Natures Head venting

[John E Davies]

So, I am still completely in the dark in regards to the composting toilet. I can't find any pics of one installed in an Ollie, and the good folks at Oliver have not been answering my emails lately. I did send this question to Jason a few minutes ago, but I thought that I would throw it out to the Oliver Community for comments...

 

Can you please tell me: how does the Natures Head vent hose attach to the existing black vent system? Is it teed in or is the black tank vent capped off completely at the tank? The reason I ask is that:

 

If it is teed, then somebody could run water into the black tank through the black tank rinse line, flooding the bathroom through the toilet vent.

 

If the vent is capped at the tank, then there is no venting in the black tank. Running 60+ psi water into it through the rinse line could rupture the tank or the black drain plumbing.

 

Either situation is very bad news! Do you eliminate or plug the black tank rinse line to eliminate these possibilities?

 

If the rinse circuit is disconnected internally, this couldn't happen, but I am unsure if they considered these two disturbing scenarios. As an older gentleman who occasionally has brain farts, I have to make sure a system is bulletproof.

 

Comments?

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[KarenLukens]

Did they tell you that they are leaving the black tank in? I would think they would have no reason to install it at all being that it will now serve no purpose with the composter taking its place... The black tank rinse line is separate from the water connection lines and is hooked up via a separate hose outside, so no water can get in unless you hook water up to it. Then there is still a secondary shut off valve inside next to the tank. And you can just put a wrench on the black tank rinse line inlet and tighten the cap down so that it can't be removed by hand.

 

[John E Davies]

Reed, there is a multipage thread on the Natures Head toilet and it is quite clear that Oliver will not delete the unused black tank and plumbing and install additional fresh in its place. I plan to re-task mine eventually for additional fresh water capacity, and I would prefer that it remains as virginal as possible until then...  with no interaction with nasty moisture venting from my composting toilet.

 

I was told by the Service Dept via Anita in Sales that the NH vent "connects to the black vent".

 

What I don't know is what else they do to the system. I don't plan on blowing up my tank, but there should be no loopholes in a system design that would allow that to happen in the first place. Murphy's Law and all that.

 

Thanks for the pic and comments.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[Spike]

Thanks for asking this question, John. I too have requested that the Natures Head be installed in our Ollie, which we plan to pick up early June. Please let us know what you discover. It would be good to know that the black tank was completely sealed off. I understand that one reason, at least, that the black tank is installed, even if one orders the NH, is to be able to install a flush toilet if one decides to remove the NH toilet.

[SeaDawg]

John, that's a very good question. I wonder if the vent tube from the black tag is accessible from the removable vanity cover? Could it be cut and capped, with a one way valve so the empty and pristine tank can breathe in elevation changes? But, separate it from the composting vent?

 

At first glance, it would definitely seem prudent to separate the two systems... The active and inactive. Composting does generate heat and gas.

 

Sherry

[GrayGhost]

Don't know if this helps....Here is a photo of the inside of the vanity from a project I did earlier. I believe the black tank vent is the pipe on the far left of the photo.

[John E Davies]

John, that’s a very good question. I wonder if the vent tube from the black tag is accessible from the removable vanity cover? Could it be cut and capped, with a one way valve so the empty and pristine tank can breathe in elevation changes? But, separate it from the composting vent? At first glance, it would definitely seem prudent to separate the two systems… The active and inactive. Composting does generate heat and gas. Sherry

Sherry, that is what I was planning to do. But not have a one way valve. There needs to be a new and completely separated 1/2 inch vent hose coming off the top of the unused black tank, going out the bottom of the trailer for venting and overflow, just like the other tanks.

 

I don''t want to get into all the details of the mod I have in mind since it got discussed pretty heavily in the other thread. It won't take a lot of work to replumb the system.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[SeaDawg]

Yes, the most important is proper venting for the nature's head. Secondary, is normal venting for the unused black tank, to keep it safe in elevation and temperature changes.

Terciary, if you wish to convert it later to a freshwater tank, proper venting and connections?

Sherry

[John E Davies]

I received this from Jason about the toilet vent hose:

 

It is tied into the plumbing line under the bath vanity that vents out the roof of the camper. This plumbing pipe is used to allow air to vent out of the system for proper draining. It is not tied into the black tank, but the black tank flush port is on the outside of the camper. No one can run water into the black tank from outside because under the dinette seat inside the camper we have an inline shark bite valve that you will leave closed to prevent this from happening. The vent is also connected so if they did fill up the black tank it would overflow into the vent pipe and drain into the grey tank.

 

So it appears that the NH vent runs into the vanity and tees in up high, above the black and gray tanks. But the black vent is still wide open, and the rinse system is still fully operational. Oliver is very trusting that everybody who uses the plumbing will be intimately aware of all the nuances: "you will leave closed"!

 

Also, the black tank is connected via the vents to both the NH and the gray tank, so the inside will not remain virginal very long.....

 

I plan to take pics of the entire installation and start a new thread after I pick up the trailer in three weeks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane, WA

 

 

[Overland]

Please do take photos, and I'll be interested to see your fresh water retrofit.

[John E Davies]

I am confused by the waste schematic from the Owners Manual. Is the gray dump valve, the one on the left of the drawing, shown in the correct location? It should be at the very outlet of the gray tank, in the short leg of the tee, not in the main outlet pipe. As drawn, there is no way to isolate the gray and black tanks.

 

With all valves closed.... If the gray tank is empty, the black tank is full, and you open the black dump valve, waste will flow down the main pipe and then back up into the gray tank. That cannot be correct.

 

I have owned one travel trailer, and it had the typical setup where both gray and black waste lines go to a valve manifold, and the only way to interconnect them is to cap the outlet and open BOTH valves at the same time.

 

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[ScubaRx]

It is not drawn in the correct position. You are correct in stating that it should be right next to the outlet on the tank and it is.

[KarenLukens]

Yup it's wrong... I called them and then pointed it out to Jason in person when we picked ours up. They supposedly fixed it but every one that I see is still wrong... Lol. With the pipe the way it is, running the black with the rinse hose hooked up is the only way to clean that line. Thinking that leaving the black valve upen while opening the grey to clean the line just won't work with this system. Honestly, I think that dumping the grey first and then closing it  before draining the black might be best, but it's waste water either way...

[John E Davies]

Resurrecting an ancient thread.

 

I am still very disturbed that the black tank rinse system is not at all Murphy Proof.

 

If a mature, well intentioned but slightly forgetful owner (not me) opened the inside ball valve, connected and turned on fresh water at the rinse port, and neglected to open the black drain valve (say, his phone rang and he walked away to talk), the black tank would fill completely, going up the 2 inch tank vent to the tee under the vanity, and then the water and whatever nasties it contained would flow into the gray tank through its own vent pipe. Eventually all that muck would back up into the shower drain and fill the pan. Potentially it could flow out onto the cabin floor and out the cabin door, ....  if it was closed, the inside of the cabin would start to fill up.

 

If the grey tank travel valve was closed, the gray tank would not accept any black water and all of it would come out the shower drain opening.

 

I hate to contemplate such a sewage disaster, but it could easily happen. This is purely hypothetical. If it had happened, I would surely post lots of pictures.

 

You could fix this for about $40 in parts and a little labor. Add this electrically controlled ball valve at the fill port ...

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Motorized-Stainless-Electrical-U-S-Solid/dp/B06XD3W8QD

 

Add an on/ off limit switch at the black valve or its cable, to actuate the motorized valve when the dump valve opens.

 

Whenever the black dump valve is closed, the inlet water valve will not accept any water flow. Easy. Automatic. Foolproof.

 

Comments? Should I run this idea by the factory?

 

John Davies

 

 

[Try2Relax]

Resurrecting an ancient thread.

 

I am still very disturbed that the black tank rinse system is not at all Murphy Proof.

 

If a mature, well intentioned but slightly forgetful owner (not me) opened the inside ball valve, connected and turned on fresh water at the rinse port, and neglected to open the black drain valve (say, his phone rang and he walked away to talk), the black tank would fill completely, going up the 2 inch tank vent to the tee under the vanity, and then the water and whatever nasties it contained would flow into the gray tank through its own vent pipe. Eventually all that muck would back up into the shower drain and fill the pan. Potentially it could flow out onto the cabin floor and out the cabin door, …. if it was closed, the inside of the cabin would start to fill up.

 

If the grey tank travel valve was closed, the gray tank would not accept any black water and all of it would come out the shower drain opening.

 

I hate to contemplate such a sewage disaster, but it could easily happen. This is purely hypothetical. If it had happened, I would surely post lots of pictures.

 

You could fix this for about $40 in parts and a little labor. Add this electrically controlled ball valve at the fill port …

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Motorized-Stainless-Electrical-U-S-Solid/dp/B06XD3W8QD

 

Add an on/ off limit switch at the black valve or its cable, to actuate the motorized valve when the dump valve opens.

 

Whenever the black dump valve is closed, the inlet water valve will not accept any water flow. Easy. Automatic. Foolproof.

 

Comments? Should I run this idea by the factory?

 

John Davies

 

 

Or you could turn off the water when the phone rang, and then turn it back on when your off the phone and paying attention. God forbid, imagine if you got bad news on that phone call and had to run to the hospital, because of it, the trailer would fill until it got to the open vent in the head, cause it's open to prevent condensation, then it would run outside and you could flood the whole neighborhood until you ran the aquifer dry and completely ruined the water table destabilizing the tectonic plates and finally causing the great earthquake that causes California to disappear.

 

Maybe the next time you are going to rinse out your unused black tank you should let Reed and Karen know, so they can move inland..

 

Don't you have a composting head?

 

; )

[John E Davies]

Randy, Yes I have a composting toilet. I might use the black tank port as a fresh water fill eventually. I was pointing the situation out in case other owners might want their system to be Stupid Proof. Which as delivered, it is definitely not.

 

This is not about draining the acquifer. Remember that many owners are either completely new to RVs, or the may have physical or mental limitations. They might appreciate a design that turns the tank flush water on and off automatically when the tank handle is operated.

 

I am pretty sure that you don't think the idea has much merit. That is cool wih me.

 

Anybody else?

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[BackofBeyond]

. I was pointing the situation out in case other owners might want their system to be Stupid Proof.

 

JD , In all my years working with systems and people, some things you just cant "Stupid Proof" despite how much we try, but kudos for trying.

 

Anybody else?

 

I thought about a few ideas, but see my comment above, it seems there is a reason nature came up with natural selection...… however, given our elected officials, we continue to attempt to circumvent reality - some people are not stupid proof. YouTube is full of them, all in 1080p glory....

 

All in good fun.

 

 

 

RB