Truck Shopping and Cargo Weights

[Mike and Carol]

I’ve got the itch to get a new truck.  I really like the Ram 1500 Rebel and have been looking for one with all the options I want/need.  Online, I found one a couple hours away in Austin, negotiated a good price and drove up yesterday to potentially buy it.  We took it for a drive and really liked it.  Unfortunately, when I checked the Tire Load sticker it had max cargo at 1165 lbs.  I told my young sales guy that wasn’t enough and I couldn’t buy it.  He was a bit perplexed and fetched a senior sales guy, also an RVer, and he agreed.  He called Ram corporate and was told it was the off-road tires they use (Goodyear Wrangler).  In the meantime, we jumped into a Ram 2500 Power Wagon and took it for a drive.  Nice.  Same issue, though.  Sticker said max cargo of 1235 lbs.  Same tires.  The dealer wants to replace the tires on the Rebel with higher load rated off-road tires and is waiting for word from Ram corporate.  Fun!  

Mike

[John E Davies]

The difference being.....

Neither the Rebel nor the PW will have a better real world bed capacity. But the PW can be safely loaded past its rated load but the Rebel cannot. Even with Load E tires. Buy the Wagon, and no worries. 
 

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 10, 2019 by John E Davies

[BackofBeyond]

Interesting, I never thought about the tire load ratings being that restrictive, esp. on the power wagon. So If you upgrade to the necessary load rated tires, how do you get a "legal" rating. (given our litigious culture). Safe range, vs, OEM stated range. I would love to know where RAM comes out on this, I would have thought the 2500 PW much more versatile here...

My load rating is plenty high enough stock, so if I change tire to different load rating, my OEM sticker is void..... 

[Mike and Carol]

10 minutes ago, BackofBeyond said:

Interesting, I never thought about the tire load ratings being that restrictive, esp. on the power wagon. So If you upgrade to the necessary load rated tires, how do you get a "legal" rating. (given our litigious culture). Safe range, vs, OEM stated range. I would love to know where RAM comes out on this, I would have thought the 2500 PW much more versatile here...

My load rating is plenty high enough stock, so if I change tire to different load rating, my OEM sticker is void..... 

I resisted just swapping out tires.  The senior guy agreed and that’s why they are waiting on Ram to respond.  If new tires increase the weight then the dealer wants a new tire load sticker to keep everyone good.  I was surprised that the PW was so low.  I told them that both trucks are worthless for towing if you can’t put anything in the bed.  

[Mike and Carol]

2 hours ago, John E Davies said:

The difference being.....

Neither the Rebel nor the PW will have a better real world bed capacity. But the PW can be safely loaded past its rated load but the Rebel cannot. Even with Load E tires. Buy the Wagon, and no worries. 
 

John Davies

Spokane WA

The PW is tempting.  If I could get the split tailgate I would be tempted more - the bed is high enough to reach into I would need a step stool all the time.  Opening the tailgate out instead of down would help.  Also don’t like the fact the PW only comes with a front bench seat.  We like buckets with the increased console storage.  Still looking....

[Trainman]

As you know we pull our Oliver with a 2019 Ram 1500 4x4 and I very happy with the way the truck handles both with and without the Oliver attached. The only advantage that I liked with the 2500 was that I wouldn't have to use the Anderson WDH. As of today if I had to replace the Ram I would probably still go with the 1500, as I have yet to see any drawbacks on the 1500 and towing the Oliver. One thing in today's world is the Big Four are building 1/2 ton pickups that can handle so much more today then they could just a few years back, five years ago I would have got a 2500 for sure. As far as tires go I will replace mine with a truck type tire when the time comes. 

 

trainman

[PeteRissler]

Sounds like a pre 2019 model, the 2019 and 2020 models have payloads around 1500-1600. I just put a deposit on a 2020 Ram Rebel Ecodiesel 4x4 Quad Cab, I'm expecting around 1600 lb payload. It should be in early March.

[Galway Girl]

Oh the joys of payload shopping for a RAM.

I recently was helping a friend who is shopping for his first trailer and a new RAM 2500...(but we also looked at 1500).  
I went to the RAM website, where you can put in a VIN# and get the "payload" number.
We found the ideally configured unit at the dealers website.
Got the VIN #  for the unit on the dealer lot,
We then put in that VIN number and got the FACTORY payload # from the RAM website and drove over to the dealers.

At the dealer lot we found that exact VIN, and opened the door and the payload sticker was off by about 250#.   
They said the same thing that it was a tire rating sticker....but they said that there was no way to get that changed.

So my friend told them I can't buy this truck to tow my trailer because I'll have no payload left for gear and family.

They suggested a more stripped down model...or go even bigger to a 3500....

He's scratching his head and very concerned about having no way to know "exactly" what the payload sticker will say...even if he custom ordered the truck...

 

[Mike and Carol]

41 minutes ago, PeteRissler said:

Sounds like a pre 2019 model, the 2019 and 2020 models have payloads around 1500-1600. I just put a deposit on a 2020 Ram Rebel Ecodiesel 4x4 Quad Cab, I'm expecting around 1600 lb payload. It should be in early March.

It is a 2020 model that they just received. The Ram door sticker is higher, but the tire sticker was lower at 1165 lbs.  

[Mike and Carol]

4 minutes ago, ctshort09 said:

They said the same thing that it was a tire rating sticker....but they said that there was no way to get that changed.

 

My dealer seemed to think it could be changed which is why he went to Ram Corporate. He had some kind of POC there. I’ll update one way or another when I find out. 

[Mike and Carol]

57 minutes ago, Trainman said:

As you know we pull our Oliver with a 2019 Ram 1500 4x4 and I very happy with the way the truck handles both with and without the Oliver attached. The only advantage that I liked with the 2500 was that I wouldn't have to use the Anderson WDH. As of today if I had to replace the Ram I would probably still go with the 1500, as I have yet to see any drawbacks on the 1500 and towing the Oliver. One thing in today's world is the Big Four are building 1/2 ton pickups that can handle so much more today then they could just a few years back, five years ago I would have got a 2500 for sure. As far as tires go I will replace mine with a truck type tire when the time comes. 

 

trainman

Yep.  I’ve got well over 50K miles towing my Oliver with my current Ram. No problems!

[Galway Girl]

As we know, payload decrease from advertised number is something  new truck buyers need be aware of before buying the truck.

Rule of thumb..…Payload Decreases as the Trim Level and Options Increase..

Example from our visit to RAM dealer *(2019 model year data and it may change for this  2020 year.)

·        Dodge Ram 1500 –  Vin 1C6SRFHT8KN920407

Advertised Max Tow Rating – 12750 lbs
Advertised Max Payload – 2300 lbs.  (that's for the most stripped down option set with maximum payload package)

Payload from the official RAM Configuration Website – 1780 lbs -- when we looked it up at the dealer. 
Go here to look up payload by VIN #   https://www.ramtrucks.com/towing-guide.html

Then...the actual Payload on Door Sticker at DEALERSHIP See Below : 1282 LBS

That even caught the dealer by surprise...1780-1280 is about a 500 # decrease.

 

Now for a use case:
That payload of 1282 Lbs needs to include all items that are added to the truck, including people, accessories, camping gear and “trailer tongue wt.”. For your use, know that payload stickers according to JSAE assume a full tank of fuel.

Let's use a specific case for an Oliver Elite II with a loaded trailer tongue wt = 630 lbs 
Other options - New Spray In Bedliner & Canopy – 250 lbs.
Three Passengers – 450 lbs
Camp Stove, Lawn Chairs, Bikes, Tools other Gear – 300 lbs

Payload left for 630# Tongue Wt = 282 lbs…. and  a 348lb gap!

So while there is plenty of "TOW" in this Ram1500 there isn't plenty of Payload....

[John E Davies]

Payload is just one reason I shy away from lots of factory options, like sunroof, additional alternator, running boards etc.... the weight adds up really fast. You can always strip away some of the un-needed equipment, for example rear seats, which are VERY heavy. But who wants to be forced to do that?

I am really surprised at how low that PW load rating is... Does it come with Load D tires?

Remember that a PW payload includes all those cool off-roady bits like winch, skid plates, lockers, etc, which normally would need to be subtracted from the payload of a regular 2500.... if they were added after purchase.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Overland]

I'm surprised that the dealer is blaming the tires for the PW load rating.  Maybe that's also true, but the overriding issue will be the same as the Raptor - soft springs.  You can swap the tires, but I guarantee that you'll also be adding air bags.

The only truck that I know of that comes with both offroad and towing capabilities is the F250 Tremor.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Overland

[Mike and Carol]

14 minutes ago, Overland said:

I'm surprised that the dealer is blaming the tires for the PW load rating.  Maybe that's also true, but the overriding issue will be the same as the Raptor - soft springs.  You can swap the tires, but I guarantee that you'll also be adding air bags.

The Ram VIN sticker had a higher weight, don’t remember exactly. It would have been acceptable. The tire sticker had the significantly lower weight.  I’m sure the Rebel suspension is similar to the Raptor. Maybe I should wait for the Rebel TRX.  Supercharged 6.2L. 😳 Rumor is it will be available late 2020. 

[BackofBeyond]

2 hours ago, ctshort09 said:

As we know, payload decrease from advertised number is something  new truck buyers need be aware of before buying the truck.
 

As has been pointed out in various other discussions, each vehicle has a payload rating based upon its unique configuration.  What the marketing guys put out there, and what most sales people spout is usually just blather. Just knowing the tow rating is not enough (although each OEM seems to use max tow as THE selling point) , as you all mentioned, carrying people, fuel, etc., is important, and thus the legally stated payload label is what we must consult. You will notice the label also states tire data - which is part of the load rating.

I would be  highly suspicious if a dealer said the factory was willing to change this label. These labels are printed (are a part number), as are many other vehicle specific labels,  when the vin is determined, and is a legal document for all intents and purposes.  In fact I be willing to wager it will not happen. 

CTShort09 is on point with his calculation, although he left out fuel, but who's quibbling. My GMC 2500 has a stated payload of 2226 lbs. Given that, I do not worry about overload, 700 lbs. of tongue weight and I'm still  good for 1500 pounds of "other".  And I do not need, or use any type of WDH. 

"So while there is plenty of "TOW" in this Ram1500 there isn't plenty of Payload"....  Good one CT...

As an edit, my comments are in keeping with the legal end of things. As JD stated, one can overload these trucks and remain "safe" based upon real world conditions, but given a legal challenge, the engineers win, those folks determine the  load ratings and are the last resource. We know who the legal engineers reference in a court proceeding. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by BackofBeyond

[Mike and Carol]

3 minutes ago, BackofBeyond said:

I would be  highly suspicious if a dealer said the factory was willing to change this label. These labels are printed (are a part number), as are many other vehicle specific labels,  when the vin is determined, and is a legal document for all intents and purposes.  In fact I be willing to wager it will not happen. 

I agree.  He wasn’t talking about changing the VIN sticker, just checking to see if anything could be done about the tire sticker. The young sales guy got an education because he didn’t understand that tongue weight counted against total weight. The senior guy gave him a detailed explanation and confirmed my explanation. I told him I was surprised more buyers don’t ask the same questions. 

[BackofBeyond]

My comment was directed at the tire  and load rating label - it references the VIN of the vehicle, as do most of the other build specific labels.

Good luck in your search. 

 

Oh, and I hate it when I get an itch, it usually costs me $$$$. I've found sharing the itch early on with my wife seems to cure the need to scratch. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by BackofBeyond

[DavePhelps]

Someone please chime in if I am incorrect here, but payload is calculated by subtracting the vehicle's Curb Weight (which includes the extra weight of all included options), from the vehicle's GVWR. While upgrading the P-metric tires (on the 1/2 ton trucks) to LT E load rated tires has many positive benefits, and is a good idea for towing, it will do nothing to change the payload rating. The GVWR is based on the frame strength, axle weight ratings, etc. I don't see how the tires factor in to that. For example, the axles and frame will be weighted the same whichever tire you use. I've been in the market for a new TV and the Olivers are kind of right on the edge weight wise between the 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks regarding payload. Makes for a hard choice, but either way, I don't see a truck having a payload below 1600 lbs, or more preferably, as being a suitable TV for an Oliver. That is for my particular use and ease of mind, for safety and keeping myself protected from liability in the event of an accident.   YMMV.

Very curious if Dodge will amend their payload sticker based on different tires.

Dave

Edited December 10, 2019 by DavePhelps

[BackofBeyond]

Dave, I won't try to determine how the engineering world at each manufacturer determines a vehicles payload. The max tow rating Olympics that go on each year are recalculations that go on by manipulating this and that piece of new data. Its the premier marketing tool for the truck market.  Tires are an important part of the equation, as are tire pressures. Tires have weight ratings - thus the HD 10 ply on my 2500. 

Heck, many don't pay attention to the hitch components - I regularly see underrated parts in use, : my truck has a 21/2' receiver, yet has a reduction sleeve, of course the max tow ratings are for the 21/2' sleeve. I use the 2... 

You are free to put whatever new tire, air ride suspension, or tow gizmo you want, but if it doesn't meet the OEM spec, your taking the liability, not the Manufacturer. The vast majority of 1/2 ton trucks require a WDH for anything over 500LBS HW. That doesn't negate the improvements the new trucks have made TV usability. At some point physics trumps marketing desire. 

If I am incorrect - please ignore. 

RB

 

[Overland]

53 minutes ago, DavePhelps said:

Someone please chime in if I am incorrect here, but payload is calculated by subtracting the vehicle's Curb Weight (which includes the extra weight of all included options), from the vehicle's GVWR. While upgrading the P-metric tires (on the 1/2 ton trucks) to LT E load rated tires has many positive benefits, and is a good idea for towing, it will do nothing to change the payload rating. The GVWR is based on the frame strength, axle weight ratings, etc. I don't see how the tires factor in to that. For example, the axles and frame will be weighted the same whichever tire you use. I've been in the market for a new TV and the Olivers are kind of right on the edge weight wise between the 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks regarding payload. Makes for a hard choice, but either way, I don't see a truck having a payload below 1600 lbs, or more preferably, as being a suitable TV for an Oliver. That is for my particular use and ease of mind, for safety and keeping myself protected from liability in the event of an accident.   YMMV.

Very curious if Dodge will amend their payload sticker based on different tires.

Dave

That's exactly right.  That info is on a sticker that is labeled Tire and Loading Information, and I suspect that label is what's causing the confusion.  The weights given are for the vehicle and not the tires - changing tires won't increase any of those numbers.  I can't imagine a manufacturer equipping a truck with tires that can't carry the truck's GVWR.

There's also individual axle ratings in addition to the overall payload, which are listed on a separate sticker.

 

[Mike and Carol]

2 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

Oh, and I hate it when I get an itch, it usually costs me $$$$. I've found sharing the itch early on with my wife seems to cure the need to scratch. 

Well, I’ve been scratching for a while and Carol noticed months ago. So, the cure to the itch has had time to develop!  Besides, she really liked that truck. 

[Mike and Carol]

Just now, Overland said:

That's exactly right.  That info is on a sticker that is labeled Tire and Loading Information, and I suspect that label is what's causing the confusion.  The weights given are for the vehicle and not the tires - changing tires won't increase any of those numbers.  I can't imagine a manufacturer equipping a truck with tires that can't carry the truck's GVWR.

There's also individual axle ratings in addition to the overall payload, which are listed on a separate sticker.

 

There are two stickers. A VIN sticker and a tire sticker. Cargo weights don’t match. Confusion!

[Overland]

Here are the two stickers from my truck.  The blue sticker shows the gross vehicle rating (7,050) and the individual axle ratings.  This is the sticker that the DOT really cares about.  The white and yellow sticker is a consumer oriented one that shows your tire info and also the max payload (1,150 - see, I'm worse off than you).  Like Dave said, the difference between the weights on the two stickers is the actual weight of the truck, with all its options.

 

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

Here are the two stickers from my truck.  The blue sticker shows the gross vehicle rating (7,050) and the individual axle ratings.  This is the sticker that the DOT really cares about.  The white and yellow sticker is a consumer oriented one that shows your tire info and also the max payload (1,150 - see, I'm worse off than you).  Like Dave said, the difference between the weights on the two stickers is the actual weight of the truck, with all its options.

 

I think at 1165 lbs the Rebel would work. You’ve been towing with your Raptor for a while!