Freezing Rear Water Lines

[Rivernerd]

14 hours ago, GAP said:

The source of the claim that these trailers are 4 season for southern climates was made on this forum, by Jason, from the Oliver shop.  I could not find which chain he posted in so if anyone knows, please share.  To the best of my memory, he shared that by 4 Season, Oliver intended that to apply to where they are built in Tennessee.  

I believe I am the one who coined the term, in a post on this forum, "four-season trailer in the South, where they are made," not Jason.  I don't want Jason (for whom I have high regard) to take the blame for my choice of wording.

I accept full responsibility for that statement.  For what it's worth, I believe it accurately represents the true design capability of the stock Oliver trailers, including the ones, like our Hull #1291, that include the Truma Varioheat furnace with a return air duct in the bathroom.

Jason's post of February 8, 2023 may be the one you are thinking of.  It appears here:

 

[GAP]

9 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

I believe I am the one who coined the term, in a post on this forum, "four-season trailer in the South, where they are made," not Jason.  I don't want Jason (for whom I have high regard) to take the blame for my choice of wording.

I accept full responsibility for that statement.  For what it's worth, I believe it accurately represents the true design capability of the stock Oliver trailers, including the ones, like our Hull #1291, that include the Truma Varioheat furnace with a return air duct in the bathroom.

Jason's post of February 8, 2023 may be the one you are thinking of.  It appears here:

 

For the record, I am a big fan of Jason's as well.  He has always been straight with me and offers very knowledgable guidance.  I did not attribute a quote to him but was referring to a concept introduced in his post.   I can only speak for my trailer and my testing process which points to the cut off for water freezing in pex lines on a stock Elite 2 to be in multi day temps in the low 20s.  Just about anyplace where it snows is likely to see colder conditions than that. If my lines stayed liquid down to single digits with no modifications, I'd have no cause for complaint.  

I fear I'm cornering the market on cold weather posts, which is not fair, so will pipe in less in future discussions.

[SeaDawg]

13 minutes ago, GAP said:

 

I fear I'm cornering the market on cold weather posts, which is not fair, so will pipe in less in future discussions.

No, you're not. We have hundreds of posts on cold weather camping, and cold weather campers appreciate all of them.

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, GAP said:

I fear I'm cornering the market on cold weather posts, which is not fair, so will pipe in less in future discussions.

Don’t freeze yourself out of the back and forth… the more input the better!  Mike

[mossemi]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:15 AM, GAP said:

The area where the lines running through my garage in rear of the belly has consistently dropped below freezing when outside temps are still in the mid teens.  This is even though I made all the same alterations on return ducts that Oliver has plus the mod to heat feeds coming from the furnace as described in "More Airflow In Bathroom"

I have stayed out of this conversation because I really don't have any cold weather camping experience below 20°.  I started reviewing this post in the last week and your statement I quoted above caused me to think about a possible solution to the basement/garage plumbing issue.  A while back, Minnesota Oli posted about a bathroom mod he completed that facilitated saving the resident cold water that resides in the hot water line between the water heater and the bath shower head.  This mod accomplished 2 solutions.  The first being that the fresh water that was previously going down the bath drain, thus taking capacity away from grey water tank and the second was the fresh water savings by returning the cold water back to the fresh water tank.

Now to the part of his mod that might help the cold weather basement/garage plumbing issue.  His return line runs down the street side and crosses back to the curb side and tee's into the fresh water tank fill line.  The crossing point is just aft of the fresh water tank.  Now the thought I have is to move the City, Fresh and Hot water lines that run back and forth through the basement back to the mid cabin area below the beds and eliminate the lines running through the basement which you have pinpointed as the problem area.  I also think foam pipe insulation or pool noodles would also provide a measure of warmth to the water lines no matter where they are located.

Mossey

 

[John E Davies]

My 2 cents. I think Oliver chose to install the rear lines against the back wall for convenience during construction. It does allow removal of the fresh tank without disturbing them because they cross higher than the tank.

“Overland” modded his lines by running them across directly behind the fresh tank, eliminating or bypassing the rear pipes entirely. I don’t recall if he directed hot air there too, but I would add a 2” heat duct off the main furnace plenum and run it along those lines so warm air dumps out into the cargo area through a BIG expanded aluminum grate...

I think having the four fill ports sticking out out into the air is very silly, they need to be recessed with tight fitting doors. 

The double hull design is way cool, I like it a lot, but it is deceptive to advertise how well they insulate. The air gap is what provides the R value. There is a wonderful air gap between the cabin interior and the outside world, but all the appliances, plumbing, cargo, food and your clothes are PART of that gap. So they get ^%#*+ cold or blistering hot. Unless you open up all the hatches and doors. This is silly too IMHO.

This is moot for me since I don’t winter camp, but I personally think that locating the lines along the back wall is beyond stupid. These trailers are full of compromises - design and quality vs cost and ease of manufacture - go look at a $300,000+ Earth Cruiser if you want to camp in arctic conditions without freezing worries. Those expedition rigs, and Nimbl (ex XP Camper) are each designed by a single individual who pretty much imply “This is what works anywhere in the world, we have tested it there ourselves, this is how it will be built, if you don’t like it, go away.”

John Davies

Spokane WA

[GAP]

14 hours ago, Mike and Carol said:

Don’t freeze yourself out of the back and forth… the more input the better!  Mike

FREEZE myself out?  Pun intended?  

Thanks much for the support.

[Mike and Carol]

45 minutes ago, GAP said:

FREEZE myself out?  Pun intended?  

Pun intended.  Was waiting to see if anyone noticed…

[Minnesota Oli]

I have been following the discussion on this topic and just want to restate that with a mod done to the furnace duct system and zero changes to the water piping and adding no extra insulation I have tested in sub zero temperatures for two and half days with  water system not winterized  and experience no adverse affects.

I have read about many different mods to accomplish the goals of a four season camper and the troubles to hit that goal. I will admit that I have not had the opportunity to do further testing such as how it would do traveling with the furnace on, or if parked and experiencing very windy conditions. I think the initial test show very promising results and the mods to the duct system were not that difficult to do. I know this is relying on the heating system functioning but even a house up in Minnesota relies on the furnace working to avoid plumbing freeze ups. I did my mods not so much to camp in the winter but to have a bench mark of what it could withstand if I got caught in a cold snap while out camping.

Here is a link to a how to for anybody that is trying to get the Oliver ready for winter camping.

Here are some temperatures in different locations in the camper during testing.