Land Cruiser 200 Towing thread

[John E Davies]

This one’s for John

Thanks very much Randy, I had not seen this video. It is pretty thorough. The guy runs his own Land Cruiser shop and he was at the NW Overland Rally last June in Plain WA and gave a very entertaining 1 hour off the cuff talk. He really knows overlanding.

 

Good guy, great trucks. I would buy a nicely kept four year old 200 with 75,000 miles long before I would buy a brand new Chevy Ford or Ram. It's a way better vehicle.

 

Oh wait, that is just what I did.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[John E Davies]

This is a crosspost, but it might be interesting for those learning about the 200.... You can use Low Range on pavement if needed, something that very few other vehicles can safely do. It’s a great feature.

 

http://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/have-you-used-4wd-low-on-public-roads-and-highways/

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[mossemi]

John,

 

I had a 50k service completed a few weeks ago on my LC and opt'd to replace the air and cabin filters myself.  Today I completed those tasks but noticed what appears to be something missing.  Can you or any Tundra owners tell me what should connect to the open port?  Thanks is advance.

[John E Davies]

John,

 

I had a 50k service completed a few weeks ago on my LC and opt’d to replace the air and cabin filters myself. Today I completed those tasks but noticed what appears to be something missing. Can you or any Tundra owners tell me what should connect to the open port? Thanks is advance.

 

OUCH. That is where a crankcase breather hose should go. Please do not drive it any longer this way. I wonder why it is not leaking oil?  Are you sure it was not removed very recently? Pull the plastic cover off and see what the rest of that system looks like.

 

 

That is more than a little unreal, I wonder what the story is behind it’s being gone? You need to talk to the shop that worked on it last, they should have noted its absence, if not caused it!

 

RE your cabin air filter: you MUST turn on the ignition and switch to Recirculate. This swings the blend door up and forward so you can reach the filter element. If forced open, the door will break where the actuator shaft enters, making it inoperative. This is fairly common, and not an easy or cheap fix. Mine is busted, and I need to pull the fan box out to see if I can repair it, or if I will have to change the entire $450 housing assembly. I have been moving the door manually from Recir to Normal by reaching in though the filter access opening. There are several threads about it at Ih8mud.com. There are a number of pissed off owners, it is a very stupid design.

 

Read this.... there is a 20% “reported rate” of door breakage. ...https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/important-check-your-hvac-recirculate-door-and-answer-poll.1021239/

 

You have to wonder how many 200 busted doors out there are as yet undiscovered. I hope yours is OK.

 

Good luck,

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[mossemi]

Thanks for the response and advice.  I’ll follow up with the Toyota service department and see want they have to say.

[John E Davies]

Thanks for the response and advice. I’ll follow up with the Toyota service department and see want they have to say.

 

Any updates on your missing hose?

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[John E Davies]

I love The Fast Lane. These guys really know how to make an entertaining and informative video. They just bought a ten year old Land Cruiser 200 with the intention of converting it into a true overland vehicle.... 

 

These trucks just walk up nasty terrain that is hard or impassible for most rigs, with no stress or trauma. They make the driver feel invincible. From the comments:

 

Reading Land Cruiser forums be like: "So today I drove from New York to the Congo with stock everything and a snorkel."

 

Reading Range Rover forums be like: "What's that liquid on my floor board? Where is that smell coming from? Is something on fire?"

 

Love it!

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[mossemi]

mossemi wrote:

Thanks for the response and advice. I’ll follow up with the Toyota service department and see want they have to say.

Any updates on your missing hose?

 

Thanks.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

Sorry I missed your response.  Not sure how I missed the notification if there was one.  But I noticed your LC 200 thread in recent topics and looked to see your latest posting.  That’s when I noticed I had missed your update request.

 

Anyway, to answer your question about the hose, it was tucked up under the engine cover.  No one at the dealership could explain why, but the hose is back in place and all is good.

 

While looking through the posting I saw the Tekonsha P3 installation pictures.  I had tried to find a mounting place for the P3 and never found a suitable location I was happy with.  So I sent it back and bought the Redarc controller and included a picture off the install.  After a year of service I can say I am very please with the product.

 

Mike

[mossemi]

Just re-reading the LC post and realized that a picture of the REDARC brake controller I wanted to include was not attached.  So here goes?.

[Jairon]

John and Mike,

I've never towed anything larger than a lawn mower before so please forgive me for the questions I'm about to throw at you!

Are both of you still using your LC200 to tow your trailer? Do either of you know how the vehicle towed without the Anderson hitch? I'm really curious to know if you think the improvements are worth the cost. It sounds like the Elite II doesn't have much sway to begin with and I would basically be buying it to take weight off the tongue (please correct me if I'm wrong here).  Also, am I mistaken in thinking the bulldog hitch can be extended forward to accomplish similar weight reduction on the tongue?

John, based on some other threads I read of yours, your LC still has more bounce than you'd prefer. What is the max PSI you've added to the bags and is there a reason you don't go higher?

Are there any other suggestions either of you have for improving the towing capabilities of the LC? Maybe things you'd like to try but haven't for one reason or another.

Do you have a ball and mount recommendation?

Would both of you still recommend your brake controller?

Thank you and sorry! 😃

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Jairon

[mossemi]

Yes, I am still towing with a 14 LC200.

No, I never tried towing the Oliver without the Andersen WD hitch because the LC specs require a WD hitch for the weight of the Oliver.  It’s not a question of sway, it’s a loading issue.

Yes, I would buy another REDARC brake controller.  I bought a P3 to begin with and just couldn’t find a place where it didn’t look like a garage door opener bolted to my dash.  So I tried the REDARC and liked the ease of installation and it has performed flawlessly.  And the REDARC plugged into the LC with the P3 adapter cable I had already bought.

I use the Timbren SES instead of airbags, but JD has much more off-road experience than I do so his choice of airbags bears consideration.

I also use the 2” Andersen ball with my WD hitch and JD has upgraded to the 2-5/16”.

Early Oliver’s had an extending tongue, but that has not been available for years.

Mossey

[John E Davies]

Jairon, I agree entirely with Mossey. It isn’t a matter of sway, it is a great way to dampen the nasty vertical jounce that occurs over rough pavement or undulations like the approach to a highway bridge. I chose to keep the stock LC suspension because I like the soft ride on gravel and forest roads. Upgrading to a stiffer high quality aftermarket suspension, with adjustable dampening in back, might help a little.
 

But IMHO there is no getting around having to use the Andersen on an LE2. I have towed briefly with the chains disconnected, and it was a scary and unpleasant experience. An LE would be OK, I think, with a simple deadweight ball or an offroad coupler.

I do feel that keeping the tongue as light as possible is very beneficial. Since I moved my rack and jerry cans to the back, the TW went from 720 pounds to 480 pounds. Now I keep very minimal chain tension, enough to stabilize vertically, and with 12 psi in the rear bags it tows amazingly well. With the unladen 4 psi setting it is not nearly as secure and it is a little butt low.

What year is your 200? The newer 8 speed is wonderful, but Toyota really screwed up by changing the axles from 3.90, which is marginal, to 3.30. Stupid! Either model will benefit from a used set of Tundra 4.30 takeoff ring and pinions. If you are running big tires (over 33 inches) then an even lower ratio would be best. You have to go to the aftermarket for 4.88 gears. An 8 speed 200 with its MUCH lower first gear and with 4.30 or higher gears would be a towing monster. A R and P swap will cost $2000+ and will also require a speedo correction device of some sort. I don’t know what is available. This compares the two models and is eye opening:

Stock tires are not great, they are far too squooshy. Load E tires increase stability and also prevent flats (sidewall cuts especially) off pavement. The downside is a rougher ride.

I like the Tekonsha P3, tho I do agree that it is very crappy looking. I like all the features and adjustability. It works well pretty much anywhere except in a true offroad application, where it gets confused. I continue to recommend it to anybody wanting a full featured controller.

I suggest that you buy a simple 2” ball mount that will give you about an 18” ball height and borrow or rent a good sized utility trailer for a weekend. Something around 3000 pounds will give you a feel for the truck’s behavior yet not require a controller or WD hitch. U Haul has specs for all their trailers.

Give us a little more info about your truck, including any mods. That will help

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited July 25, 2020 by John E Davies

[Jairon]

Thanks, Mossey! The REDARC's installation looks simple and clean. The controller isn't listed as being compatible after 2017 but I'm guessing it simply hasn't been updated on their site. There is a youtube video of someone installing it in their 2018 so I should be good on a 2019.

1 hour ago, mossemi said:

Early Oliver’s had an extending tongue, but that has not been available for years.

Good to know!

[Jairon]

32 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

But IMHO there is no getting around having to use the Andersen on an LE2. I have towed briefly with the chains disconnected, and it was a scary and unpleasant experience. An LE would be OK, I think, with a simple deadweight ball or an offroad coupler.

I'd be a fool to go against the manual and two LC and Oliver owners - I'm sold.

37 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Since I moved my rack and jerry cans to the back, the TW went from 720 pounds to 480 pounds. Now I keep very minimal chain tension, enough to stabilize vertically, and with 12 psi in the rear bags it tows amazingly well.

Wow! Maybe I should skip the front rack and switch back to 20lb propane tanks.

Someone on ih8mud was towing a 5500-6000 lbs trailer on 35psi using the firestone bags. Have you taken yours over 12 and if so, what made you go back to 12?

46 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

What year is your 200?

It is a 2019 with 0 modifications. I remember reading about people towing in sport mode to to stay out of overdrive in 5th and 6th gear for transmission temp reasons. Do you do the same? Curious to hear from Mossey on this one too. If true, I assume I should do the same and keep it out of 7th and 8th.

54 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

I suggest that you buy a simple 2” ball mount That will give you an 18” ball height and borrow or rent a good sized utility trailer for a weekend.

Would the factory Toyota mount work?

PN: PT22860084
DROP: 4 1/5"
LOAD RATING (BALL): 9000 lbs
RISE: 3"

Good call on the utility trailer for a weekend!

I really appreciate both of you taking the time to respond. The LC doesn't seem like an ideal towing option but you both have given me some hope that we can actually pull it off! 😀

[John E Davies]

12 psi brings it level and it tows fine, no need to go higher with the Andersen. I am pretty sure the Firestone bags are rated at 30 psi max, but I may be wrong. 

You MUST tow in Sport Mode, not Drive, and I also suggest the Power setting, if your truck has this feature. Power raises the shift points a little. There is no Tow/ Haul mode, as such. One former 200 owner here was having serious issues with excessive downshifting “all the time” and with the transmission overheating. He was also towing his LE2 in D at 75 mph. You need to stay out of the two overdrive gears all the time, except for long descents when you can bump it higher, as long as the transmission doesn’t keep trying to downshift, essentially coasting is OK. You want the tranny to stay in gear and not keep hopping around. These engines make power at a relatively high rpm (peak torque is 2800) and you need to let them rev, downshifting and climbing a steep mountain at 4500 rpm or more is fine and won’t hurt a thing. It provides way more drivetrain cooling this way. You can’t lug it like a diesel. On hilly terrain, in headwinds or up high with your 8 speed, you may even want to use 5 instead of 6, just keep the engine spinning and happy. Be ready to over ride the computer, use the manual selection. It works well. For my truck with 33 inch tires and 6 speed tranny, 62 mph/ 2500 rpm in 4 is the sweet spot.

I don’t think the 200 is a very wise choice for towing, there are many other trucks that will work a whole lot better. But It does OK pulling an LE2, and the rest of the time it is a superb all around vehicle with that ultimate build quality and back country reliability. I would not suggest that somebody go out and buy a 200 just for towing. That would be a pretty big mistake.

Don’t buy that Toyota ball mount, unless heavily discounted it is a waste. You should be able to find it at about $45. That page does not list the ball size, it should be 2”. Or just get a similar sized one from a decent aftermarket brand and a 2” chrome ball, both rated at 7500 pounds. A deadweight mount is useful anyway, for pulling the trailer out of its storage position (indoors, under a carport) to wash it or work on it, without having to connect the Andersen. And of course it works fine for the occasional rental trailer for a load of lumber or bark....
 

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited July 25, 2020 by John E Davies

[Jairon]

Thanks, John. You're a wealth of information. Oliver should put you on the payroll! 😂

The mount came with the car surprisingly. The car also has the ECT PWR button for shift point adjustment. Once I get the trailer on the road, I'll post my average temps here for anyone that might be interested.

Thanks again!

 

[mossemi]

Once again Professor JD comes through with his in-depth knowledge.

I did forget to say that I ran the stock tires towing the Oliver until it was time to replace them and they were soft and a very sweet ride.  I added the Timbren SES while still running the stock tires and that improved the towing experience, but the every day ride suffered.  I then replaced them with Michelin Defender LTX M/S tires which improve the towing a little more, but the daily ride again deteriorated.

I do believe that whichever tow vehicle a trailer owner chooses is a comprise between what you what to drive and what you need to drive.  I would be first in line to say any full size pickup truck would be a better TV than the LC200.  But in my house the War Department is in charge of the appropriations.  And she doesn’t like pickup trucks.  We do like Toyota products, so my choices were limited and a used LC200 was the default choice.  I am happy with it and it does it’s job.

We live in Florida and have only ventured west into Arkansas with the Ollie, so my towing experience is much different than JD's.  Our 2020 trip to the Pacific NW was cancelled due to Covid-19, so the elevation and MPG challenges will have to wait for another time.  I generally start towing in 4th gear and shift up or down mostly by feel and sound.  I always say that camping is a participation sport and any RV adds another level.  Towing a trailer is different that driving a class A, B or C, so you adjust as needed.  I generally drive with cruise control on the highway and excessive shifting is a sure sign that I’m in the wrong gear.  Experience is an excellent teacher.

Mossey

[John E Davies]

I will just add that if the 200 was available as a long wheelbase model with a little less overhang past the rear axle, it would be MOST excellent for towing an LE2. The Tahoe, Tahoe XL approach.... I would kill for about 18 more inches of interior volume. The new Heritage Edition is a great start. No running boards, no third row, A/T tires. Just stretch it a bit, please, and take my money. You can keep the stupid Yakima storage basket, a purely ornamental “expedition rack” .

Yakima generally has a great warranty but excludes Off road driving – Backroads that are rough, washed out, boulder and rut strewn.
(Smooth gravel roads are not considered off-road). 

Not a great choice for a Land Cruiser specced for those conditions....

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited July 25, 2020 by John E Davies

[bhncb]

If there’s room here for a third prospective, I’ll provide some long-read comments based on experiences towing my LEII with a 2018 LC200, not using the Andersen hitch. 

I also installed the Redarc controller using the Toyota specific bezel. This was my first Redarc and have since installed two more, one of which replaced a prior P3 installation. A great feature of the Elite model is being able to switch between proportional and time delay modes for off-road use. Can’t say enough about these controllers.

Since “weight distribution” wasn’t being used, addressing rear-end sag using either the Timbren SES or airbags was considered:

My attempt to install the Timbrens ran into an interference problem between the upper mounting bracket and coil spring on the driver side. Timbren support had no explanation or solution so I returned the kit. I also didn’t like that the rubber springs would be under constant compression by the axle housing, thus destroying the factory unloaded ride as mossemi has mentioned. What I also noticed is that the TLC 200 already incorporates similar (Timbren rubber spring) technology, as a combined overload spring/rebound bumper inside the rear coils. These however allow for 2-1/2 inches of free travel before they come into play.

Installation of airbags would require cutting out the aforementioned factory overload provision, which are co-molded with the upper spring isolators. For this reason, the airbag option wasn’t considered further because it was counterintuitive to me and would have impacted the Toyota factory warranty. My LC200 was only six months old at this point.

Sag management approach thus far:  Judicious loading of the LC200 and LEII. The very first thing I did to my LC200 was remove the ridiculous third row seats. This provided a sizable gain in usable interior volume and removed sixty pounds or so of dead weight. Extra clothing hangs over the second seat and heaviest items are stowed most forward of the rear axle. Bottle jacks and tools go directly behind the front seats. A rear opening roof-top carrier has been particularly handy for lighter or bulky items. In the LEII, heavy necessities (like beer and ammo) are stowed aft but the tongue basket is usually kept empty.

With regard to tires: I am still running the factory original Dunlop AT23s and have no complaints having towed my LEII 12K miles or so. I run pressures of 38/rear and 35/front with 80 psi in the LEII Michelins, always.  Never once have I felt uncomfortable or even concerned be it light snow at Yellowstone or brutal crosswinds throughout central New Mexico. The only reason I’ll eventually switch, also to the Michelin LTX, is due to availability and better wear performance. If the LTX can get me up to the Medicine Wheel through 8” of fresh snow, and back, I’ll consider them equivalent to the AT23. 

General operation: Not being one who feels the need for speed, maximum cruise is typically 65-70, and I’m not afraid of offending anyone in the mountains. I basically concur with the advice provided by both JD and Mossey. Always Sport mode and ECT Power on, maintaining RPMs between 2 and 3K unless additional required for acceleration or engine braking. Never use 8th, rarely 7th, mostly 6th, occasionally 5th, and 4th – 2nd sometimes for extremes while descending or merging. But, RPM kept below 4500. I almost never use cruise control when towing and my coolant temperature fluctuations have never even been noticeable. 

Andersen hitch: As an early adopter of this system, experience left me a bit soured when it came to decision time for the LEII.  I’ve had every generation and am hopeful the ball jamming problem has been resolved. My main issue is still it’s limited weight transfer ability. The additional aggravation just isn’t offset by its capabilities. That said, I may still try it on my LEII just to see what affect it has with my particular setup.

I’m kind of in Jairon’s camp when it comes to pickups. Truck are for hay and horse trailers, and we use them for such. Extra space is nice to have, but our traveling enjoyment with the LEII requires a more “proper” tow vehicle. For this purpose, the LC200 has been near perfect.  How’s that for snobbery?  
 

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, bhncb said:

I run pressures of 38/rear and 35/front with 80 psi in the LEII Michelins, always.  
 

I ran with 80 psi in the Dunlops that came with my trailer for the first year.  I’ve reduced that to 55 psi, I think it gives a smoother ride for the trailer and I haven’t noticed any increase in tire temperature or unusual wear.

1 hour ago, bhncb said:

I’m kind of in Jairon’s camp when it comes to pickups. Truck are for hay and horse trailers, and we use them for such. Extra space is nice to have, but our traveling enjoyment with the LEII requires a more “proper” tow vehicle. For this purpose, the LC200 has been near perfect.  How’s that for snobbery?  
 

It’s OK to be a snob!  We all have snob issues, vehicle, wine, music, etc.  TV’s reflect, to some degree, the way we camp and travel.  Lots of Q7’s, Touaregs, LC200s, etc.  I have an Audi S3 that is pretty quick (0-60 in 4.5 secs), has the magnetic suspension and all the other speed and handling gizmos.  I tend to choose to drive my Rebel over the S3 more and more.  Maybe in my advancing age I’m coming to appreciate the comfort and “luxury” that new pickups provide.  Plus I can throw a bunch of camping gear under the tonneau cover.  I know it could do hay pretty well, too! 😆

[mossemi]

7 hours ago, bhncb said:

If there’s room here for a third prospective, I’ll provide some long-read comments based on experiences towing my LEII with a 2018 LC200, not using the Andersen hitch. 

Since “weight distribution” wasn’t being used, addressing rear-end sag using either the Timbren SES or airbags was considered:

What I also noticed is that the TLC 200 already incorporates similar (Timbren rubber spring) technology, as a combined overload spring/rebound bumper inside the rear coils. These however allow for 2-1/2 inches of free travel before they come into play.

When I installed the Timbren SES kit, the original rubber snowmen were resting on the axle also.  A call to Timbren resulted in a shorter set of snowmen at my door, and that created about 3/8" of clearance.  I will admit to overloading the backend enough to make that gap disappear on occasion without towing.

The very first thing I did to my LC200 was remove the ridiculous third row seats.

It wasn’t the first thing I did, but maybe the third or fourth.  And where the heck do you store those seats.  It’s a shame there isn’t a market for them.

For this purpose, the LC200 has been near perfect.  How’s that for snobbery? 
I didn’t notice anymore snobbery than the Chevy, GMC, Ford or Ram guy’s exhibit on occasion and a lot less the those 3/4 ton guy’s.

🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈

Mossey

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by mossemi

[Landrover]

9 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

I ran with 80 psi in the Dunlops that came with my trailer for the first year.  I’ve reduced that to 55 psi, I think it gives a smoother ride for the trailer and I haven’t noticed any increase in tire temperature or unusual wear.

It’s OK to be a snob!  We all have snob issues, vehicle, wine, music, etc.  TV’s reflect, to some degree, the way we camp and travel.  Lots of Q7’s, Touaregs, LC200s, etc.  I have an Audi S3 that is pretty quick (0-60 in 4.5 secs), has the magnetic suspension and all the other speed and handling gizmos.  I tend to choose to drive my Rebel over the S3 more and more.  Maybe in my advancing age I’m coming to appreciate the comfort and “luxury” that new pickups provide.  Plus I can throw a bunch of camping gear under the tonneau cover.  I know it could do hay pretty well, too! 😆

👍🏼 2500 HD Chevy duramax  diesel crew cab 4x4 Hoorah 

[Mike and Carol]

My Ram Rebel is the best!  But if I get a 3/4 ton diesel it will be even more best!! 😎

[bhncb]

16 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

I ran with 80 psi in the Dunlops that came with my trailer for the first year.  I’ve reduced that to 55 psi, I think it gives a smoother ride for the trailer and I haven’t noticed any increase in tire temperature or unusual wear.

My max psi decision for the trailer tires is based on some tire engineer advice when using LT tires in a scrub axle application. I realize it's debatable but seems to make sense to me so I'm sticking with it for now. I will be switching to ST tires when the time comes but only if a comparable 16" size becomes available. No complaint from the LEII and things inside have stayed put so far. I did get rid of the Dexter Ez flex equalizers but can't say definitively that this has improved the ride.

 

Maybe in my advancing age I’m coming to appreciate the comfort and “luxury” that new pickups provide.  Plus I can throw a bunch of camping gear under the tonneau cover.  I know it could do hay pretty well, too!

No aversions here but I'm probably a lot older and vehicle height has become a serious issue. I always carry a step stool and sometimes a small ladder for the trucks without running boards.  Luxury and comfort is for sure but the overall size of new pickups is out of control. All that mass and relatively little payload. If it comes to a point where a 2500  something is needed to tow the LEII I'm afraid my days are over.             

 

[bhncb]

For some reason I can't quote mossemi's last comments but...

As far as storage for the rear seats: I'm fortunate enough to have places for thing like that and don't like to irreversibly destroy equipment. At some point someone else may want them reinstalled.