Boondocking Generator Questions

[ChrisMI]

I was told Oliver did not add a Victron Multiplus when they switched to the solar controller because of space constraints. However, one huge advantage Victron has over the competition is the ability share the sources of power at all times. It can pull from the generator, solar, and batteries to easily power the AC.  This would allow a small generator to be used while shallow cycling the batteries. 

[SeaDawg]

@ChrisMI,  my understanding is the multiplex (which we don't have, boat or trailer) is a hybrid. It figures out what you need for "extra, " and goes from there.

I'm not sure many owners could understand,  or take advantage of it, but it's a really nice system,  from what I have read. 

I could "possibly " use it on our boat, but our very infrequent connection to shore power would probably render it useless.  Probably, ditto the trailer. 

It is , however, a very interesting concept.

Much of the investment depends on  your camping/shore power practices, imo.

 For users, half time shore power, maybe a different story. 

 

[bbrault]

On 9/5/2022 at 1:39 PM, John E Davies said:

This is incorrect for all brands of lithium RV batteries.

 

John

Thank you for this graph. 
It’s interesting to see that in an ideal situation you would get say 2000 full recharge or 4000 half re-charge etc… 

It is indeed much better than what I expected but again this is ideal.  I remember that my first LED Cree lights were also supposed to last much longer than what I actually got out of them. 
 

But for my intended use, it means that those batteries should last me a very long time. 
 

Now that I know this, going back to my 1600W Generator question. I now think that I could run my AC from my inverter and feed my generator to only charge the batteries. 
 

Ideally, my generator should complement the Inverters but that implies that the inverter AC is 60Hz in-phase with the generator. 
That’s how a home Solar system would work but its probably not how it works for the 2023 Oliver  

I wouldn’t be so picky is I could just buy a Honda 2200 and put in in the front basket. That’s not an option and I am already making huge compromises on storage getting an Olivier. 

 

 

 

 

[ScubaRx]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:18 PM, Rivernerd said:

Good to know. 

Since Oliver can't install a Micro Air Easy Start in a Truma Aventa Eco air conditioner, does anyone know how much generator wattage is required to start it up?

OK, a further search gleaned this nugget: "...Truma state that the AC requires 20Amps for start-up..."

It was contained in the next to last response by Peter Toll in this article.

[bbrault]

7 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

OK, a further search gleaned this nugget: "...Truma state that the AC requires 20Amps for start-up..."

It was contained in the next to last response by Peter Toll in this article.

In this case, even the 2000W inverter might struggle!

[Rivernerd]

ScubaRX, thanks for tracking down the "nugget" you cite.  But, it appears to me that the reference is to a 240V (Australian) Truma Aventa Comfort (15Kbtu), not the 120V (USA) Truma Aventa Eco (13.5Kbtu) Oliver will be installing in 2023 models.

Here's the quote from the referenced comment to that 2016 article:  "I’m looking to power a TRUMA Aventa Comfort Mk2 AC with a Cromtech Outback CGT2500i generator that, according to the data above, should be sufficient.
However I’m concerned the start spike input power of the AC will be to high for the generator. Truma state that the AC requires 20Amps for start-up..."

I understand that Truma has just recently re-engineered the Aventa AC models for the US/Canadian 120V market, which includes lower power draw.  So, it appears to me we still don't have a reliable answer to the question:  "How much generator wattage is required to start up the120V, 13.5Kbtu Truma Aventa Eco air conditioners Oliver will be installing in 2023 Elite models?"

bbrault, I still think this is an excellent question for your Oliver sales rep.  Please post the answer you receive!

 

[ScubaRx]

35 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

… But, it appears to me that the reference is to a 240V (Australian) Truma Aventa Comfort (15Kbtu), not the 120V (USA) Truma Aventa Eco (13.5Kbtu) Oliver will be installing in 2023 models...

bbrault, I still think this is an excellent question for your Oliver sales rep.  Please post the answer you receive!

 

I’m sorry that info was little to no help. After I posted it, I wondered to myself if this article was speaking of another model. 

[bbrault]

2 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

bbrault, I still think this is an excellent question for your Oliver sales rep.  Please post the answer you receive!

 

I will be on the phone with my Oliver sales rep to further discuss this as well questions on some of the ordering options. 

I wouldn’t be so picky if a Honda 2200 could fit in the front storage basket of a Legacy I. 

The ability to run the AC from a generator or charge the Lithium batteries not running the AC is critical for how I plan to use my Oliver. 

Worst case is that I could visit the factory and bring along my generator a Smart shunt and figure it out over there. 

[SeaDawg]

3 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

I’m sorry that info was little to no help. After I posted it, I wondered to myself if this article was speaking of another model. 

Well, I  found it interesting,  even if it didn't answer the question. Look how many models Dometic sell in Australia that use inverter technology, and how few (0) they sell in the USA. And, how many can run on small gensets.

Someone more versed than I  can do the math, 'cause mine is quite possibly incorrect, but wouldn't a 2400 watt gen, at 240, use 10 amps, and at 120, 20? (Just an example?). I'd find it difficult to believe that Truma would re-engineer for the American market to require a larger genset than it needs in Australia,  but we'll see.

Looking forward to your updates, @bbrault.

 

[Cameron]

I'm going to take this off on a little tangent, but I think it's relevant to some of the posts.

In hot weather boondocking, I'm using my Lithium Pro package sparingly. For example, after getting back to the Ollie in the afternoon, I'll turn it on to cool down the interior temps, maybe running it for 30 min. Then, while preparing dinner I might run it for another half hour. Then, when getting ready for bed I might run it again for a half hour. This might bring the SOC from 85% down to 55%. Then, the next day, the panels might bring the SOC back up to 75%. Sometimes I'd like to run the AC a bit longer, but, the numbers don't add up. 

So, I'm considering getting a small generator for the main purpose of charging the batteries back up. Basically, to provide a little extra help for the solar panels. I guess if I was camping during cloudy times or short days the generator would also help. I could go with a 1000w generator, nice and small and light, or I could get the 2000w or 2200w which seems to be more popular with folks here. How quickly would a 1000w generator charge up my batteries? Does it make sense to get the 1000w or should I just get the bigger one so I'd have less run time (less noise!). Right now my goal is not to run the AC directly off the generator.

[ScubaRx]

4 hours ago, Cameron said:

I'm going to take this off on a little tangent, but I think it's relevant to some of the posts.

How quickly would a 1000w generator charge up my batteries? Does it make sense to get the 1000w or should I just get the bigger one so I'd have less run time (less noise!). Right now my goal is not to run the AC directly off the generator.

Most folks that have ever met me and seen my setup know that I would never be mistaken for a minimalist. That is very true so I won’t offer you an opinion on how big a generator to buy. 
 

Basically using your numbers from the above post, I will create a scenario from which you should be able to make an informed decision about generator size. I am taking solar out of the equation and discounting all inefficiencies of the equipment. I am also assuming nothing is running except the Progressive Dynamics converter/charger. No lights, no water pump, nothing. 
 

Let’s say you have used 150Ah out of your battery pack and want to replace them using only a generator. A 1000 watt generator putting out 120 volts is connected to your trailer. The 120 volts is fed into the trailer and is used by th PD 4100 series charger which, on the newer trailers, will supply up to 65 amps of charging power to the battery.

A rough estimate of time to fully replace the 150 amps is 2-3 hours. Buying a larger generator won’t accomplish this any faster, BUT it would allow you the convenience of running other things at the same time as charging OR perhaps just using it to run the AC. Which is a much more efficient way to run the AC anyway. 

[SeaDawg]

Buying the slightly heavier 2000 or 2200 could possibly allow you to run your ac. And, it's actually more useful, at home, in a power outage . I can still lift either, in my senior years.

I "think" it will allow you to charge  your lithium a bit faster. With proper settings. Since I don't have lithium, I'll leave it to others to decide. With more watts, you should get more amps.

Just a thought. 

[ScubaRx]

1 hour ago, SeaDawg said:

I "think" it will allow you to charge  your lithium a bit faster. With proper settings. Since I don't have lithium, I'll leave it to others to decide. With more watts, you should get more amps.

Just a thought. 

You will get more amps from a generator with a greater wattage rating. But those AC amps are not what’s charging your battery and they won’t speed up the process, no matter the type of battery. They are running the PD converter/charger onboard your trailer which is in turn suppling DC amps to the batteries for charging. 

[DBM]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:38 PM, bbrault said:

Sorry, I was referring to the Honda 2200i that won’t fit. 

The specs size I got for the Elite I basket size is 26.75 x 14.375 x 7.75 (L x W x H) in.

I don’t see how you can fit the 2200 or 2 2000. 

You possibly have an Elite II?
 

bbrault,

I recently purchased the Honda EU2200i Companion.  The actual generator size is 20" x 11.4" as stated correctly on the NorthernTool website.  Standard (non-companion) is the exact same size.  So you should have no problem fitting it in your Elite I front basket per your stated dimensions.   I thought maybe you were looking at dimensions of the packaging box which is good bit bigger.

Dave

[Rivernerd]

17 hours ago, DBM said:

I recently purchased the Honda EU2200i Companion.  The actual generator size is 20" x 11.4" as stated correctly on the NorthernTool website.  Standard (non-companion) is the exact same size.  So you should have no problem fitting it in your Elite I front basket per your stated dimensions.   I thought maybe you were looking at dimensions of the packaging box which is good bit bigger.

This appears to be good news, bbrault. 

But, it is known yet whether a 2200 watt inverter/generator will start the Truma Aventa Eco on its own (since Oliver cannot install the Micro Air Easy Start)?

[katanapilot]

Isn't the new Honda EU3000is the same form factor as the 2000/2200?  If so, it might be a solution to the current requirements for startup of the the Truma or Houghton A/C and it would fit in the Elite I basket. It's pricey, but so is an Oliver.

[BBL]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:31 PM, Steve and Deb said:

Anita told us they a soft start option is not needed with the Truma, nor would one be offered as an option with the Truma package. 

I can second this and I made a call to Truma. They confirmed, the Aventa Eco cannot be used with an Easy Start and he added, you won't need it.

Brian

[BBL]

On 9/6/2022 at 8:28 PM, bbrault said:

John

Thank you for this graph. 
It’s interesting to see that in an ideal situation you would get say 2000 full recharge or 4000 half re-charge etc… 

It is indeed much better than what I expected but again this is ideal.  I remember that my first LED Cree lights were also supposed to last much longer than what I actually got out of them. 
 

But for my intended use, it means that those batteries should last me a very long time. 
 

Now that I know this, going back to my 1600W Generator question. I now think that I could run my AC from my inverter and feed my generator to only charge the batteries. 
 

Ideally, my generator should complement the Inverters but that implies that the inverter AC is 60Hz in-phase with the generator. 
That’s how a home Solar system would work but its probably not how it works for the 2023 Oliver  

I wouldn’t be so picky is I could just buy a Honda 2200 and put in in the front basket. That’s not an option and I am already making huge compromises on storage getting an Olivier. 

 

 

 

 

Have you considered a Dual-Fuel Inverter Generator?  I have a 2500-Watt Dual Fuel Inverter with CO Shield® and it delivers nicely on the power but is still very compact and quiet. 

 

Brian

[SeaDawg]

23 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

You will get more amps from a generator with a greater wattage rating. But those AC amps are not what’s charging your battery and they won’t speed up the process, no matter the type of battery. They are running the PD converter/charger onboard your trailer which is in turn suppling DC amps to the batteries for charging. 

Do the newer trailers still have a progressive dynamics converter/charger? I'm asking, as I thought the xantrex pro took the place of the pd, which we have, in our older trailer. (On our boat, we have an older version of Xantrex for charging. )

I thought,  could be wrong,  adjustments could be made, especially for the higher acceptance of lithium, with the xantrex.

I'll talk to my friend in the yacht world. Tomorrow. 

I don't have lithium, just thinking about it, and what we might need to change.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

 

[Rivernerd]

5 hours ago, katanapilot said:

Isn't the new Honda EU3000is the same form factor as the 2000/2200?

The EU3000is is 22" x 17.6".  The EU2200i is 20"x 11.4". 

The EU2000i will apparently fit in the Elite front basket, which is 26.75" x 14.375" x 7.75" (L x W x H).  The EU 3000is will not fit.

[Rivernerd]

5 hours ago, Brian and Brandelyne Lewis said:

the Aventa Eco cannot be used with an Easy Start and [the Truma rep] added, you won't need it.

Was the Truma rep specifically asked about running the Truma Aventa Eco with a generator with only a 1600 continuous watt rating (i.e., enough to meet regular electrical demand, as the Truma Aventa Eco draws 10.8A on high, which equates to 1296 watts at 120V)?

 

[ScubaRx]

4 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Do the newer trailers still have a progressive dynamics converter/charger?

Yes they do. I called the factory yesterday to see how the batteries are charged on the new trailers. They said it was the same set up as it always was. This is where your 120V breakers and 12 V fuses are. 

Apparently, the Xantrex inverter/charger comes into play also as it functions as a combination of an inverter, battery charger and transfer switch in one complete system. When AC power is available, the inverter/charger recharges the house batteries. It also allows any surplus AC power to pass through and power downstream AC loads, such as a television set or microwave oven. When AC power is disconnected, the unit inverts DC battery power into AC electricity.

Trailers that have a front generator hook up port in addition to the standard side port also have a transfer switch to determine whether the outside power is coming from a generator or from shore. The default is generator. 
 

It would take some testing to see how the two transfer switches act when used together. 

[katanapilot]

8 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

The EU3000is is 22" x 17.6".  The EU2200i is 20"x 11.4". 

The EU2000i will apparently fit in the Elite front basket, which is 26.75" x 14.375" x 7.75" (L x W x H).  The EU 3000is will not fit.

I misstated the generator in question - it's the new EU3200i. 22.5" long, 12.0" wide, 17.8" high. Won't that fit?

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, katanapilot said:

I misstated the generator in question - it's the new EU3200i. 22.5" long, 12.0" wide, 17.8" high. Won't that fit?

Looks like the EU3200i will fit in a Legacy Elite front basket.  Impressive, at 59 lbs. and 58 db.

[John E Davies]

1 hour ago, Rivernerd said:

Looks like the EU3200i will fit in a Legacy Elite front basket.  Impressive, at 59 lbs. and 58 db.

It has truly impressive specs, but the cost is excessive and I personally would wait for that to come down and for the inevitable design bugs to be fixed….. I have had a few Honda products and I think their quality is on the decline. They sometimes make improvements that make the product look better but the actual usability isn’t as good. My old HRX mower got tired after 14 years and I replaced it with an essentially identical one. They got rid of the manual choke, so now it takes five pulls to start from cold. The last one took one pull, even after six months storage. I have a new Acura car and I read all kinds of complaints, for example exploding rear hatch glass, about how the quality is just no long there. My 2010 TL was reliable as a rock. Don’t fall for the Honda Quality hype. I quite like my Yamaha generator.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/honda-shockingly-falls-dependability-jd-power-study-shows/

My RDX is a PMC limited edition and it was hand assembled by “master techs” on the NSX super car production line, so it should be more reliable, fingers crossed…

John Davies

Spokane WA