooth communications built in.

Having 20 years of experience designing and installing thousands of RV, Marine, off grid and industrial battery based power systems, I am also wiling to share my broad knowledge with this group if it is requested. My wife and I have a good understanding of the full time RV lifestyle having spent a few years on the road. 

Happy Trails to you all!
Larry Crutcher, GM

Edited August 18, 2020 by LiFeBlueBattery

[mossemi]

Welcome to the forum.  Look forward to your expertise and guidance.

Mossey

[Jairon]

Welcome to the forum. I have a few questions for you with regard to warranty claims and exclusions:

The warranty specifically mentions that should a repair not be feasible, a replacement battery will only be provided at a 30% discount from MSRP. Shipping to determine cause of failure and shipping back is also not covered. LifeBlue would essentially be selling us a new battery at cost. Is this the same warranty that will be offered to Oliver owners? As someone who is currently slated to have LifeBlue batteries in their new Oliver, why should we choose LifeBlue over Battle Born or Victron?

The warranty also states that:

1. Damage caused by repetitive BMS protection cycling is considered abuse and is not covered.

How does LifeBlue define repetitive and does the Bluetooth application log BMS events to alert the user that the protection circuitry is being tripped?

2. Shipping cost to and from LiFeBlue repair facility is not covered by this warranty. If LiFeBlue is contacted within 30 days after the purchase date for a warranty claim, shipping cost to and from LiFeBlue repair facility will be covered for any address within the 48 contiguous states.

Where is your repair facility located so shipping costs can be appropriately estimated?

Edited August 18, 2020 by Jairon

[NCeagle]

1 hour ago, LiFeBlueBattery said:

Hello to all Oliver Travel Trailer owners.

I am here as the company representative to answer any of your questions specifically related to LiFeBlue Li-ion Battery. LiFeBlue supplies Oliver TT with LiFePO4 chemistry batteries to power your loads. All of our batteries have Smart Connect Bluetooth communications built in.

Having 20 years of experience designing and installing thousands of RV, Marine, off grid and industrial battery based power systems, I am also wiling to share my broad knowledge with this group if it is requested. My wife and I have a good understanding of the full time RV lifestyle having spent a few years on the road. 

Happy Trails to you all!
Larry Crutcher, GM

Hello Larry, thanks for joining the forum.  I've just purchased an Oliver Elite II with the LifeBlue Lithium Ion batteries.  I was just researching what it would take to charge the LifeBlues from my TV alternator while driving - or even while idling as I'd like to leave my "emergency" generator at home.  I see from the LifeBlue spec sheet that it takes between 14.1 and 14.6 volts for the LifeBlue's to absorb charge (recommend 120 amps for 15 minutes).  I sent an email about this to your sales team alias and got back a reply and a recommended configuration (see attached diagram).  As it stands now, in addition to a solenoid, fuse and a high amp connector, I'd have to upgrade the charge wires in my TV to 0 or 00 gauge to maintain sufficient voltage and the high amps for charging.  It's 20' to the end of my truck and probably another 10 to the house LifeBlue's.  I asked Jason (service) how they were wiring the hot lead from the TV to the LifeBlue's but haven't heard back yet.  I'm pretty sure there will need to be some upgrades to the Oliver to make this happen as well.

Any experience, recommendation or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Maybe it's just easier to carry the generator for charging the batteries when there's no other sources available?Alternator Charge Circuit copy.pdf

[Dean]

A Battle Born to LifeBlue technology comparison is apples to oranges.

The basic Battle Born 100 AH battery measures 12.75 X 6.875 X 9 and weighs #31. 

A Life Blue 200 AH battery measures 19.0" x 6.6" x 9.5", weighs #57 with Bluetooth.

Per AH the LifeBlue battery is 23% smaller and  8% lighter.  I believe the LB battery has a heat function in the Oliver to aid charging in cold temps.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Dean

[Ray and Susan Huff]

4 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Hello Larry, thanks for joining the forum.  I've just purchased an Oliver Elite II with the LifeBlue Lithium Ion batteries.  I was just researching what it would take to charge the LifeBlues from my TV alternator while driving - or even while idling as I'd like to leave my "emergency" generator at home.  I see from the LifeBlue spec sheet that it takes between 14.1 and 14.6 volts for the LifeBlue's to absorb charge (recommend 120 amps for 15 minutes).  I sent an email about this to your sales team alias and got back a reply and a recommended configuration (see attached diagram).  As it stands now, in addition to a solenoid, fuse and a high amp connector, I'd have to upgrade the charge wires in my TV to 0 or 00 gauge to maintain sufficient voltage and the high amps for charging.  It's 20' to the end of my truck and probably another 10 to the house LifeBlue's.  I asked Jason (service) how they were wiring the hot lead from the TV to the LifeBlue's but haven't heard back yet.  I'm pretty sure there will need to be some upgrades to the Oliver to make this happen as well.

Any experience, recommendation or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Maybe it's just easier to carry the generator for charging the batteries when there's no other sources available?Alternator Charge Circuit copy.pdf

Does this mean it is likely our TV won't charge the LifeBlue batteries?  I'm asking Oliver what their take is on this.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

5 hours ago, Jairon said:

Welcome to the forum. I have a few questions for you with regard to warranty claims and exclusions:

The warranty also states that:

1. Damage caused by repetitive BMS protection cycling is considered abuse and is not covered.

How does LifeBlue define repetitive and does the Bluetooth application log BMS events to alert the user that the protection circuitry is being tripped?

Would this be in reference to leaving the batteries connected to a charge source continuously, such as a trickle charger, or connected to shore power so the trailer can have a heater on during cold weather?

@LiFeBlueBattery: Perhaps you have information explaining how a lithium battery/solar power system functions as configured in a travel trailer.  How the system works in comparison to flooded acid or AGM battery power and basic maintenance.  We are ordering our Oliver Elite II with the lithium Pro package.  This is a whole new realm for me as I'm sure it is for many other seasoned RV owners who are accustomed to older style RV power, or lack thereof.

Thank you for your support.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Susan Huff
additional info

[NCeagle]

9 hours ago, Susan Huff said:

Does this mean it is likely our TV won't charge the LifeBlue batteries?  I'm asking Oliver what their take is on this.

All TVs will "try" to charge batteries if the batteries are asking for energy (through the harness wire).  The upgrades mentioned would be required to increase the efficiency of charging (more amps to the battery to put more charge into it). 

I may worry too much, but Lithiums are not the same as Lead Acid and I don't want to be the guinea pig with a $4K set of batteries.  Stock alternators and wires provide a trickle charge (unless upgraded), so they maintain or slowly charge house batteries.  Sending a constant un-managed low amp/low voltage trickle charge to Lead-Acid batteries is not dangerous and in fact good for them, but this is not the case for Lithiums - Lithiums cannot accept overcharge.  Maybe the LifeBlues manage this internally?  Maybe charging with a stock setup can cause repetitive BMS protection cycling and void the warranty?  Even if LifeBlue sends my phone a message that says "turn off that trickle charge now!" - I wouldn't be able to without stopping my truck, opening the hood and pulling the fuse.  🙂

I'm hoping LifeBlueBattery can help us understand if there are any risks and if so how to mitigate, etc.  No way I'm enabling this TV charging on my new Lithium's without more info.

[Ray and Susan Huff]

4 hours ago, NCeagle said:

All TVs will "try" to charge batteries if the batteries are asking for energy (through the harness wire).  The upgrades mentioned would be required to increase the efficiency of charging (more amps to the battery to put more charge into it). 

I may worry too much, but Lithiums are not the same as Lead Acid and I don't want to be the guinea pig with a $4K set of batteries.  Stock alternators and wires provide a trickle charge (unless upgraded), so they maintain or slowly charge house batteries.  Sending a constant un-managed low amp/low voltage trickle charge to Lead-Acid batteries is not dangerous and in fact good for them, but this is not the case for Lithiums - Lithiums cannot accept overcharge.  Maybe the LifeBlues manage this internally?  Maybe charging with a stock setup can cause repetitive BMS protection cycling and void the warranty?  Even if LifeBlue sends my phone a message that says "turn off that trickle charge now!" - I wouldn't be able to without stopping my truck, opening the hood and pulling the fuse.  🙂

I'm hoping LifeBlueBattery can help us understand if there are any risks and if so how to mitigate, etc.  No way I'm enabling this TV charging on my new Lithium's without more info.

It sounds like you intend to disable the TV charge to the batteries.  How?

[NCeagle]

48 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

It sounds like you intend to disable the TV charge to the batteries.  How?

I'll just pull the fuse and disable that circuit.  In my case, the fuse is under the hood in the main electrical distribution center and it's a dedicated circuit, so it doesn't impact anything else to pull it out.  I have a "dummy" fuse to put in there to keep dirt out of the contacts in case I ever want to use it again.

[mossemi]

This was included in Larry’s first posting and not the second.  I am including it as another contact method.

Larry Crutcher, GM
LiFeBlue Battery
sales@lifebluebattery.com
(920) LiFePO4
(920) 543-3764

Mossey

[Ray and Susan Huff]

2 hours ago, NCeagle said:

I'll just pull the fuse and disable that circuit.  In my case, the fuse is under the hood in the main electrical distribution center and it's a dedicated circuit, so it doesn't impact anything else to pull it out.  I have a "dummy" fuse to put in there to keep dirt out of the contacts in case I ever want to use it again.

Will have to check this out . . . . Ford F-350 Super Duty Diesel.

 

22 hours ago, NCeagle said:

I asked Jason (service) how they were wiring the hot lead from the TV to the LifeBlue's but haven't heard back yet.  I'm pretty sure there will need to be some upgrades to the Oliver to make this happen as well.

Alternator Charge Circuit copy.pdf

Thanks for checking on this.  Keep us posted on your response from Jason.

[NCeagle]

42 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

Will have to check this out . . . . Ford F-350 Super Duty Diesel.

 

Thanks for checking on this.  Keep us posted on your response from Jason.

Will do.  I have an open service request with Jason and he's sent the question to the R&D team that worked on the Lithium battery option.

[Overland]

9 hours ago, NCeagle said:

No way I'm enabling this TV charging on my new Lithium's without more info.

Don't overthink it.  You'll never get a charge to your LFP batteries from your truck except when the alternator is running, and even then, not much.  The resting state of a fully charged AGM battery (your truck's battery) is 13 volts, and with a 12 awg wire 30 feet long, you'll see ~12.5 volts at the battery.  That's equivalent to a completely dead LFP battery.  So, even if your LFPs were completely wasted, they couldn't receive a charge from your truck because the voltages are at best the same.  Your truck will never detect a draw from your trailer and as a result will only engage the alternator when needed on its own.  I'd be more worried about your truck draining your batteries than the other way around.  Not that you should worry about that.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Overland

[Ray and Susan Huff]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

Don't overthink it.  You'll never get a charge to your LFP batteries from your truck except when the alternator is running, and even then, not much.  The resting state of a fully charged AGM battery (your truck's battery) is 13 volts, and with a 12 awg wire 30 feet long, you'll see ~12.5 volts at the battery.  That's equivalent to a completely dead LFP battery.  So, even if your LFPs were completely wasted, they couldn't receive a charge from your truck because the voltages are at best the same.  Your truck will never detect a draw from your trailer and as a result will only engage the alternator when needed on its own.  I'd be more worried about your truck draining your batteries than the other way around.  Not that you should worry about that.

 

 

Do I understand correctly?  It sounds like the TV battery doesn't have the capacity to charge the trailer's house batteries?

[Overland]

Correct.  Unless you rewire your tow vehicle and trailer, you'll get minimal charging even with AGMs.  Think of it as a maintenance charge.  With LFP, think of it as irrelevant.  That's nothing specific to Oliver - same with any trailer.  It's easier with RVs and vans since the house batteries are in close proximity to the alternator, connected with heavy gauge wiring.  Trying to charge a 400Ah battery bank with 30' of 12 awg wire is futile.  

This comes up all the time.  No one would connect their solar panels with 12 gauge wire, yet everyone expects their truck to be able to do it with that - and at four times the distance!

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Overland

[Ray and Susan Huff]

33 minutes ago, Overland said:

Correct.  Unless you rewire your tow vehicle and trailer, you'll get minimal charging even with AGMs.  Think of it as a maintenance charge.  With LFP, think of it as irrelevant.  That's nothing specific to Oliver - same with any trailer.  It's easier with RVs and vans since the house batteries are in close proximity to the alternator, connected with heavy gauge wiring.  Trying to charge a 400Ah battery bank with 30' of 12 awg wire is futile.  

This comes up all the time.  No one would connect their solar panels with 12 gauge wire, yet everyone expects their truck to be able to do it with that - and at four times the distance!

 

Thanks . . . . . is it harmful to leave the charging line to the trailer "hot" or do people simple disable it, as stated above, by removing the fuse?

 

[LiFeBlueBattery]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:17 AM, Jairon said:

Welcome to the forum. I have a few questions for you with regard to warranty claims and exclusions:

The warranty specifically mentions that should a repair not be feasible, a replacement battery will only be provided at a 30% discount from MSRP. Shipping to determine cause of failure and shipping back is also not covered. LifeBlue would essentially be selling us a new battery at cost. Is this the same warranty that will be offered to Oliver owners? As someone who is currently slated to have LifeBlue batteries in their new Oliver, why should we choose LifeBlue over Battle Born or Victron?

The warranty also states that:

1. Damage caused by repetitive BMS protection cycling is considered abuse and is not covered.

How does LifeBlue define repetitive and does the Bluetooth application log BMS events to alert the user that the protection circuitry is being tripped?

2. Shipping cost to and from LiFeBlue repair facility is not covered by this warranty. If LiFeBlue is contacted within 30 days after the purchase date for a warranty claim, shipping cost to and from LiFeBlue repair facility will be covered for any address within the 48 contiguous states.

Where is your repair facility located so shipping costs can be appropriately estimated?

Hello Jairon,

Our warranty is not written as a "gotcha" ploy to avoid taking care of our products. But, some people abuse products and then want the manufacturer to be responsible. I think that is rare but it still requires the language in the warranty.

An example of using the BMS for regulation and repetitive cycling would be someone applies 150 Amps to a 100AH battery (this has happened). The BMS will cycle off and on with the Over-current protection while trying to accept the high current. Through many cycles, heat could build up until the thermal shutdown begins cycling. These cascading events can cause the BMS to burn out.

Our warehouse and service center is in Yuma, AZ.

Edited August 20, 2020 by LiFeBlueBattery

[LiFeBlueBattery]

On 8/18/2020 at 12:29 PM, NCeagle said:

Hello Larry, thanks for joining the forum.  I've just purchased an Oliver Elite II with the LifeBlue Lithium Ion batteries.  I was just researching what it would take to charge the LifeBlues from my TV alternator while driving - or even while idling as I'd like to leave my "emergency" generator at home.  I see from the LifeBlue spec sheet that it takes between 14.1 and 14.6 volts for the LifeBlue's to absorb charge (recommend 120 amps for 15 minutes).  I sent an email about this to your sales team alias and got back a reply and a recommended configuration (see attached diagram).  As it stands now, in addition to a solenoid, fuse and a high amp connector, I'd have to upgrade the charge wires in my TV to 0 or 00 gauge to maintain sufficient voltage and the high amps for charging.  It's 20' to the end of my truck and probably another 10 to the house LifeBlue's.  I asked Jason (service) how they were wiring the hot lead from the TV to the LifeBlue's but haven't heard back yet.  I'm pretty sure there will need to be some upgrades to the Oliver to make this happen as well.

Any experience, recommendation or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Maybe it's just easier to carry the generator for charging the batteries when there's no other sources available?Alternator Charge Circuit copy.pdf

Hello John and Anita,

First let me correct a misunderstanding. The LiFeBlue Battery BMS was specifically designed for RV and Marine applications where multiple charge sources are contributing power, at different voltages and current levels, sometimes all at once. Our BMS will allow a very broad power input. You can use anything from 1 Amp to full rated current as listed on the data sheet, and any voltage above the resting voltage up to 16 volts. You won't hurt our battery doing this. As long as you don't exceed the maximum current, you can use any amount to charge our battery. You don't need 120 Amps as stated. The 15 minute is an Absorb time to allow our cells to top balance and to recalibrate the SoC meter for accuracy.

About Alternators
Using your tow vehicle alternator as a backup power source is a great way to make power for loads and to charge the battery. Since there is not much roof space for PV solar power, this makes alternator charging even more important for boondocking.

We have designed many hundreds of alternator charge systems over the years.  These customers did not need to carry a generator. With the right size cable and minimal system losses, you can deliver 80 Amps or more from a tow vehicle alternator while just idling the engine.

LiFeBlue Battery will start accepting current at about 13.5 Volts. At that voltage, current will be very low. You should design for no more than 1% voltage drop from the alternator to the house battery if you need high current from the alternator.

I hope this helps.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

On 8/18/2020 at 12:33 PM, Dean said:

A Battle Born to LifeBlue technology comparison is apples to oranges.

The basic Battle Born 100 AH battery measures 12.75 X 6.875 X 9 and weighs #31. 

A Life Blue 200 AH battery measures 19.0" x 6.6" x 9.5", weighs #57 with Bluetooth.

Per AH the LifeBlue battery is 23% smaller and  8% lighter.  I believe the LB battery has a heat function in the Oliver to aid charging in cold temps.

 

 

 

Don't forget to add the cost and weight for the battery monitoring system that is a necessity for other Li battery brands. There is also additional weight for the battery cables.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

On 8/18/2020 at 4:45 PM, Susan Huff said:

Would this be in reference to leaving the batteries connected to a charge source continuously, such as a trickle charger, or connected to shore power so the trailer can have a heater on during cold weather?

@LiFeBlueBattery: Perhaps you have information explaining how a lithium battery/solar power system functions as configured in a travel trailer.  How the system works in comparison to flooded acid or AGM battery power and basic maintenance.  We are ordering our Oliver Elite II with the lithium Pro package.  This is a whole new realm for me as I'm sure it is for many other seasoned RV owners who are accustomed to older style RV power, or lack thereof.

Thank you for your support.

 

 

Hello Susan,

So glad to hear you have chosen the Pro package. It is a worry free design. We worked with Oliver to get the best package for their trailers.

You can leave LiFeBlue battery connected to any charge source of any voltage up to 16 Volts. Once a single cell is saturated (fully charged) at 3.8 Volts, the BMS will inhibit all charge current and report "Battery Over Voltage" on the event page in your Smart Connect App. Don't let that scare you. It just means the battery will not accept any more charge because it is full. For long term shore power use, your charger will lower the voltage to 13.8 Volts.

Hope this s helpful!

[LiFeBlueBattery]

On 8/18/2020 at 4:42 PM, Susan Huff said:

Does this mean it is likely our TV won't charge the LifeBlue batteries?  I'm asking Oliver what their take is on this.

Hi Ray and Susan,

For any TV to charge the house battery, you should install a circuit from the TV battery to the House battery using large cables and connectors. I am attaching a PDF file with suggestions on how to do this. I can't express how important this is to have unless you want to carry a generator and only charge while stationary. Many people with a proper charge circuit do not even carry a generator. They just idle the main engine to charge the battery or while driving. BTW, you would want this kind of charge circuit for any battery chemistry.

Alternator Charge Circuit copy.pdf

[LiFeBlueBattery]

14 hours ago, NCeagle said:

...Sending a constant un-managed low amp/low voltage trickle charge to Lead-Acid batteries is not dangerous and in fact good for them, but this is not the case for Lithiums - Lithiums cannot accept overcharge.  Maybe the LifeBlues manage this internally?  Maybe charging with a stock setup can cause repetitive BMS protection cycling and void the warranty?  Even if LifeBlue sends my phone a message that says "turn off that trickle charge now!" - I wouldn't be able to without stopping my truck, opening the hood and pulling the fuse.  🙂

I'm hoping LifeBlueBattery can help us understand if there are any risks and if so how to mitigate, etc.  No way I'm enabling this TV charging on my new Lithium's without more info.

Hi Again,

Our battery has a special BMS designed for just this situation. You can not harm our battery using the alternator, even at high power with a larger cable setup. Our BMS can accept a very broad current and voltage input. Basically it will take whatever you can supply.

I hope this is helpful. Let me know if you have more questions.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

7 hours ago, mossemi said:

This was included in Larry’s first posting and not the second.  I am including it as another contact method.

Larry Crutcher, GM
LiFeBlue Battery
sales@lifebluebattery.com
(920) LiFePO4
(920) 543-3764

Mossey

Hi Mossey, Thank you for adding that.

I need some help. I can't see where to setup my signature in the profile settings. I would like that to be at the bottom of every post. Thanks in advance.

[LiFeBlueBattery]

1 hour ago, Susan Huff said:

Thanks . . . . . is it harmful to leave the charging line to the trailer "hot" or do people simple disable it, as stated above, by removing the fuse?

 

Hi again Susan,

I'm trying to work through al these emails.

No, you can not harm LiFeBlue by leaving them connected to the alternator for any length of time. No need to do anything with fuses. Just hook up and have an adventure.