Low water pressure in bathroom

[Lisa Rae]

I've searched through the forums here and have seen this topic come up and either fizzle out with no answer/resolution posted or a resolution that I've tried and it has not fixed my problem.  I'll start with some background on my situation.  I purchased a 2008 Elite back in 2021 and had it for almost 2 years and loved it and never had a problem with it but  just wanted more room so I purchased a 2016 Elite II in March of 2023.  Ever since I got it I never felt the water pressure in the bathroom (whether on city water or using the fresh water tank with the pump)  was that great for the sink and the toilet.  It seemed to get worse as time went on and maybe it was my imagination but I felt the kitchen sink and outside faucet didn't have the same amount of pressure anyone.  I did find a leak in the back of the outside faucet and just replaced the entire box and that fixed that issue but not the issue in the bathroom.

In the basement storage area I found the water pressure regulator and back flow valves and took them out and soaked them in white vinegar for a few hours.  This seemed to help the kitchen and outside faucet but not the bathroom.  I would recommend everyone do this every couple of years because there was a fair amount of build up on these and they really weren't that hard to get to. 

So next I took the sprayer off the faucet and soaked the entire handle in white vinegar for a few hours and put it back on and there wasn't any improvement.  With the sprayer disconnected from the hose water flowed from the hose ok but not great, but never having seen it flowing from there before under perfect conditions I don't know for sure. 

I double checked the toilet again and it was still slow to fill.  I checked to make sure the valve was fully opened and there were no kinks in water line to it.  I did finally notice there is water pressure regulator on the back of the toilet, I don't remember having one on my previous Oliver but I also never had a water problem with it so that night be why I don't remember it.  Is/was this standard equipment on a 2016 or is it an addon by one of the previous owners?  I have not tried to adjust it yet, not even sure it is adjustable hoping someone here can tell me. (excuse the mess, I didn't realize until just now how dirty the floor behind the toilet is)

  

 

  Next I tried filling the fresh water tank and using the water pump to be sure it wasn't just an issue with city water.  Below is a video of the kitchen sink running and you can hear the pump running smoothly and then cut off when I turn the water off then it switches to the bathroom sink and you can see the water pulsing and hear the water pump surging, That pulsing/surging doesn't seem normal to me but I have no frame of reference, I'm hoping someone can tell if that's normal or not. 

 

 

The next things I am planning to try are pulling the cartridge from the faucet and soaking it in white vinegar or just replacing it, and putting on a new faucet head just incase the original one was just too clogged for soaking it to help.

Have I missed anything?  Any suggestions on what I might try next. 

[Jason Foster]

In the video you included, I have the same water pressure in the bathroom as you have in your kitchen sink, so definitely not normal.  You might have kink in a hose somewhere.

[Lisa Rae]

@Jason FosterThank you for commenting and kinda confirming that's not normal.  I have tried to find a kink but the hot and cold lines seem to be hidden on the street side from the basement to the sink but it doesn't mean there isn't a kink I just can't see it. 

[Jason Foster]

13 minutes ago, Lisa Rae said:

@Jason FosterThank you for commenting and kinda confirming that's not normal.  I have tried to find a kink but the hot and cold lines seem to be hidden on the street side from the basement to the sink but it doesn't mean there isn't a kink I just can't see it. 

Let's assume there is not a kink since that would likely be the worst outcome and would have been observed by the prior owner as well as OTT.  The next thing I would look at is more clogs.  These systems are great when they are kept up, but left in storage, mold and algae grow in the water lines and tanks as well as accumulated dirt and grime.  

It looks like you cleaned some of the lines and the faucets, but I would skip that and disconnect the service line where it feeds the bathroom and with bucket or large cup in hand, or a clamped hose end to extend the line outside, turn on the water pump to see if you get a marked improvement.

 

[Jason Foster]

Have you ever done the full decalcification on your trailer?

[Jason Foster]

If not, here is a great article from Jason Essary:

Decalcification - Hard Water Buildup - Loss of Water Pressure (olivertraveltrailers.com)

[Ronbrink]

To @Jason Foster’s point, simply remove the faucet/shower head from the pullout hose at the sink and check the flow at the unobstructed hose end. This may help to determine if a clogged head is the problem. 

[Lisa Rae]

@Jason Fosterthanks for the link, I will try that.

@RonbrinkI did that but have no frame of reference if the flow was good or not but I guess if the pump stays on constantly and doesn't surg that might tell me if the faucet/shower head is the problem.  If it is that won't explain why the water flow to the toilet is low, but one thing at a time. Thanks! 

[Minnesota Oli]

 

 

 

This makes me think of the plastic that would plug the screen on the suction side of the pump, now if the screen could  be installed wrong and let it get by that I don't know. The fact that both toilet and sink run slow I would think the problem is some where before the pipes split to feed those two areas.

[mossemi]

@Lisa Rae

I think that judging the water flow by eye is very subjective.  To accurately compare the bath and kitchen water flow you need a bucket and a timer.  Start with each faucet and run hot and cold water separately into the bucket for 15 seconds, if the bucket is large enough.  Then measure the accumulated water and compare the hot and cold water in each bucket.  Are both the hot and cold water flows nearly the same?

The next steps will require removing each component and testing against the baseline measurements.  If you are happy with the water flow at the kitchen sink, move onto the bathroom. 

Note 1: There may be restrictive aerators in each faucet.  For example, we have a .75 gallon aerator in the bath faucet but there is a 1.5 gallon aerator in the separate shower head.  Our OEM kitchen faucet aerator can’t be changed.

Note 2:  The black fitting behind the toilet is a filter, not a pressure regulator.

 

Mossey

[Rivernerd]

3 hours ago, Lisa Rae said:

I did that [remove the bath faucet/shower head] but have no frame of reference if the flow was good or not but I guess if the pump stays on constantly and doesn't surge that might tell me if the faucet/shower head is the problem.

The flow to our bath faucet/shower head in Hull #1291 is about the same as the flow to the kitchen sink.  If the flow from your flexible bath faucet/shower head hose (with the faucet/shower head removed) is not about the same as the robust flow into the kitchen sink shown in your video, then you likely have flow restriction somewhere between the kitchen and bath.

If so, my next step would be to try the decalcification process referenced by Jason Foster above. 

[Lisa Rae]

@mossemi I did figure out the thing on the toilet was a filter and cleaned it out, there was a lot of sediment in it but it was not clogged.

I was going off this plumbing diagram which seemed to match the way my water lines go but I don't have an accumulator and this one does and the the one you posted doesn't so I will take another look at how my liens are run.  The one you posted and this one however don't show the inline pressure regulators and backflow valves which I really think they should.

 

I run bathroom sink faucet hose running without the head on in it and seems like a good flow but you can still see it's not steady and the you can hear the pump surging.  Still don't know if that is normal.  I will give your suggestion a try to try and get a baseline.

 

 

 

 

 

[mossemi]

2 minutes ago, Lisa Rae said:

The one you posted and this one however don't show the inline pressure regulators and backflow valves which I really think they should.

The back flow or check valves are on the tank fill and city water inlets.  They are under the floor of the basement/storage area in my 2017 LE2, in the area your diagram shows.

Please keep us updated on your success or failure in troubleshooting your water flow issue.

Mossey

[jd1923]

Thank you @Lisa Rae. I've asked about this before and like you said, the threads to not come to conclusion. Can it just be the length of the plumbing, rear to front, that makes it slower, or is something truly restricting flow? 

I replaced the water valves with motorized true 1/2" valves and in the doing found out OTT had installed brass valves with measured 1/4" inner diameter. The elbows, used in 1/2" PEX are about 3/8" ID. Wonder how many of these elbows I will find under the sinks. I will remove some PEX and as many 90-degree elbows as I can under the sink and replace with full 1/2" ID soft water line.

So great you removed and cleaned the rear brass backflow preventers and regulators. I asked before, why 2 parts when the OTT plumbing diagrams only show a backflow preventer? I feared one was a regulator. I can just read the stamping on the regulator in your picture. Looks like 40 PSI, or 40-50 PSI. This is likely too restrictive, even when clean. Really should be 55-60 PSI, for those of us who want more than a trickle.

We can see from your video, that the bath is certainly slower. You should measure for a true before and after. @mossemi suggested a procedure.

I timed "seconds to fill" an empty gallon water bottle at both sinks.
Formula: 1 / # seconds x 60 = GPM
Example: 1 / 48s x 60 = 1.25 GPM (it took 48 seconds to fill the gallon)
Do this to get hard numbers and then you can compare before and after vinegar cleaning, or any plumbing change.

The 1.25 GPM rate was what I measured at our bathroom faucet. The kitchen was a little faster at 40 secs, calculating 1.5 GPM. We upgraded our water pump, with a variable speed pump, and it increased flow in both locations about 10%, and not as much as I had hoped. The new pump is quieter, but the plumbing under our bathroom sink has gotten noisier, that banging plumbing sound.

Next step for me is to remove the front of the vanity to see what is restricting the flow. I'll do the @Frank C vanity mod after we get done with spring travel: Bathroom Vanity Cubby Modification - Mechanical & Technical Tips - Oliver Owner Forums (olivertraveltrailers.com)

[Lisa Rae]

@jd1923 Thanks for the info.  I didn't realize the regulators had the PSI on them, duh.  I thought about replacing them but didn't know where to get them and they don't show a brand name to be able to look them up but if/when I replace them I will go with the higher PSI as you suggest.  I will still use an external regulator also though.

I didn't get a chance yet to do the timed test yet but I will get to it hopefully tomorrow.

I was wondering if the length of the plumbing run to the bathroom is what is causing the pressure/flow to be low and the pump surge but I guess I won't know until I get this all fixed but technically the length of the run should effect it unless there are other issues.

I don't think I am going to try and replace the fitting to get them to be true 1/2" just yet but might as a last resort.

I am planning on doing the vanity mod as well since I already took it out.  I'm going to drill into the ends of the clear bars about 1/2" deep and add LEDs (because everything is better with LEDs) and put a power switch in next to the water pump switch just to add some lighting for at night. 

[jd1923]

15 minutes ago, Lisa Rae said:

...if/when I replace them I will go with the higher PSI as you suggest.  I will still use an external regulator also though...

...I don't think I am going to try and replace the fitting to get them to be true 1/2" just yet but might as a last resort...

It's unnecessary use an external regulator, given the 40 PSI inline regulators.

There will be some who will warn against going to higher PSI. But honestly, design engineers can be so dumb at times! Why would OTT install a 45 PSI regulator on the City Water line, but install a 55 PSI water pump? Why does the Fresh Water inlet need one at all? Pressure cannot build up in that line, since the fresh tank is vented via an overflow. Just the reason why it takes long to fill the tank. Now I understand why we have better pressure using the internal water pump vs. the City Water line! Thank you for this.

You could not possibly remove the dozens of PEX elbow and other connector fittings, but if I can remove 2-3 from hot and cold lines showing in the vanity, I certainly will, to open and soften the flow. Haven't looked in there yet.

We just got back from Casa Grande AZ, where the afternoon temps were high 70s. I did a couple outdoor showers since the pressure was better (and to not get the bathroom wet)! We carry an extra 35 gallons potable water in a truck mounted stock tank. We like to boondock for a week with all the water with good pressure as possible!

[Geronimo John]

7 hours ago, mossemi said:

Note 2:  The black fitting behind the toilet is a filter, not a pressure regulator.

Interesting.  I have not ever heard of filtering drinking water to a toilet.  The previous owner must have had some really really nasty water that broke the toilet. Or maybe their pets like filtered drinking water.

GJ

[Geronimo John]

39 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

Pressure cannot build up in that line, since the fresh tank is vented via an overflow. Just the reason why it takes long to fill the tank

Likely they had an experience where an owner was filling the tank at a VERY high water pressure and flow rate.  So much so that the vent line, which is quite substantial, could not handle the flow and the tank failed.  Not all engineers are stupid, and OTT does things for a reason.  We may not know the reason it, but they know it from experience.  Yep for sure.

[Lisa Rae]

28 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

Interesting.  I have not ever heard of filtering drinking water to a toilet.  The previous owner must have had some really really nasty water that broke the toilet. Or maybe their pets like filtered drinking water.

GJ

@Geronimo John LMAO...I know you were joking but to clarify for others, the filter does not purify the water it just catches debris in the water so it doesn't get in the valve of the toilet and damage it or cause a blockage.  

[jd1923]

Some of us here are adding true mods, yet many of us are making corrections for cheap parts and inadequate design, and asking why in an expensive TT. And I understand being proud of Oliver! Yes, it's a good overall design in travel trailers. Continuous improvement must be a component of company culture, and OTT has improved through the years. It starts by admitting past mistakes.

@Geronimo John, you must admit, user feedback was not asking for 1.25 GPM flow at the bathroom. "Please keep the pressure low, so my wife cannot rinse her hair!" Or the seasoned engineer determining, "a 45 PSI regulator is required for the 55 PSI RV water pump system." There is a disconnect here. No physical reason can be cited.

We could also reference the half-a-dozen recent threads on the furnace duct system. Reason the return is arm's length form the strongest duct. Reason the bath duct has very little air flow with no return (again with improvements through the years). Reason why the main water lines are running along and touching the back wall, the coldest area of the trailer? Reason for Dexter China bearings vs. Timken. Reason for multiple leaf spring failures? ...

I need a reason, and it's not just that I'm an engineer, or that I should take your word for it because you are. You wrote, "We may not know the reason (for) it, but they know it from experience." Sorry, I can't swallow that one. Never have, and never will. Not accepting the status quo, asking "How can we do better" is the basics of good design engineering.

[STEVEnBETTY]

I have hull #219, i can’t relate to the low flow in the toilet, but as Mossemi described in his post there was a flow restrictor “water saver” in the shower head.If I remember correctly it was a red piece that popped right out, that made a huge difference in mine

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, STEVEnBETTY said:

I have hull #219, i can’t relate to the low flow in the toilet, but as Mossemi described in his post there was a flow restrictor “water saver” in the shower head.If I remember correctly it was a red piece that popped right out, that made a huge difference in mine

And our toilet fills quickly NP, yet our sink/shower faucet is the issue.

A filter on the toilet! 🤣 I hope it filters particles larger than the norm! 

Edited March 22 by jd1923

[Lisa Rae]

@STEVEnBETTY I appreciate that info, I don't remember seeing a red piece when I took the faucet/shower head apart and soaked it all but I can give it another look.

 

@jd1923 having worked in manufacturing with engineers, then becoming one myself, for over 30yrs I see both sides of it.  I also know that some decisions are made by a purchasing person tasked with trying to save 10cents on a part or by someone with the shop floor experience to know what the engineer designed wont work in the real world.  So there might not be one person who actually knows the "why".  The engineer may not know his design was changed by the person with the shop floor knowledge or by the person saving a few cents on every fitting.  Unfortunately these things happen, one of the best example was the Ford Pinto, the engineers designed a great car until the accountants decided to save $20 on every car and not put a bladder in the fuel tank to prevent fuel from leaking out in a crash.  I have no direct knowledge that this kind of thing has happened in the plumbing system of the Oliver but with the inconsistencies you can see where it's possible multiple people with different agendas have been involved and no one knows someone else altered anything and why.  It also could be whoever made those decisions is no longer with the company and no one know why it's done the way it is but since it works well for most customers they just keep doing it. 

Oliver is not a dumb company and they do listen to their customers about issues and how to improve things but at the end of the day they are still a business and they have to ultimately do what is best for the bottom line and the sustainability of the company.  Some times that means make a change and other times it means don't make the change because the benefits don't outweigh the cost and in this case I'll bet they wouldn't by a long shot but I could be wrong.

[jd1923]

3 minutes ago, Lisa Rae said:

...Having worked in manufacturing with engineers, then becoming one myself, for over 30yrs I see both sides of it.  I also know that some decisions are made by a purchasing person...

I worked for Motorola, back in the day, and what you wrote is spot-on! Thank you.

I trained 1000s of manufacturing associates, in advanced manufacturing technology (CIM), and Motorola would pay for the education of associates in continuing education, work the line and later get an engineering BS or technical certification. Motorola brought us much of the technology we use today and was the founder of Six Sigma quality!

So many of the issues we see are the result of purchasing, agreed 100%. But engineering does not end with design, it is full life cycle, and finishes with Total Customer Satisfaction (Motorola TCS). As a design engineer, my project is not finished until I have 1000 customers providing feedback, and we work the next months, or year towards improvement! GB you @Lisa Rae!

[Geronimo John]

4 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Interesting.  I have not ever heard of filtering drinking water to a toilet.  The previous owner must have had some really really nasty water that broke the toilet. Or maybe their pets like filtered drinking water.

JD:  Most of that was a joke.  🙂

11 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

So many of the issues we see are the result of purchasing, agreed 100%. But engineering does not end with design, it is full life cycle, and finishes with Total Customer Satisfaction (Motorola TCS). As a design engineer, my project is not finished until I have 1000 customers providing feedback, and we work the next months, or year towards improvement! GB you @Lisa Rae!

Some engineers are fortunate to have the time and resources for long term project improvement efforts.  Sadly, the vast majority of the engineers do not.  Hopefully as we return the US economy back to that of actually making what we use, the time and resources will be available for them to do so.   

I believe that OTT has invested in this forum in a way as part of their quality improvement efforts.  This forum and our Service Tickets are many thousands of opportunities for them to do so.  And every one of the items sent their way is in fact looked at and the vast majority are resolved.  I also am aware that their Quality Team is active on several of the issues we have seen in this forum discussed.  So when we have a problem, those service tickets, and this forum are gold mines for their Quality efforts.

That said, I could not resist the opportunity for levity with the pets, toilets and filtered drinking water crack.  PS:  I love dogs. Cats and Alligators not so much.