Charging on the generator

[FLYnGATOR]

While charging on the generator, the 25 amp circuit breaker on the Zantrex 3000 inverter keeps tripping. I’m running the generator and the inverter switch ON

I’m using a champion 3400 W generator and running the air conditioner simultaneously. Could it be the charger and the air conditioner are pulling too many amps simultaneously tripping the breaker?

I’m going to try charging only, with the air conditioner off and inverter switch OFF

any thoughts?

 

Mark
 

 

 

[Geronimo John]

8 hours ago, FLYnGATOR said:

I’m running the generator and the inverter switch ON

Here is how I remember it: 

• The Inverter's job is to Invert your power.  It takes DC from the batteries and turns in in to AC via a transformer an turns it upside down again and a gain to create 60 hertz Alternating Current for your 120 V systems.
• The Converter takes 120 volt power and Chargers your batteries.

Normally the Auto Transfer Switch causes the Inverter to not be energized at the same time as the C.  nThis is because the inverter is not needed when you have A/C power from a shore power source.   

But it is possible and desirable to charge your batteries using the C and also power it up by your generator providing the energy to do so.  This can be a high draw and "sucks up" much of what the main breaker will allow.  Since I don't have  clue what systems you have in a wonderful 2024, I can only suggest that if you have the ability to change your C charge rate, it may be pulling a lot of power that overloads the breaker.  Hence some folks have dialed down the charge rate to leave more power available for other uses.   You can check this by flipping the C's breaker off and see if you are still tripping the main breaker when on generator.

OH one more hint.  Many generators require us to use a bonded neutral plug.  Like Honda's for example.  I would start with that topic on the forum. The Progressive Industries EMS will no allow power from an unbonded neutrall for such generators.  But failing to do so has not tripped a main that I am aware of.  It willl however preclude shore power from getting you to your 120V loads.

Hope this helps out a little bit.

GJ 

[Snackchaser]

19 hours ago, FLYnGATOR said:

any thoughts?

Hi Mark,

There could be a number of reasons why the 25 amp Inverter breaker is tripping.  However, assuming that the Air Conditioning and Charger are otherwise working fine, then the most likely reasons are the inverter settings, the breaker, or the generator.   

It’s helpful to understand that all AC loads (except the refrigerator) pass-through the inverter, and it automatically prioritizes current to the AC loads over charging.  So when the 20 amp Air Conditioner is passing through, it throttles down the charger amps to prevent overcurrent.  The inverter charge current demand is highest when the battery is discharged, so it might just be overworking the inverter enough to trip the breaker’s thermo element when running the Air Conditioner with a discharged battery.  If the battery is not fully discharged, and it’s still tripping, then read on.

BTW, if the inverter is turned-on while using shore or generator power, it only means that it will automatically transfer to battery power if shore power fails.  Also, the generator neutral bonding will not impact the current or breaker, but it’s required by code.

I have 4 troubleshooting suggestions.  Items 3 and 4 will require some experimentation with the inverter settings and this is best done using the Xantrex phone app.  These settings will not harm anything, but they will reduce inverter output to match the capacity of your generator.

1. It’s a low probability that the 25 amp breaker is bad, but it is a possibility because the inverter should warn you and shut down when it nears it maximum output… before the breaker trips.  A quick assessment can be made without an amp meter.  If it’s tripping instantly, it means the magnetic short circuit trip function is probably bad and the breaker should be replaced.  If it trips’s after some time, and it can easily re-set after cooldown, then it’s tripping on the thermo function and it’s probably okay.
2. The generator is big enough to handle your loads, but it could be that the regulator is not working properly.  Verify that it’s increasing RPMs when the load increases.  You can also check the input voltage on the Xantrex display, it should be close to 120 volts.
3. The inverter’s charger current setting is too high (Setting 24.)  The default setting is 150 amps, but it’s not an amp to amp conversion.  I’d set it to 30 amps and if the breaker no longer trips, then dial it up in 20 amp increments until you find a trip-less value.  I had to change this setting on my inverter because it was drawing more current than my 2000 watt generator could supply, and I was getting low voltage brown outs.  It would have probably tripped the breaker eventually, but the generator tripped first.  I think I finally set it to 60 amps.
4. The inverter’s AC input breaker setting is too high (Setting 28.)  This impacts the load prioritization ratio.  The default setting is 50 amps so you can start by setting it to 25 amps to see if that works.  If so, then dial it up in 5 amp increments until you find a value below the breaker trip value.

Note:  I’d change settings 24 and 28 at the same time, then dial them up until you find a an acceptable value where the breaker does not trip.

I hope that helps!  Cheers, Geoff

[John Dorrer]

34 minutes ago, Snackchaser said:

Hi Mark,

There could be a number of reasons why the 25 amp Inverter breaker is tripping.  However, assuming that the Air Conditioning and Charger are otherwise working fine, then the most likely reasons are the inverter settings, the breaker, or the generator.   

It’s helpful to understand that all AC loads (except the refrigerator) pass-through the inverter, and it automatically prioritizes current to the AC loads over charging.  So when the 20 amp Air Conditioner is passing through, it throttles down the charger amps to prevent overcurrent.  The inverter charge current demand is highest when the battery is discharged, so it might just be overworking the inverter enough to trip the breaker’s thermo element when running the Air Conditioner with a discharged battery.  If the battery is not fully discharged, and it’s still tripping, then read on.

BTW, if the inverter is turned-on while using shore or generator power, it only means that it will automatically transfer to battery power if shore power fails.  Also, the generator neutral bonding will not impact the current or breaker, but it’s required by code.

I have 4 troubleshooting suggestions.  Items 3 and 4 will require some experimentation with the inverter settings and this is best done using the Xantrex phone app.  These settings will not harm anything, but they will reduce inverter output to match the capacity of your generator.

1. It’s a low probability that the 25 amp breaker is bad, but it is a possibility because the inverter should warn you and shut down when it nears it maximum output… before the breaker trips.  A quick assessment can be made without an amp meter.  If it’s tripping instantly, it means the magnetic short circuit trip function is probably bad and the breaker should be replaced.  If it trips’s after some time, and it can easily re-set after cooldown, then it’s tripping on the thermo function and it’s probably okay.
2. The generator is big enough to handle your loads, but it could be that the regulator is not working properly.  Verify that it’s increasing RPMs when the load increases.  You can also check the input voltage on the Xantrex display, it should be close to 120 volts.
3. The inverter’s charger current setting is too high (Setting 24.)  The default setting is 150 amps, but it’s not an amp to amp conversion.  I’d set it to 30 amps and if the breaker no longer trips, then dial it up in 20 amp increments until you find a trip-less value.  I had to change this setting on my inverter because it was drawing more current than my 2000 watt generator could supply, and I was getting low voltage brown outs.  It would have probably tripped the breaker eventually, but the generator tripped first.  I think I finally set it to 60 amps.
4. The inverter’s AC input breaker setting is too high (Setting 28.)  This impacts the load prioritization ratio.  The default setting is 50 amps so you can start by setting it to 25 amps to see if that works.  If so, then dial it up in 5 amp increments until you find a value below the breaker trip value.

Note:  I’d change settings 24 and 28 at the same time, then dial them up until you find a an acceptable value where the breaker does not trip.

I hope that helps!  Cheers, Geoff

I tried to help on Mark's Facebook post. I think your explanation is correct. I was trying to figure out why he has the inverter on. Using shore power at the power post or a generator the inverter shouldn't be on. I was getting hung up on this.

 

I have charged our 2022 LE, Lithium & Solar without changing any settings. I have also run the AC without making any adjustments. When I use the generator it is being run on fuel. He is running his on LP.

 

[John Dorrer]

20 hours ago, FLYnGATOR said:

While charging on the generator, the 25 amp circuit breaker on the Zantrex 3000 inverter keeps tripping. I’m running the generator and the inverter switch ON

I’m using a champion 3400 W generator and running the air conditioner simultaneously. Could it be the charger and the air conditioner are pulling too many amps simultaneously tripping the breaker?

I’m going to try charging only, with the air conditioner off and inverter switch OFF

any thoughts?

 

Mark
 

 

 

Mark, I think you got better recommendations here. Hopefully you get things sorted out.

[FLYnGATOR]

Great explanation!

 Thanks so much for the information!

 I’ll keep you posted 

Mark

[Geronimo John]

12 hours ago, Snackchaser said:

Also, the generator neutral bonding will not impact the current or breaker, but it’s required by code.

On our "Older" Ollie's the Progressive Industries system switch makes a difference to getting power into the trailer when the power is coming from most generators that require neutral bonding.. 

Are you saying that is not the case for "Newer" Ollies?

Thanks just trying to keep up to date.

 

[rich.dev]

9 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

On our "Older" Ollie's the Progressive Industries system switch makes a difference to getting power into the trailer when the power is coming from most generators that require neutral bonding.. 

Are you saying that is not the case for "Newer" Ollies?

Thanks just trying to keep up to date.

On our 2023 you still need the neutral bonding plug to run a generator, you can override it by turning off the progressive industries switch in the attic. 

[Snackchaser]

10 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

On our "Older" Ollie's the Progressive Industries system switch makes a difference to getting power into the trailer when the power is coming from most generators that require neutral bonding.. 

Are you saying that is not the case for "Newer" Ollies?

Thanks just trying to keep up to date.

 

This is a great question John, and it brings to mind that a lot of folks probably don’t understand the importance of bonded neutrals on RV generators.

The NEC requires neutrals to be bonded to ground at all power sources so that any fault currents have a path back to the source.  This assures that any fault current has a low resistance path to ground that can handle enough current to trip the breakers.  Otherwise, the fault current will look for an alternate path to ground and there might not be enough current flow to trip the breaker… at least until someone comes along and completes the path to ground and gets a shocking surprise!

This is particularly important for the Progressive Industries transfer switches because they switch both the hot and neutral wires.  When the switch transfers to an un-bonded neutral, then it’s possible to create a situation where there is no path to ground.  This is true for all Olivers, both old and new.

Additionally, GFCI’s and surge protectors rely on the ground to detect circuit imbalances.  Both the hot and neutral conductors pass through a Current Transformer and cancel each other out in a balanced circuit.  However, any leakage to ground from either hot or neutral wire will be detected by the Current Transformer, which then instantly interrupts the circuit.  This can’t work if the neutral isn't bonded to the ground.

So it’s important that RV generators are bonded to ground, and most of them are.  It should say so on the label, and the few that aren’t bonded, including Hondas, will say something like “floating ground.”  If you're still uncertain, then just use a Generator Bonding Plug which are readily available for under $20.  

Cheers, Geoff

[Mike and Carol]

I have a 2K watt Champion inverter generator that I just plug in to, I haven’t used a special plug.  I guess I need to look to see if the Champion is “bonded to ground”, something I wasn’t aware of.  Going on 10 years and still learning….  Mike

[Geronimo John]

8 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

I have a 2K watt Champion inverter generator that I just plug in to, I haven’t used a special plug.  I guess I need to look to see if the Champion is “bonded to ground”, something I wasn’t aware of.  Going on 10 years and still learning….  Mike

Either that OR you have been running power protection naked for ten years.  Good news is that if so you still have a lot of Joules left in your Progressive Industries power filter! 

[Geronimo John]

1 hour ago, Snackchaser said:

This is a great question John, and it brings to mind that a lot of folks probably don’t understand the importance of bonded neutrals on RV generators.

Geoff: 

For sure.  When I first purchased my Ollie (2018) I was having power issues and could not figure it out.  Then one of the forum owners mentioned the use of the bonded plug.  Problems disappeared.  But every so often the issue pokes its head out of the covers and all of a sudden it is a new topic.  This is one item that OTT needs to really stress in their Owner's training and manual.

Thank you for the details on how it works.  That I did not fully know.  Your post has made it's way into my DIY folder so I can whip it out when the covers get disturbed again for another owner.

GJ

Edited 6 hours ago by Geronimo John
added visual of device discussed.

[Mike and Carol]

10 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

Either that OR you have been running power protection naked for ten years.  Good news is that if so you still have a lot of Joules left in your Progressive Industries power filter! 

Yep, joule preservation is important when running naked, (power protection naked, of course).

[Geronimo John]

47 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

Yep, joule preservation is important when running naked, (power protection naked, of course).

I was wondering it anybody would catch that one.  LOL!

  

Edited 6 hours ago by Geronimo John