2020-21 HD Trucks

[topgun2]

With the current state of things I would think that the automotive industry is going to try very hard to move product for at least the next 4 to 6 weeks.  However, if assembly plants continue to shut down, that will limit the amount of new product on the market which might stabilize product prices or even increase them.  Like you, I'd be playing a waiting game at present but I'd also be very prepared to make a move when the right deal came along.

Bill

[BackofBeyond]

If I were in the market - its hands down a 2500 GMC - I have enjoyed my current one more than I could have imagined. I can see me replacing it in a few years - same thing - like that 10 speed. I actually don't need (or care about)  adj pedals, and a good portion of the other adjustable BS. But it comes with most of it, unfortunately. 

Good hunting.

[WhatDa]

We rented an F250 XLT and test drove a 2500 and 1500 GMC Duramax.

The GMC trucks both had much better turning radii and way better ride unladen than the ford.  I got 16MPG on the 2500 and 21 MPG on the 1500 on our little test run of going down a freeway exit and back.  That's not quite enough to make that difference enough to choose one vs the other.

What really blew us both away, was the quality of the cameras in the GMC products vs the Ford cameras (both in the Navigator and F250).  

Wife decided that even without adjustable pedals she can see best out of the 2500, 1500, and then F250 in that order.  Somehow these were all also easier to drive than the Navigator.

So now it's really between the Chevrolet/GM 1500 or 2500/3500.  Biggest discriminator is adaptive cruise is high on my list of things that kill the monotony on a long day.  We'll see if any dealer desperate to make a deal at the end of the month, otherwise we'll see what GM throws on the table for May.

[katanapilot]

On 4/1/2020 at 8:58 AM, BackofBeyond said:

A 2500 rated diesel Toyota 4wd, would be something I would take a look at, but it seems more a pipe dream. 

With a few suspension updates, you can have that today.  A little pricey, though.  https://dieseltoys.com/tundra-diesel

I have wanted a later model Land Cruiser 6 speed manual diesel for years.

[Overland]

6 hours ago, WhatDa said:

We rented an F250 XLT and test drove a 2500 and 1500 GMC Duramax.

The GMC trucks both had much better turning radii and way better ride unladen than the ford.  I got 16MPG on the 2500 and 21 MPG on the 1500 on our little test run of going down a freeway exit and back.  That's not quite enough to make that difference enough to choose one vs the other.

What really blew us both away, was the quality of the cameras in the GMC products vs the Ford cameras (both in the Navigator and F250).  

Wife decided that even without adjustable pedals she can see best out of the 2500, 1500, and then F250 in that order.  Somehow these were all also easier to drive than the Navigator.

So now it's really between the Chevrolet/GM 1500 or 2500/3500.  Biggest discriminator is adaptive cruise is high on my list of things that kill the monotony on a long day.  We'll see if any dealer desperate to make a deal at the end of the month, otherwise we'll see what GM throws on the table for May.

I’d think things like the camera system will be better on whichever model is most recent, which is the GM now.  Ford has a big update coming this year, so keep that in mind, provided you’re willing to wait. But I heard that Ford is moving to first of the year updates rather than than fall, so it may be 9 months or so before they’re out.  I know that they’ve got a much larger center display and new dash electronics so new cameras could be in the mix. And on the raptor at least, they’re switching to a coil spring rear end. 
On the ride quality, be sure you’re comparing apples to apples since any ¾ ton truck is going to be much harsher than a half ton. 
That said, I don’t think you can go wrong with either. I think the new GMCs are really nice trucks. 

[BackofBeyond]

7 hours ago, WhatDa said:

 

The GMC trucks both had much better turning radii and way better ride unladen than the ford.  I got 16MPG on the 2500 and 21 MPG on the 1500 on our little test run of going down a freeway exit and back.  That's not quite enough to make that difference enough to choose one vs the other.

 

I had similar thoughts during my test drives, as I thought the ford was the truck I would purchase. However a full day of back to back drives, almost comical, really,  the GMC was just better in the unladen ride aspect. I also liked the interior, it was more comfortable, it seemed. In the end I don't believe you could go wrong with either.

MY only concern going forward is the lack of build time in the factories - GM had a strike, and now this Covid shutdown. There will be a limited number of product in the field, and a short product cycle. I understand your in the need in the short run, but I would bet the 2021's will be a better time to buy. Perhaps the shear lack of business will drive the current prices down. 

Good luck in your hunt.

RB 

[WhatDa]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

On the ride quality, be sure you’re comparing apples to apples since any ¾ ton truck is going to be much harsher than a half ton. 
 

We went back to back F250 to 2500 and it was a pretty remarkable difference.  What really sold me was the steering just felt more precise and intuitive.  The 2500 felt easier to hold a line through a sweeping curve than the 250.  If anything the 2500 was closer to the Navigator than the 250 in steering.  Maybe the Ford just needs an alignment? It's a rental with only 1200 miles on it though.  With the Oliver on the back of the 250 it did ride better, but still not as good as the 2500 without the Oliver.

I know the F150 has an update just around the corner and have seen the previews, but then just after that the Tundra has an update around the corner, and then the Cyber Truck comes out (I have an early reservation for that).  There are rumors that the 2021 Silverado/Sierra will get the cockpit of the new Tahoe/Suburban with trailer blindspot, wireless carplay, and other stuff.    If I hadn't sold the Lincoln I'd probably wait, but I don't want to miss a summer of travels only to have Ford be MIA/late/still under payload on the Diesel 150. 

The math on the Silverado LTZ+Tech we were looking at shows 600 lbs of payload left after us and the Oliver are attached so it would be workable.  That still leaves up for guessing if the rear axle reserve would be enough and how the overall towing experience would differ between the two - the fact that I would never need to worry about weight or adjusting the chains on the Andersen does have its perks.

[Overland]

I know what you mean about the steering on the F series.  It seems to me like they try to overcompensate for the harshness at the back by making the front suspension too soft, at least on the 150s.  I thought the 250s felt more balanced, if overall much harsher.  One thing it could have been is tire pressure - dealers are notorious about not checking them when they come off the truck. 

[DavePhelps]

Kind of late to this party but I have enjoyed reading everyone's thought processes regarding these trucks.

Yet another option to consider is the F-150 with the Heavy Duty Payload Package (HDPP).
The only potential drawback for some is that it is not available above the XLT model.

With the Max Trailer Tow option, it comes with the 3.5 ecoboost engine.
HDPP gets the payload up to around 2400 lbs. It comes with 18" LT, C load rated tires, along with other desirable upgrades.

I also learned recently that Transferflow makes a 50 gallon gas replacement tank for the F-150, so that should help with range! I wish they made one for the F250 as well.... Lots of options for diesel tank upgrades but few for gas.

I never knew it could be so hard shopping for a truck!

Dave

[WhatDa]

The HDPP F150 is quite the truck.  It's not only XLT only, but XLT mid or below (501a).  Thanks Ford.  No 502a package means no blind spot monitor, no powerscope mirrors, no 360 camera (must have for wife), etc.. IF you don't care about those features, then it's probably the best 1/2 ton for towing.  On the other hand, without those features I might just get a 2007 Chevy 3500 Duramax instead. Maybe the 2021 will come out with something I'd like...

 

[DavePhelps]

Yes it's a real bummer that Ford limits the HDPP only up to mid XLT trimmed trucks. I would love to have LED headlights and some of the other options you mentioned. I guess Ford wants folks to buy the F250 Lariat Ultimate or above trims if they want capability and some extra safety and comfort options. That Transferflow 50 gallon replacement tank for the F150 really has me thinking though. We'll see if Ford opens up their restrictions on the 2021 HDPP. They used to offer it for the Lariat in 2018....

Dave
 

 

[WhatDa]

We spent a little more time with the options.  

* Wife says she can see best out of the options in this order: GM HD, Ford Super Duty with adjustable pedals, and GM 1500s.  I think she just likes driving a huge truck 🙂

* The highest payload for the 1500 (with tech+diesel) is in the Chevy LTZ - Found one with 1600lbs..  GMC only offers the diesel in the AT4 (100lbs less GVWR) and Denali (many heavy options, and often come fully loaded with ultimate package).

* Between the Chevy and GM HD: we prefer the GM based on the front end look, the amber side markers (more visible in the PNW gloom), and the multipro tailgate is the easiest to use step out there.   If we got a crazy deal on the Chevy, we'd probably be fine with that too.

* GM HD trucks in the 2500 series are actually very usable.  CCSB has a GVWR of 11,350 lbs (whereas most 3/4 tons top out at 10k).  Our example was in the mid 3000s of payload with a Diesel.  The 3500 CCSB is 12,100 lbs GVWR.  So it does give some extra headroom, but it isn't as necessary as Ford/RAM where the 2500 diesels may be under 2000lbs of payload.

* Within the GMC line (SLE->SLT->AT4->Denali) we like the AT4's appearance the best.  In the HD line the AT4 doesn't actually have anything above the SLT X31 or Denali in terms of offroad prowess - same ride height, springs, hill descent, tires, etc...  What the AT4 does have is a chrome delete which makes me a fan.   Seems other people agree as the AT4 has no rebates, but the SLT and Denali do.  End result? Denalis are cheaper than AT4s.

* Generally we prefer lighter colored vehicles for visibility, but the AT4 does look good in black, but the white storm trooper look is also nice.

 

 

But at this point, it's cheaper to buy a Denali and swap in the AT4 grill.  But, since I am cheapo I'll probably just get an SLT+Tech+X31 and call it a day.

 

When I find my first elk or deer, it'll be time to swap.

 

[WhatDa]

With any luck we’ll be picking up a 2500 this weekend. Any thoughts on getting a new 2.5” ball mount for the Anderson vs maybe getting a dead weight hitch?  B&w makes an adjustable one that will play nice with the Fancy tailgate when the ball is flipped Forward. I generally remove the ball mount once we drop the trailer. 
 

[underdug]

WhatDA

We bought a 2019 2500 Duramax, and looked at several hitches. We settled on the B&W. This hitch has performed flawlessly and I lam beyond happy with it.

I have the triple and have a use for all 3 balls, it has saved my shins lots of times in fold away mode. I also wanted to use Rock Tamers and not all hitches will have enough length on the receiver to mount them. We do not have the WDH and do not feel it is necessary on a 3/4 ton truck, we have never had the Ollie sway an inch. The 5 inch drop is all you should need.  

[WhatDa]

I have the full andersen setup already, and didn't really feel it was necessary when we were towing with the F-250, but the Andersen ball mount is $135 and maybe the extra sway control would be worth it?  The B&W is $350, but like Underdug says I do have the ability to switch between 1 7/8, 2, and 2 5/16ths at will. The B&W looks refined, but the Andersen does look like it is reinforced a little more.  I'll have to take a look at which might be able to fit a towtector too.

https://www.bwtrailerhitches.com/product/multipro-tow-stow

https://andersenhitches.com/Products/3399--wdez-hd-8-droprise-adjustable-rack--212-shank.aspx

[John E Davies]

For a while Andersen sold Plus 3 inch ball mounts (stingers). I bought one when I switched from a Ram 3500 to my Land Cruiser 200, to allow clearance at the tailgate. I am not sure if they still sell them, I heard they had stopped. The extra shank would be useful if you wanted to mount a big rock guard. I had a Rock Tamer there for a while, and now I have a Stone Stomper, the bar bracket takes a little less space.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[WhatDa]

I was looking at the stone stomper and it looks like they have some that mount to the upper holes in and adjustable rack. That or maybe getting a towtector rugged the same might be the ticket. 

[John E Davies]

The standard Stone Stomper stinger-mounted bar works fine, as long as you have a couple of inches for it. Mine has bolt on arms, instead of one piece, and I ordered an extra set of bars in case I bent one. So far that has not happened 😁

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by John E Davies

[WhatDa]

 

I'm thinking if I can get something to mount to the top one or two holes it should work.  Sent a mail to stone stomper and towtector to see what they come up with.

[WhatDa]

Continued from the for sale thread:

 

15 hours ago, Mike and Carol said:

Interesting.  Trucks have been selling in Texas since this virus thing started.   I had my new Rebel serviced today so I walked the lot and saw a lot of nicely optioned 1500 and 2500’s.  

As part the WA stay home, stay safe.  Only service and parts were allowed to be open (and appointment only there, no waiting in lobby).  The exception is sales could open for 1 customer at a time that fit specific gates, on an appointment only basis.

Quote

Are closing a transaction that was pending with a dealer on or before March 23, 2020.
Are an "Essential Critical Infrastructure Worker" listed at this link and do not have other means of transportation. 
Are replacing a totaled vehicle or a damaged vehicle that is impractical to repair.
Are extending a lease that expires. 

So that brought sales to a near halt as a result, and made test drives near impossible.  Some dealers aren't even doing the above deals and just laid everyone in Sales off, except for a few to keep customers warm for a post-covid reopening which is now just starting to happen.  Some dealers that have stock refuse to discount, since we're almost at 2 months of factory shutdowns.  I searched within 1000 miles, with a preference for 500 so I could do an out and back kind of day.   Dealers that had good deals had dwindling stock, the ones that were still there had aftermarket lifts, or accessory wheels and stuff that drove up the price, or they were the commercial market stripped trucks.  There are plenty of dealers that did have stock, but based on the VIN they were some of the first 2020 GM HDs made, and probably have sat on the lot forever. 

We ended up getting the last of the super-discounted GMC Sierra 2500HDs (we would have loved a 3500HD, but this was the better deal and still has enough payload for the Ollie+our stuff+SxS on the bed) from Dennis Dillon and got good money on our car for trade.  Ours was made in March before the shutdown.  There are limited GM HDs near us with VIN#s as high now, and certainly not many with the aggressive discounting we received.  Given that GM's production is going to be slow to start (they need the parts chain moving too), we may see limited 2020 trucks built - probably enough to fill any sold orders - before they setup for 2021's trucks.

We also looked at buying from further away, but WA is a CARB state and the GM trucks aren't 50 state, so we had to find one that had WA/CA emissions -- so this locked us out of some of the other volume dealers across the US.

[John E Davies]

25 minutes ago, WhatDa said:

We ended up getting the last of the super-discounted GMC Sierra 2500HDs (we would have loved a 3500HD, but this was the better deal and still has enough payload for the Ollie+our stuff+SxS on the bed) from Dennis Dillon and got good money on our car for trade. 

That is a very interesting story, can you please elaborate about your Dillon experience? I have never dealt with them but they do have the most aggressive advertised pricing in the country, from what I have been able to determine. They sure beat the pants off many of the big volume “super dealers” like Dave Smith in north Idaho. And 90% of Dillon’s sales are Internet and fly in/ drive home.

How was your transaction?

John Davies

Spokane WA

[WhatDa]

36 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

 

How was your transaction?

 

 

Hi John,

The advertised price was what I paid, plus a very generous trade allowance.  Dealers that were asking for $10k more on the truck were offering $3k less on the trade.  They matched what someone local was going to pay, which saved me ~4k in WA taxes for the trade reduction.  I filled out their form, my salesman (Cesar) was very responsive over the phone and got everything worked out for me.  Since we live in East King County (high COVID prevelence) and I have vulnerable family members, I didn't want any contact so it would be safe to them and safe to me.  I hit the road at first dawn, and drove out to Boise.  They had all the paperwork ready and in the new truck, so I pulled up next to my  new truck, put my keys to my trade on the dash board, and transferred my stuff.  Paperwork was waiting for me in the new truck, I filled it out and they processed it.  Zero contact.  There was a bit of a wait but nothing unreasonable compared to elsewhere.  I was home at dusk and just completed my break in miles as I crossed the Cascades.

To get their advertised price, they do require you to take their financing and not pay it off for 6 months.  I'll accrue about 600$ of interest in that time if I don't do any extra payments.  The lender they paired me with allows early paydowns (not all of them do), so I can pay off 90%+ as soon as I get an account number and then I'll see hardly any interest accruals (like $70).   Their rate is about 1% higher than my credit union is advertising - so even if you don't have the cash to pay down the 90%, it's still not a bad deal.  The delta in price between them and Smith was ~$6k.  $12k from the local dealer with old stock and not the options we want.  Both local and Smith had similar MSRP.  For Chevrolet, Peterson had the best price - close to DD - we like the multipro, fender lights, and interior color scheme better on the GMC so went with DD.  So the interest I would accrue if I didn't pay down the loan, is still an order of magnitude less than the savings, which I think are still incumbent on their finance or GM's financing which could have been a worse deal.  I could always refinance in 6 months as well.  I'll probably pay down as I'm not expecting investments to turn amazing returns for a little bit.  Would do business with them again for sure.  It does seem that most the trucks they order come with the CARB emissions.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by WhatDa

[John E Davies]

Thanks for the long comment on Dennis Dillon. Do you have any info on their pricing for a special order truck? I have been looking at Power Wagons for many years, I want one with all the trailer tech and a nice set of luxury features, but no fancy stereo, no fancy nav, no sunroof, no Ram boxes, no weird tailgate, no exterior decals. That is a hard combination to find on a dealer lot, in a color I like....

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited May 15, 2020 by John E Davies

[WhatDa]

I looked at special ordering and was in that process before the shutdown.  For the Rams it was about 15% off MSRP - but I think it was that+any extra rebates that come out between order and delivery.  I emailed them and it was pretty easy.  I didn't get any calls from salespeople.  For my RAM build, I went on ramtrucks.com and built to my spec, saved the last page as a PDF and emailed it to them.

The no fancy stereo thing is the hard part on RAM, as the 12" doesn't add any functionality and seems more buggy, but many of the ones on lots have them.   Sunroof is the same (and I ended up with one on my Sierra unfortunately).

The PW looks like fun, but for the real trails around here a 60" or even 50" SxS lthat fits between the trees and blackberry bushes much better than the shiny paint on a new truck. 10+" of travel, and a much tighter turning radius for the switchbacks on some logging roads.  Now I have enough payload to carry one on the bed along with the Oliver on the bumper... 

 

[Mike and Carol]

8 hours ago, WhatDa said:

The no fancy stereo thing is the hard part on RAM, as the 12" doesn't add any functionality and seems more buggy, but many of the ones on lots have them.   Sunroof is the same (and I ended up with one on my Sierra unfortunately).

 

The 12” display is nice. We’ve grown to really like it. I usually split it and have my iPhone (CarPlay) on top with a map and media on the bottom. The Nav that came with it is useless, out of date on day 1.  We didn’t want the sunroof and wouldn’t get it again but it’s been nice on occasion.  Mike