Popping coming from Transfer Relay-

[trekhard]

2021 E2 390 AH 3000 W Inverter

I arrived to a full-service camping facility late afternoon.  I was plugged into 30A shorepower.  Around midnight- so about 6 hours after plugging in, I heard a pop/boom and then my inverter (which had been off) remote bluetooth turned on and the inverter made the charging sound.    This cycle repeated itself about 3-4 times every 5 minutes before I got up and looked.  I went outside and unplugged the vehicle.  The next day- I plugged back in.  It didn't happen right away, but it happened again that night and I got up and looked under the dinette seat.  I could hear the popping coming from the Transfer Relay switch (I think I am not 100% sure).   I looked at the built-in surge protector codes.  It said error code 0, but I did notice the energy coming through was not consistent, it varied around 5 points.   Additional info:  1) I believe I may  have been the first to use this power system but I'm not 100% sure.  The host asked another camper if they had an issue and they didn't.  It was a new state park.  There had been lightning that night and the host said lightning did seem to affect the power in the area.   I had my own surge protector plugged in at the post.  

Questions:  Was it my camper or their power?  Was there a safety issue/possible fire issue?  What makes the transfer switch pop?  Do I need service?  Is there a protection mechanism built into the camper that if shore power turns off the inverter will turn on?  Or was it just that the power went off, then came back on and I was hearing the charging of the batteries (not the inverter)?  It was that whiny machiney cooling off fan sound.  

 

It has been a few weeks since this happened so I don't remember all the details, but I could have sworn the inverter turned itself on when the power was shut down/popped.  Is there some sort of protection built it where it can do that?  Maybe I misidentified the charger turning on as the whole inverter turning on.  

[jd1923]

4 hours ago, trekhard said:

I could hear the popping coming from the Transfer Relay switch (I think I am not 100% sure).   I looked at the built-in surge protector codes.  It said error code 0, but I did notice the energy coming through was not consistent, it varied around 5 points.

The PD5100 ATS switches between two shore power sources (streetside or front receptacle intended for a generator). If the ATS goes bad, burns on the wrong side, you could have no power at all. It's likely not this device.

It is the EMS that has the remote switch with status and error code reader. See my first picture. The ATS is on left and EMS on the right. It would be difficult to ascertain which unit a noise would be coming from, being side-by-side in the same cabinet. Your setup may look different, since on our older hull OTT did not install an EMS and I installed the same unit to copy the newer OEM build.

Don't know how any power failure could start an inverter that was truly switched OFF, but I've read there are some different ON/OFF configurations on this model. Perhaps other experienced Xantrex 3000 owners could chime in here. We have a few!

The EMS E0 code means no error. This is the status you want. E1 through E10 are stated errors, defined on the cover plate and manual.

The EMS is a sensitive device. Another member just showed it to be the issue in their case. See this thread and notice the picture at the end showing the burnt neutral wire: Air conditioner and 110 outlets stop working while camping - Page 2 - Mechanical & Technical Tips - Oliver Owner Forums (olivertraveltrailers.com)

My second picture shows the insides of a good EMS when first installed. All wiring should look clean, free of corrosion and all connections tight.

It's impossible to diagnose an intermittent electrical issue from a past trip. I do suggest this as a check. Frist make sure that you are NOT connected to shore power and trip the 30A breaker as a secondary precaution. Remove the cover to the PD5100 ATS (snap-fit, clips on the sides) and remove the EMS cover plate (6 small Phillips screws). First use a strong flashlight and inspect every wire and connection, for anything not clean looking. Then tighten the 6 terminal screws in the EMS and I believe there are 9 connections in the ATS.

Replace the covers. Power up again when needed and that's likely all you can do for now, though you may soon get other suggestions. I also suggest when the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C product is installed you do NOT add another "surge protector plugged in at the post." I've read here and elsewhere where many forum members will disagree with me on this notion, but IMHO possible interference between these devices outweighs redundancy. Give the lesser post model to a friend that needs one. 

Could be there was no physical issue, merely the shore power at that campsite had intermittent surging causing the EMS to switch OFF/ON quickly which it is designed to do and does create sound in the solenoids opening/closing. However, I live by the motto "hear something, say something, do something!" You did the first two steps. Pull the covers on both devices for inspection and maintenance. Something I did when purchasing our used Oliver for peace of mind.

Edited August 13 by jd1923

[trekhard]

Thank you so much!!!  

[John Dorrer]

22 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

The PD5100 ATS switches between two shore power sources (streetside or front receptacle intended for a generator). If the ATS goes bad, burns on the wrong side, you could have no power at all. It's likely not this device.

It is the EMS that has the remote switch with status and error code reader. See my first picture. The ATS is on left and EMS on the right. It would be difficult to ascertain which unit a noise would be coming from, being side-by-side in the same cabinet. Your setup may look different, since on our older hull OTT did not install an EMS and I installed the same unit to copy the newer OEM build.

Don't know how any power failure could start an inverter that was truly switched OFF, but I've read there are some different ON/OFF configurations on this model. Perhaps other experienced Xantrex 3000 owners could chime in here. We have a few!

The EMS E0 code means no error. This is the status you want. E1 through E10 are stated errors, defined on the cover plate and manual.

The EMS is a sensitive device. Another member just showed it to be the issue in their case. See this thread and notice the picture at the end showing the burnt neutral wire: Air conditioner and 110 outlets stop working while camping - Page 2 - Mechanical & Technical Tips - Oliver Owner Forums (olivertraveltrailers.com)

My second picture shows the insides of a good EMS when first installed. All wiring should look clean, free of corrosion and all connections tight.

It's impossible to diagnose an intermittent electrical issue from a past trip. I do suggest this as a check. Frist make sure that you are NOT connected to shore power and trip the 30A breaker as a secondary precaution. Remove the cover to the PD5100 ATS (snap-fit, clips on the sides) and remove the EMS cover plate (6 small Phillips screws). First use a strong flashlight and inspect every wire and connection, for anything not clean looking. Then tighten the 6 terminal screws in the EMS and I believe there are 9 connections in the ATS.

Replace the covers. Power up again when needed and that's likely all you can do for now, though you may soon get other suggestions. I also suggest when the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C product is installed you do NOT add another "surge protector plugged in at the post." I've read here and elsewhere where many forum members will disagree with me on this notion, but IMHO possible interference between these devices outweighs redundancy. Give the lesser post model to a friend that needs one. 

Could be there was no physical issue, merely the shore power at that campsite had intermittent surging causing the EMS to switch OFF/ON quickly which it is designed to do and does create sound in the solenoids opening/closing. However, I live by the motto "hear something, say something, do something!" You did the first two steps. Pull the covers on both devices for inspection and maintenance. Something I did when purchasing our used Oliver for peace of mind.

Using a high quality EMS surge protector at the power post is highly recommended. An EMS surge protector such as a Hughes Watchdog 30amp with EPO will stop an issue at the post, shutting down power before damage is done at the trailer. 

 

Please make sure you have all of the facts before making comments that are wrong.

 

Mike Sokol is a highly recommended electrical engineer, that is considered the leader in RV electronics.

 

 

https://rvelectricity.com/2018/09/23/rvelectricity-can-i-add-a-second-surge-protector/

 

[John Dorrer]

37 minutes ago, trekhard said:

Thank you so much!!!  

It is a good idea to use a high quality EMS Surge protector at the power pole. Surge Guard, Hughes Watchdog 30amp with EPO, or the Progressive are around $350+/- and they will stop low or high surges, and other issues that can damage our Oliver's, including lightening strikes and ground issues. See the link in my earlier response.

[trekhard]

John do you have any idea what the problem was- is there a safety issue etc?  Is it indicative of the Transfer Relay going bad as I'm reading on other RV forums? 

[John Dorrer]

57 minutes ago, trekhard said:

John do you have any idea what the problem was- is there a safety issue etc?  Is it indicative of the Transfer Relay going bad as I'm reading on other RV forums? 

The person that can provide the best electronic advise on the Forum is Steve Landrum. I would send him a message. He maybe camping somewhere. The transfer switch has been an issue until the supplier upgraded the switch.

 

I also would suggest unhooking from shore power and checking the transfer switch wire connectors, and the EMS surge protector under the Dinette seat.

Edited August 14 by John Dorrer
Updated Comment

[John Dorrer]

1 hour ago, trekhard said:

John do you have any idea what the problem was- is there a safety issue etc?  Is it indicative of the Transfer Relay going bad as I'm reading on other RV forums? 

Another Oliver Owner had issues in a campground. He smelled burning under the Dinette. He didn't feel comfortable with electrical, so he hired a knowledgeable Mobile RV guy. This person went through everything and checked the transfer switch which was good. He found melted wires in the EMS. The mobile guy told him there was a good chance this wouldn't have happened if he had a good EMS surge protector at the post. The built in EMS saved his electronics. Contact a Mobile guy that knows electronics if you aren't comfortable. Again reach out to Steve Landrum.

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, John Dorrer said:

Please make sure you have all of the facts before making comments that are wrong.

This has got to stop! Perhaps in your eyes, but I never call the opinions of others wrong, nor personally attack fellow Oliver Owners calling them "rude" as you have done. I quote "rude" from your post of last week, where I bit my tongue with no reply, only marking your post with a Sad emoji. This wasn't the first time.

BTW, opinions are NOT facts, mine nor yours. Facts can be wrong, and opinions cannot by definition. I premised my statement with "IMHO" and OMG, I even wrote that others may believe in the contrary position. I will say that my opinions are based on literally several hundreds of professional installations I have labored myself in the aftermarket automotive service industry and a dozen auto/truck restorations, now on my 3rd RV restoration/upgrade. I have helped and been thanked for many knowledgeable posts, including this one before your comments, where today I spent a half hour of my time researching and writing this. I do not need OTT or any other Service Co to work on my Oliver. It will be worked using my opinions and two hands. I write from this knowledge and capability.

So let's get the facts straight. Please allow me to quote Mr. Sokol from the article you linked, where he wrote "However, for any of you who don’t have an intelligent/EMS surge protector like your EMS-HW50C which checks for high and low voltage as well as open grounds, let me suggest..." Simply put, he wrote for those "who don't have" the EMS-HW50C (Olivers have the 30A version of the same "intelligent/EMS" device). I certainly agree with Mr. Sokol's opinion.

Mr. Dorrer, you can PM me with an apology if you like. That would be a great way to end this. You voiced your opinion twice here. Can we stick to the subject.

P.S. Forum Mods: Please feel free to delete this post given you have deleted its predecessor. There is no call for either and I'm truly sorry for my part! 😞

[mossemi]

I used to think that a pole mounted surge protector was overkill until I sat in on a Mike Sokol presentation at the Florida RV show in January.  Someone in the crowd asked if a surge protector was necessary at the pole because he already had EMS on board and Mike answered that the benefit of a second surge protector at the pole would extend the life of the on board EMS.  He further explained that all surge protectors have a life span and every surge takes time away from that, so he suggested that the one at the pole would be sacrificed to save the on board EMS.  This made sense to me so I started using a Southwire Surge Guard.

Mossey

[CRM]

2 hours ago, mossemi said:

I used to think that a pole mounted surge protector was overkill until I sat in on a Mike Sokol presentation at the Florida RV show in January.  Someone in the crowd asked if a surge protector was necessary at the pole because he already had EMS on board and Mike answered that the benefit of a second surge protector at the pole would extend the life of the on board EMS.  He further explained that all surge protectors have a life span and every surge takes time away from that, so he suggested that the one at the pole would be sacrificed to save the on board EMS.  This made sense to me so I started using a Southwire Surge Guard.

Mossey

That's the way to do it. And when you're looking to purchase a surge protector there are two things you should be must concerned with- the "joules" rating which is how much energy it can absorb before failure (the higher the number the better) and how easy it is to replace the surge unit when it is all used up and fails. Some are user replaceable, some need to be sent back to the manufacturer, and some are throw away.

[jd1923]

Not going to ever talk to the pole mount again. Is it OK with everybody here that I'm not using one? I installed our PI EMS-HW30C brand new months ago where OTT had installed none. I read the EMS panel every time we plug in since I installed the remote in plain view in the trunk, where I keep the shore power cord. When it reads good the second I plug it in, is good enough for me.

Mr. Sokol called it an "intelligent/EMS" so it must be a decent product. Is it a bit old-school using mechanical solenoids in its simple design. Before I would add a redundant device (btw all you're risking is the Furrion 30A receptacle, 1 ft of 10-3 cable and the EMS-HW30C itself doing its job), a smarter upgrade would be what @Ronbrink installed. Great work though I'm OK with the $160 upgrade adding the EMS-HW30C. Hughes Autoformers Install - Ollie Modifications - Oliver Owner Forums (olivertraveltrailers.com) Spend $350+ on the pole mount Hughes and it could be gone when you get to the trailer one afternoon to overnight.

 

I'm not going to call it rude, but it's not helpful at all when a Forum member is asking for help, followed by others writing at length, that you should-a, could-a done something else. I love when I hear a sound, a flicker, a smell or anything pointing to an issue, as I've been notified of the issue, and I've got something to go on.

@trekhard you did the right thing in hearing this, perceiving an issue. So many ignore sounds and other clues. Like the guy driving down the road where every time he touches the steering wheel there is a whine. If I see him at a stoplight, I'll suggest he fills the PS reservoir and if it appears full, change the belts (all of them). 🤣

I feel the greatest likelihood is that you hooked up at one location to shore power that had intermittent issues. Your PI EMS-HW30C protector worked well as it should have! The internal solenoids do make "popping" sounds when activated.

Clare, I'm not sure how old you hull is, though I still suggest you open the covers, take a good look, tighten terminal screws as I detailed above and best wishes, JD

[Steph and Dud B]

If the Xantrex inverter is turned on and the trailer is connected to shore power, the inverter will kick in if shore power goes out. There's even a setting in the Xantrex that controls the delay before power transfers to the inverter. 

I learned this while researching the various settings. It could be very useful for people with critical electrical equipment.

[Ronbrink]

On 8/13/2024 at 2:20 PM, trekhard said:

Or was it just that the power went off, then came back on and I was hearing the charging of the batteries (not the inverter)?  It was that whiny machiney cooling off fan sound.  

Most likely that is what you were hearing. 

 

On 8/13/2024 at 2:20 PM, trekhard said:

This cycle repeated itself about 3-4 times every 5 minutes

You mentioned the power source was not consistent and was likely low enough for the EMS to shutdown to protect the Oliver. Here is a quote from another owner on this forum that you may find helpful in understanding the situation experienced. 

On 12/24/2023 at 4:04 AM,  MobileJoy said “If the voltage drops to around 104V, the EMS will cut off shore power. If the Xantrex is drawing a lot of power (as it will by default when charging your batteries), with an unstable shore power source this could bring down the voltage to the point of EMS shutdown. This removes the power drain and allows the voltage to rise. Once it is sufficient, the EMS cuts back in and eventually powers the Xantrex. The resulting battery charging draw will bring down the voltage, etc., etc. I had this happen to our trailer at a campground that had unstable 30A shore power.”

I had this same occurrence happen to me once and this was a response provided by @MobileJoy that made perfect sense! 

 

Edited August 14 by Ronbrink

[John Dorrer]

5 hours ago, mossemi said:

I used to think that a pole mounted surge protector was overkill until I sat in on a Mike Sokol presentation at the Florida RV show in January.  Someone in the crowd asked if a surge protector was necessary at the pole because he already had EMS on board and Mike answered that the benefit of a second surge protector at the pole would extend the life of the on board EMS.  He further explained that all surge protectors have a life span and every surge takes time away from that, so he suggested that the one at the pole would be sacrificed to save the on board EMS.  This made sense to me so I started using a Southwire Surge Guard.

Mossey

Mike Sokol would be a great addition for the Annual Oliver Rally speaking on topics we all run into.

 

He is big on Southwires Surge Guard, but has stated that Hughes Watchdog EMS with EPO and the Progressive are all great portable EMS surge protectors. 

 

I get Mike's daily newsletter, access to his many articles, and I follow his Facebook site.