Any thoughts on the Land Rover Discovery or Ford Excursion/Lincoln Navigator?

[Mike and Carol]

I believe that there is an “inner truck” in every man. Just saying.

So true.  I’ve always been a European performance sedan kind of guy.  The other vehicle in my garage is an Audi S3, no slouch in the performance department.  But, given the choice, I almost always pick up my truck keys when I need to go somewhere.  Maybe it’s age?  Mike

[ScentFreeInSC]

Hey all, I wanted to thank you so much for the input you've given us.  We still haven't decided between the Expedition and the Navigator, but it's encouraging to hear that folks have found the Ford towing technology on them, and the F-150, to be worthwhile.

 

John - I totally hear you about the Land Cruiser being better for off-road.  When I saw it in some of the TFLTrucks videos, I was in awe.  The thing is, I think we are looking for something different than you are.  As newbies, we are looking for something to help us as much as possible with the towing aspects, and at least allow us onto unpaved roads.  I'm sure when you saw the video of the Expedition on Gold Mine Hill, you thought it was pathetic, but my reaction was, "Gee, it got part way through something that I would never, ever attempt, so I'm sure it can handle what I want it to do!"  Who knows, in a few years, if we're more comfortable with the towing side of it, we might be ready to get something with more off-road capability.  I am still trying to figure out how we can swap down to smaller rims without having to just buy new ones and try to sell the old ones, as the trim level we're looking at means 22's.

 

Matthew - I am extremely sympathetic to your having to trade the 911...I was planning on getting a Boxster some day (was even active in various East Coast Boxster groups), but health issues intervened.  I do think we'd like and adapt to the truck, but Chad just can't get past the fact that it will only have about 6" to spare in the garage, and I don't blame him.  We'd have to open the garage door in order to get around to the workshop area and the breakers, or he'd have to figure out how to move the whole workshop area to the near side, and then the truck would be blocking the breaker box.

 

This being our only vehicle makes it that much harder, as we want something that will be easy to navigate around town and the shopping center, and comfortable on long trips, with or without the Ollie.  Such an animal doesn't really exist.  I'll keep you all updated if we make a decision.

 

-Kathryn

 

Edit: And John, I forgot to mention, the Auto Hold is definitely different from traditional Hill Hold.  Hill Hold usually just stops you from rolling back for a few seconds while you transition from the brake to the accelerator, and is generally only activated on an incline.  Auto Hold actually leaves the brake engaged until you press the accelerator, and works any time you've come to a full stop.

[Overland]

I do think we’d like and adapt to the truck, but Chad just can’t get past the fact that it will only have about 6″ to spare in the garage, and I don’t blame him. We’d have to open the garage door in order to get around to the workshop area and the breakers, or he’d have to figure out how to move the whole workshop area to the near side, and then the truck would be blocking the breaker box.

Or put the truck on the street, which leaves plenty of room in the garage for the Porsche.

[ScentFreeInSC]

WE HAVE MADE A DECISION!!!!

 

You may not find this as momentous as our families (who know that neither of us good at making a decision, particularly until we've researched it to death), but Saturday we went to the dealer and put in an order for a Lincoln Navigator.  Our main thinking was that it had enough things that we really wanted, that would make driving and towing easier and more comfortable than the Expedition, that it was worth paying more for it.  In particular, we both really think the Heads Up Display will be an asset to reduce driving fatigue.  We also found that the Lincoln had a lot less noise and vibration over all (and I don't think it was just from the different tires - I know they have added insulating material and active noise cancelling).  This might not matter to some, but because of my medical condition, this could have a big impact on me, particularly cumulatively on a longer trip.   We ruled out the other large SUVs because they didn't have the mix of features that we were looking for, and the Lincoln did.  It also had the best gas mileage.  I am still kinda worried about taking it on dirt/gravel roads in parks and such, because they make it out to be such a frou-frou vehicle, but it's basically the same thing as the Expedition; fundamentally, this thing is a truck, right?

 

We got the Reserve trim level with the Heavy Duty Trailer Tow Package and nothing else.  We had a choice of three configuration options for the second row seating: bench seat for three, two captains chairs with center console or two captains chairs with nothing between them.  We opted for the last option, since we have no need for seating for eight.  I liked the ability to get to anything in the back more easily, to load older folks in easily, and the extra space for a large cooler or other items between the seats.  (I'm going to want to strap them down, though.)  I also figure one less seat or console is that much less unnecessary weight.   The reason we got the Reserve trim level was because it was only about $400 more than the Select once we'd added all the options we wanted, and it came with the "Vista Roof" aka sun roof, along with a few other bells and whistles.    I will warn anyone considering one to think twice about any of the "tricoat" colors.  These are literally three coats of paint, and the middle one, with metallics and pearlessence, apparently makes it very hard to color match if you need to get anything touched-up or repainted.  It is very hard to get the *exact* thickness that the factory did, and if you don't the first coat, with the main color, will show through too much or too little.  They had no regular old white, so we ended up choosing a metallic blue.

 

Even though most dealers are selling these at or above MSRP, our local dealer honored the X-Plan pricing that Chad could access through his employer, so we will pay just slightly above invoice.  The big question now is what will our production date be and when might we actually take delivery?  We've been taking bets, but my guess is just before the rally, so we'll have to take country roads during the break-in period.  (I had no idea they still made you do a break-in period...my 2000 BMW had a factory broken-in engine.)

 

So, thank you everyone for your thoughts and advice; we are grateful for all of the input.  We're making plans now to attend the rally in May, so we'll hopefully meet some of you there.

 

Now we just have to make decisions on Ollie options, gear, mods,....argh!

 

-Kathryn (& Chad)

 

 

[Overland]

I think the only thing that might hold you back on gravel roads will be the big wheels and low profile tires.  Just something to think about if you really decide to start banging it around - a bent wheel in the middle of nowhere is a bummer.  Otherwise, looks like a great choice - congrats!

 

 

[John E Davies]

I think the only thing that might hold you back on gravel roads will be the big wheels and low profile tires. Just something to think about if you really decide to start banging it around – a bent wheel in the middle of nowhere is a bummer. Otherwise, looks like a great choice – congrats!

 

That looks like a wonderful and comfy cross country TV, but I echo the above thought, 22 inch wheels will be very vulnerable to damage and they will ride more harshly on rough or unpaved roads.... could you talk to your salesman and see if he would be willing to swap them before delivery for a set of 20” ones? Seriously, it could save some grief and expense later. You could even put Expedition wheels on it, they would be the same pattern. I would go with 18” personally but that may be too much of a radical change for you.

 

You also need to think about a full sized spare - a compact one is a big handicap on long trips, I bet a matching full sized wheel and tire will fit in place of the OEM compact one under the bed.

 

It should be an absolute hoot to drive, it certainly has plenty of torque and it should pull your new Ollie without breathing hard. I bet you are pretty excited.... is this the color you ordered? Pretty....

 

 

It is reminiscent of the Range Rover but I like the lines of the Navigator a whole lot more.

 

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[BackofBeyond]

It should be an absolute hoot to drive, it certainly has plenty of torque and it should pull your new Ollie without breathing hard. I bet you are pretty excited…. is this the color you ordered? Pretty….

 

Almost too pretty to get dirty, Nice.

 

I would guess the engine 'break-in" is not much more than 500 miles, for the towing aspect anyway. My GMC was that - but in reality the Duramax is gonna be settling in for about 20 times that, your gas engine will be fine - sooner. I always change the initial "factory" engine oil much sooner, under 2000 miles. But that's just me.

 

Congratulations, Kathryn & Chad

 

RB

[ScentFreeInSC]

I'm in total agreement with y'all on the wheel size...I haven't convinced Chad yet.  I too was wondering if I could swap these out somehow when it arrived, but it's not like the dealer is ordering anything with the smaller rims right now that they'd be willing to swap them with.  I did consider the idea that we could even go down to the Expedition's 18" rims, and I think we'd have a bigger tire selection too, including all-terrain.  I think, we'll likely drive with these for the first year or so, since initially we're going to be sticking closer to home as we learn the ropes.  If we feel they are an issue at parks, then we'll definitely need to address them before heading west.

 

About the spare...I finally got the dealer to confirm that it was a full size spare.  I asked was it a smaller rim, but same total diameter, to save weight, and they said it was full sized.  And gosh darn it, I just looked at a pic that Chad snapped of the inside door stickers, and wouldn't you know it, the spare is an 18 and isn't even the same total diameter - a full centimeter smaller, with a lower load rating.  I specifically asked, because I wanted to know if the space was big enough to even hold a full size spare, since I think we should have one.  ARGH.

 

And yes, John, I think that is the color, though honestly it is really chameleon-like depending on the lighting.  Doesn't look so monstrous next to a large rockwall.  And yeah, it does look like that Land Rover, and is prettier....okay, now you've got me liking it more!

 

Russell - Break-in is 500 miles in general, 1000 miles before towing.  We will be getting it dirty, guaranteed!

 

-Kathryn

[John E Davies]

New “take-off” wheels and tires have a lot more resale value than used ones, even if it is just a few thousand miles. There are lots of Expedition owners who love those big wagon wheels and would quickly buy your take-offs. But working a swap with the dealer would be much simpler. They can easily resell them. Or they could do a “dealer upgrade” on a new lower end model and give you those smaller wheels. It just depends on the dealership. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to ask the sales manager or owner. Now is the time to do this, not when you are staring at the truck on the lot and dying to drive it away....

 

In your shoes I would be looking for five matching 18 or 20” wheels and tires and sticking that fifth one underneath. I am fairly sure it would fit, there has to be room to store a dirty flat one when you install the spare. Have you checked the owners manual? You can download one from the Lincoln website.

 

Again, that is a great looking vehicle.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

[Rumline]

When I bought my Expedition Platinum I had the dealer swap the 22" wheels upon delivery with 20"s from a Limited.  They only charged me labor to reprogram the TPMS.  Just an idea.

 

Love towing with the Expedition BTW.  Drove through a 45 mph crosswind/dust storm south of Raton, NM in December, and the car and trailer were very well behaved.  So far I'm averaging 12 MPG towing with it (hand-calculated) over 4600 miles driving between 65-70 mph on the highways.  The power out of this engine is amazing, and it's nice to be able to drive up grades at 60 mph with the engine humming along at 2800 rpm.  You get over the size within a month or so; mine came with the 360 camera and it was a big help at first, but I don't really need it anymore, 5 months in.

 

People shop towing capacity and space but what we’ve found is that it is the towing convenience features of full size pickups that really make the difference in real life. Things like extra cameras, backup assist and blind spot detection that extends the length of the trailer are huge, yet they’re things that you don’t appreciate until you’re using them.

 

I respectfully disagree with the above.  The trailer blind spot monitoring, at least on my Expedition, is unreliable enough that I can't count on it.  They also do not replace the need for proper tow mirrors.  I've never once used the Pro Trailer Backup Assist.  Even though this is my first RV, I honestly have never felt like I needed that feature.  And believe me, I haven't just been taking it to palatial RV parks and pull-thru sites.  Speaking strictly for myself, I would not base my selection of tow vehicle on any of the electronic do-dads, and I'm a 30-something techie.  I chose the Max Tow package (or whatever it was called) because of the mechanical upgrades it brings, not the least of which being a proper two-speed transfer case.

 

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect people buying stuff for whatever reason makes them happy.  My advice is simply to not get too wrapped up with towing tech gizmos until you take care of more important considerations first, such as sufficient payload capacity, reliability/serviceability, suitability for your family's towing and non-towing needs, comfort, budget, etc.

[ScubaRx]

I’ve swapped the tires and wheels on the last three vehicles we’ve had, always going smaller than what was delivered. Our Silverado 2500HD now has the 18” wheels from a friend’s 3500HD and he has my original 20’s. A young guy who is employed in his family’s 60+ year old tire store, thinks the 20” wheels and lower profile tires look cool ?.  I like the 18’s better because you can get a higher load range tire in that size, it now perfectly match’s my stock spare, you can get that size tire anywhere (try getting a 20” or 22” tire at Walmart on a Sunday) and they’re less expensive. He’s happy and I’m happy.

 

I think your plan to swap out your tires and wheels is a good plan and I agree that doing it sooner rather than later is the best advice.

[Overland]

Keep in mind though that the handling of the vehicle will likely change for the worse.  Not dramatically, but when I went to larger all terrain tires on my X5, the handling wasn't nearly as crisp.

 

You might be able to minimize the difference if you get tires with very stiff sidewalls, like Bridgestone KO2.

[Overland]

Overland wrote:

People shop towing capacity and space but what we’ve found is that it is the towing convenience features of full size pickups that really make the difference in real life. Things like extra cameras, backup assist and blind spot detection that extends the length of the trailer are huge, yet they’re things that you don’t appreciate until you’re using them.

I respectfully disagree with the above. The trailer blind spot monitoring, at least on my Expedition, is unreliable enough that I can’t count on it. They also do not replace the need for proper tow mirrors. I’ve never once used the Pro Trailer Backup Assist. Even though this is my first RV, I honestly have never felt like I needed that feature. And believe me, I haven’t just been taking it to palatial RV parks and pull-thru sites. Speaking strictly for myself, I would not base my selection of tow vehicle on any of the electronic do-dads, and I’m a 30-something techie.

The blind spot detection on my F150 has been faultless so far, but the point isn't that these things replace anything.  They add information.  Just like while towing mirrors aren't required, you prefer having them because they give you more context to what you're seeing.  So sure I could drive with just the side mirrors, but adding a rear camera and blind spot detection gives more info and more context, and a fail safe just in case I miss seeing a motorcycle or something.  And all of that makes the experience of towing more comfortable and enjoyable.  It all definitely helps my wife - she's not just comfortable, but confident when driving - and a confident driver is a safer one.

 

The backup assist bothers people for some reason, and I don't know why.  I truly suspect it's an ego thing.  We should do a backup contest at the rallies - that would be a lot of fun.

[ScottyGS]

Pro Backup Assist was a big reason that we chose the F-150 as a TV.   It has been extremely helpful for a guy that had little to no towing experience previously.  (That would be me)      I have found the Pro Backup Assist to work very well.  It's been great when I need to get the job done quickly and efficiently.   That being said... there are some drawbacks.   On a sunny day, if the light hits that sticker just right.. you can get an error message.   Same for backing up the crest of a hill, when the angle gets too much for the camera to "see" the sticker.   And, it does take some time to engage.   But it is a good system and helps me a lot.

 

BUT....   I am aware that skills are skills and look for opportunities to go manual.  If I am in a large area, or have lots of time, AND... if there is no one around to laugh at me.  I try to improve my backing up skills.

 

As far as my ego in this area... I don't really have one.  And besides, unless you are really close to me you can't tell if I am using Pro Backup Assist or not.   At my last home, my neighbor would compliment me on my backing in skills and I would just smile. :-)

 

Happy Camping,

 

Scotty

 

 

[John E Davies]

Overland, I think this is a great response, I would use some of these safety features if I had them.

 

The other side of the coin is that for someone who has never towed, unless they learn with the electronic helpers turned off, there will come a day when he must do without. If the cameras are blocked or the system shuts down by itself, you need to have some “backup” backing skills to use.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

[BackofBeyond]

Not to hijack the OP thread, but this an interesting discussion - "the electronic do-dads". I am not one to shun technology, I use it when it is worthwhile. I know my TV has tech that I don't use - simply because I don't know  its there.....However, it is important, as has been stated, we all should have at least once developed, if not mastered the skills these systems replace.

 

The rear camera on my TV, is a great feature, really helps, especially with the heaver Oliver EII, (as opposed to my farm trailers). I've put a small yellow tape strip on the centerline of the trailers coupling to help alignment.  Bottom line, the technology on todays vehicles improves safety for all, but it should not replace the human interface - awareness, caution, and skill - exponentially improve the results.

 

Nan - if your reading - your choice of TV should at a minimum include a good rear camera system - check out this feature when test driving.

 

Now, I need to get out there and hone my backing skills... when it dries out...…….

[Rumline]

I wasn't saying the electronics are useless nor is it "an ego thing;" I have no desire to compete with anybody on backing up trailers.  The post that I quoted previously seemed to be saying that people typically worry about towing capacity and space in the tow vehicle but should instead focus on electronics, which is what I disagree with.  If I misread that statement then I apologize.

[BackofBeyond]

Rumline,

 

We are in agreement!

 

I only quipped about practicing - because the last time I tried getting the Oliver into my garage's 10' doorway - I was - lets just say- terrible....my wife says pitiful....oh well,

 

I got rid of my ego along time ago, it rarely served me well.;-)

 

RB

 

 

[donthompson]

My monitor for the backup camera quit working.  I've taken one long trip without the monitor and I'm leaving on another on Saturday.  I miss it when backing into a tight camping spot.  But, I just jump out of the Touareg and look to see where the trees and obstacles are. (I'm a solo traveler)

 

Today I backed up into our narrow, ice-covered driveway with snow drifts on both sides of the entrance to the driveway in Iowa to get the Ollie packed and ready to leave on Saturday morning for Big Bend National Park.  While I've backed trailers for over 50 years, I've learned to be more proficient owning and towing the Ollie.  It's really simple if you follow a few basic rules:  1)  Place your hands on the bottom of your steering wheel.  If you want the rear of the camper to go to the left, move your hands to the left. If you want the camper to go right, move your hands to the right; 2)  Drive very, very slowly;  3)  Use small and gradual steering inputs to avoid having to overcorrect.

[Overland]

I wasn’t saying the electronics are useless nor is it “an ego thing;” I have no desire to compete with anybody on backing up trailers. The post that I quoted previously seemed to be saying that people typically worry about towing capacity and space in the tow vehicle but should instead focus on electronics, which is what I disagree with. If I misread that statement then I apologize.

 

What I meant was that people are always asking about smaller vehicles but the discussion is typically limited to whether the vehicles can handle a trailer.  I think it's important to consider the other advantages that they may be giving up by choosing something that wasn't designed with towing as a primary function.

 

Sorry if it sounded like I was challenging you to a towing match - I just think it would be fun to have a competition in the parking lot at one of the rallies, backing our trailers through an obstacle course or something.

[ScentFreeInSC]

Mods to the navigator to handle the dirty stuff. We made removeable sides side and back compartment protectors so that as we load and unload sometimes wet and dirty items into the back we keep it looking nice.