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Hi folks,

We are having to figure out how to replace our flex ducting from the furnace to the bathroom (looks like 4” dryer vent hose, steps down to 3” for the run to bathroom). The ducts in the cabin are easy to access, but it turns out Oliver engineered this so that the bathroom ducting is not accessible between the refrigerator and the bathroom vanity. Worse, it makes a 90 degree left turn and angles down slightly to get into the bathroom before it turns up again to get to the bathroom vent. Because the hose is fragile, it probably can’t be forced through this turn, nor cleaned in place. Does anyone have any ideas for us?

 

While I am generally pissed that this is built not to be serviceable, we need a solution.

We’ve thought of

-running smaller 2-3” ducting inside the existing ducting and trying to get it around the corner with string, wire, and a vacuum. This would make the bathroom colder than it already is.

-running a different type of hose or duct in replacement that might survive the turns better-but what?

-taking out the shower pan and drilling a hole in the inner Fiberglas hull to improve access to turning the hose around that corner (apparently this hole is standard in 2018 models, but we don’t have one on our 2017)

-drilling two new holes, one in the closet floor and bathroom wall changing, and having the ducting exposed in the closet.

 

If you’re asking why this crazy project, we got our unit from the factory in be winter. Not until I started running AC in spring and started coughing and sneezing like crazy did we realize that the AC is full of Fiberglas dust, in places and amounts that could not have come from running the AC for 2-3 days. We dumped several teaspoons of this dust out of the cold air lines (see what looks like solid white in the clear tubes in photos) . Dometic thinks it was an original factory installation problem.

 

While obviously there is always going to be some settled Fiberglas dust between the hulls, recirculating large amounts of Fiberglas dust through the cabin air in a basically filterless system isn’t going to work for my medical condition. After pulling out the cabinets and the bathroom vanity yesterday I’m not even sure they really cleaned my trailer between production stages like they say, because there are significant piles of dust in several places. Since the propane heat has also been run since the AC was run, that whole system also has to be cleaned. We pulled out the Atwood furnace and hoses and yes there is Fiberglas dust in there too. That’s how we get to this question.

 

I actually bought this unit to have a refuge of controllable clean air quality for medical reasons. While Jason as always is being extremely kind and helpful, the company doesn’t seem to appreciate this is a major issue, and so far has only been willing to pay to have someone blow out the AC. Unfortunately, this kind of AC really can’t be cleaned thoroughly for particles, and it also can’t be filtered (I don’t consider the pantyhose on the intake to be a filter). The problem started with unwillingness to replace the AC and now I’m looking at even more downwstream problems in the furnace and the built in uncleanable ducts. I’ve got two industrial hygienists, a doctor, a handyman, and a Dometic installer involved and I don’t see a good resolution on the horizon where I end up with a trailer that looks like what I should have left the factory with.

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I agree that there’s not enough dust control at the factory. Far too much ends up left between the hulls and inside ducts, etc. And even if you go through and clean as well as you can, a lot of hidden dust will get shaken out during travel, leaving a fresh coat of dust to be cleaned again. For what it’s worth, I do think that it all works itself out over the first several weeks of use. That is of little comfort I’m sure.

 

I’d offer three suggestions:

 

First, you might consider cutting an access panel in the closet floor, which would be easy to cover afterwards. Then remove the shower caddy and I’d think that between the two you would have enough access to replace the ductwork. That’s assuming the duct runs under the closet floor there. To be honest, I don’t know where the front ‘curb’ in the outer hull is in relation to the closet/bath wall. And if there’s enough overlap to access the duct. It may be right at the wall and if so then this obviously isn’t a solution.

 

Second option would be to secure new duct to the end of the old and try pulling it through just by pulling out the old through the shower caddy opening. Maybe it would work though obviously you run the risk of tearing the new duct or losing it halfway through. Honestly though I’d assumed that this is what Oliver would have had in mind for replacement. You might use semi-rigid duct if you try this, which would be more difficult to pull but less likely to tear and you’d get better airflow through it as well.

 

Third, there are companies that do ductwork encapsulation where they spray a sealant into the ductwork to both contain existing dust and seal leaks. But I don’t know if that can be used in flex duct or in ductwork that small.

 

If you find a solution, please do document the work since I’m sure others might want to follow suit. In the back of my mind, I’ve been thinking about how difficult it might be to replace that run with solid ductwork, just to get better airflow into the bath.

 

I agree that dryer duct is a bad solution, though that seems to be standard throughout the industry unfortunately. If you do replace it, you should definitely try to go back with as much solid ductwork as possible, maybe limit the flex duct to the tricky bits snaking around the shower.

 

If none of that seems feasible, then perhaps trying to blow it out with an air line might get most of the dust although rereading your post it sounds like Oliver has tried that.

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Snowball • 256 • 2018 Ford Raptor

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In the original design stage of the Oliver Elite II, the plan was to employ molded-in ductwork. Unfortunately, the RVIA nixed that idea. Personally, I thought it was a great idea.

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Steve, Tali and the dogs: Reacher, Lucy and Rocky plus our beloved Storm and Maggie (both waiting at the Rainbow Bridge) 2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, HULL NUMBER: 0026 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, HULL NUMBER: 0050 2017 Silverado High Country 2500HD Diesel 4x4 

 

      ALAKAZARCACOCTDEFLGAIDILINIAKSKYLAMEMDMA       ABBCMBNSYTsm.jpg

 

 

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Two things come to mind:

make a cone out of aluminum flashing or heavy poster (cardboard) and duct tape to heat outlet in bathroom. The other end of the cone (leaving a smooth hole for string)duct tape to a shop vac. The vac can stay outside in case the filter isn't fine enough to catch all the particles. Tie a crunched up sandwich bag to a piece of string and suck it through the duct work. To the other end of the string tie a plastic bag or a t-shirt scrap. Haul that through the duct along with another piece of string. Then you can pull the cleaning rag back and forth. Tie them well so they don't get lost in there. With a crevice tool other spaces could be cleaned fairly well. I am also going to remove what looks like surplus duct in the water pump compartment. That has to create more resistance to smooth air flow and I see no obvious reason that it is there except somebody didn't want to cut it?

You said your bathroom doesn't seem to heat well? I have noticed when the exhaust fan is running and the door closes it struggles to get enough air, creating a negative air situation. By the same token when the heater is blowing it must create a positive pressure situation and the heated air would struggle to get out and flow smoothly. I also would like a smooth duct as there would be less turbulence and a more efficient flow of air. In my 2017 hull we are going to put a small circular vent in the wall between the bath and the main cabin. Looking at the bathroom door from the outside the vent will be in the upper left side. Being there it should not be a problem and out of the zone where a shower water might intrude. That should help by providing a return for the heated air during heating season, and provide air for the vent when that is running.

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You might be able to get more warm air to the bathroom by closing the cabin louvers a little.

 

Bill

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Bill and Martha

2018 LEII Hull 313

2019 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax with a custom Turboencabulator modification 

 

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The Lukens put out some good word on this a year or so ago. Their tip was to remove the rotating closure element in the bathroom vent. This doubles the area open for hot air to move through the vent. We have done it and it helps. In addition we leave the bathroom door open a half inch at night. There isn’t an air return in the bathroom, and having the door open compensates for that. Good luck with this.

John Shkor, SailorsAshore

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By closing the main cabin vents a little will force more air into the bath. But you shouldn't have to do that in a balanced system. The factory has already reduced the 4" to 3", which creates a venturi effect to the the bath. I always try to be careful in adjusting air flow, knowing moving air is cooling air. The high return still strikes me as the easiest and most efficient method. Go into your bath, turn on the exhaust, close the door, and listen to the fan motor. Open the door and hear the fan motor and blades relax. It becomes obvious it needs more air..

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The ducting in mine is so flimsy that there is no way a new duct could be pulled through it. The attempt would simply wad it all up and destroy it. This hose makes a dryer vent look strong.

 

It's a good idea to restrict the flow in the main cabin to maximize the flow to the bathroom. This is not a system that is balanced on it's own, by it's design. By design, it gets balanced by restricting the lowest restriction vents to bring up the flow in the bathroom. It seems they all must have limited flow to the bathroom. Mine does too.

 

Since the probelm that set off this discussion was contamination in the ductwork, that was free to blow out into the room. And since the replacement of the forward duct seems very difficult, I think it might be a good idea to increase the velocity enogh to blow out the loose fiberglass and cure it that way. This could be done by removing the restrictor in the bathroom and connecting a high powered industrial dust collector or a shop vac to that port. Then turn on the heating fan and the vac at the same time, while shutting off all other vents. This action would increase the flow beyond any normal rate and extract any loose fiberglass. You might also disconect the duct back by the fridge and just use the vacuum to maximize the flow. While doing this you could throw rags into the open duct to help vibrate the duct and cause more turbulence on the way through, knocking any stuck particles loose. you could also reverse the process and suck from near the fridge to backflush it.

 

After this, there will be no loose strands waiting to get blown through by the low velocity heater fan.

 

You should also contact Oliver to get their advice on this and to help them understand that they need to be more careful about contamination.

 

Just blow it out with high velocity air and hope that the low velocity heating air won't be able to send any residual into the room.

 

A "return air" vent, which is simply a hole in the wall between the bath and living area will really help to lower the restiction on the bathroom circuit too. Leaving the bath door ajar lowers the restriction even more than a vent and costs nothing, while still being able to close off the bath from the living area simply by closing the door. It might be nice to have a closeable vent there that could be left open while heating, but closed the rest of the time. Even the bathroom vent fan would work better with that vent open, but the best place for that fan to get air is the side window.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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When the bathroom door and window are closed the bathroom exhaust fan pulls air through the open heat louvers in the main cabin and out of the open heat louver in the bath. I think this is beneficial in that it keeps air moving through that duct when the heat is not being used. Otherwise, moisture laden air might remain in that heat duct along with dust and produce mold. The exhaust fan also pulls cold air from the main cabin into the bathroom when the AC is running and the bath door is closed. For these reasons and to reduce the strain on the exhaust fan I like to leave the louvers fully open. The exhaust fan is also pulling air from somewhere in the hull through the gaps in the corners of the closed cabinet door above the toilet. I like that air is being moved through the hull. A return vent high in the bathroom wall might prevent this air movement. Regarding return air when the heat is running the best solution would be to prop the bathroom door open a little.

 

Bill

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Bill and Martha

2018 LEII Hull 313

2019 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax with a custom Turboencabulator modification 

 

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Back to the OPs original question. If I were in the same situation and I couldn’t get the ductwork clean I think I would replace the ductwork to the cabin louvers and seal off the hard to remove duct to the bathroom. Use a small fan to direct heat to the bathroom or a ceramic heater if plugged into 120VAC. I know it’s not ideal but it might get you through until another reason comes up where you need to open up the hard to access areas.

 

Bill

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Bill and Martha

2018 LEII Hull 313

2019 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax with a custom Turboencabulator modification 

 

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MountainApple, I am sorry for your distress and anger. It is understandable, but I do think your expectations for a medically clean interior were perhaps a little high. I have found significant fiberglass particles in many of the nooks and crannies of “Mouse”.

 

These trailers are not “dust proof” either, in spite of the high quality bulb seals and adjustable latches.  Even if you stay on paved roads exclusively, there will inevitably be some infiltration as you drive. It can be stopped, or at least dramatically decreased, however, please look at this thread.

 

http://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/cabin-pressurization-system-to-prevent-dust-infiltration/

 

I would love to see a factory engineered option for this system, with integrated ductwork. I won’t hold my breath waiting.... I have allergies and carry an efficient HEPA room filtration unit when traveling in forest fire season. I hope adding this system will help my symptoms. There is no reason you couldn’t run the system while you are inside the cabin, to filter incoming air.

 

If you feel like being the ground breaker for this mod, please post pics and commentary and I will gladly follow your lead. Otherwise I will figure this out off-season.

 

Good luck in your duct cleaning.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

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"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

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Back to the OPs original question. If I were in the same situation and I couldn’t get the ductwork clean I think I would replace the ductwork to the cabin louvers and seal off the hard to remove duct to the bathroom. Use a small fan to direct heat to the bathroom or a ceramic heater if plugged into 120VAC. I know it’s not ideal but it might get you through until another reason comes up where you need to open up the hard to access areas.

Bill

 

This may be what we have to do for the short term. Luckily it’s June not October.

 

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What about running a flexable dryer vent brush through the duct by hand before you try to replace it. I have used one on our dryer vent with a drill but would do it by hand with the small brush. If you remove the vanity you could go from both directions with a shop vac hooked to the other end.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Gardus-RLE202-LintEater-10-Piece-Cleaning/dp/B0014CN8Y8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1530406803&sr=8-7&keywords=flexible+dryer+vent+cleaner&dpID=41HEDgikEtL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

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Tom & Cheryl 

LE II #305

2018 GMC 2500HD SLT Duramax

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Mountain,

 

If you can't get it clean with high velocity as I thought might work, you'll probably have to leave the bathroom door open some to share heat with the main cabin and just block the duct. At night, for instance, just leave the door open and the bath will probably heat better than if you were relying on the duct for heat with the door closed.

 

Not sure how much heat you want in the bath, but it's not ever going to be as much or more than what arrives in the main cabin considering the smaller and longer duct and no return air system. For us, when plugged in, I never use the forced air propane system. Always an electric heater and leave the bathroom door open a bit if it's really cold. Works fine. That means the forced air only gets used while boondocking in the winter. That means we're camping and that means a little temperature difference in the bathroom is no big deal. Were camping.

 

I hope my cleaning suggestion works for you.

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John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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There are great minds here! I really appreciate all the suggestions.

 

Raspy, I have a question about your idea to heat the bathroom via the two main cabin vents by leaving the door open. I agree that for bathroom cabin temperature, this might be more effective than using the bathroom ducted vent with the door closed. However what about protecting the water system between the hulls from low temperatures? Do you think this would be viable for using the fresh water tank in winter? My understanding is that the passive heat loss from the ducts in the hull is what protects the water lines, valves, and tanks.

 

Your idea about cutting a hole between the bathroom and dinette wall is an interesting one.

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Hi John.

I want to get to your mod suggestion, but also stop to discuss a fine point for a second. I wouldn’t say I expected a “medically clean” unit from Oliver. I expected that they would provide a “normally” clean product to the standard that they advertise and that we agreed upon pre-sale. As we now really investigate we find drill shavings everywhere-these did not come from road vibration, and clearly show that they did not clean between all stages of assembly and manufacture as they say that they do. I expect this sort of thing these days, which is why my work order was accompanied by a list written up by the office of special requirements, including special attention to he regular cleaning (I’ll explain the rest below). While I am not so concerned about drill shavings I am concerned about inhalable Fiberglas dust, which is a possible carcinogen per California, and absolutely a respiratory irritant.

 

If anyone is wondering why buy a Fiberglas trailer if you’re concerned about the safety of the material, many materials are safe by one exposure method but not another. Intact Fiberglas is a non concern, while powdered inhalable fiberglas is another story.

 

As I mentioned above, in my case, and I think you’ll be seeing an increasing number of people like me in the forums as there is a whole movement of people with environmental illnesses using RVs, the whole premise of the transaction with Oliver was based, from initial inquiry to finish, around the understanding that they were customizing my unit in light of special needs.

 

Meaning they agreed to take some reasonable measures within the scope of their capabilities that were agreed upon before the order was placed. All of the following were negotiated in relationship to medical needs: the specs on the cushions and flooring, the between stage cleaning and chemicals allowed for cleaning, who was allowed to enter the finished unit after production (no one), and how it was to be parked to allow offgassing.

 

I’ll give props to anyone who has a theory on how such significant quantities of dust could get into the cold air lines. The rest of the contamination seems likely to have come from being run in a dusty location in the factory or on the trailer when the interior must have looked like a flour mill- the cabin interior would have had to be filthy before the AC was first turned on.

 

Further my local AC technician was perplexed- the AC unit should have actually cleared out the dust inside the casing while it was first run for 2 days by me, but we still find all this residue. The intake filter did not have any residue in it, so it didn’t come from the cabin air after delivery.

 

So whether I have a medical problem or not I think is actually not relevant to the Oliver side of the problem. They poorly installed a very expensive appliance, resulting in an air unit that blows an air irritant, and they’re not getting behind fixing the problem. Which turns out is very extensive because bad installation of the AC requires work on the furnace and the ducting.

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Back to Johns idea regarding dust infiltration. If I understand correctly you primarily want your mod to function while towing. It does sound like that oxide desert dust is a thing to be respected.

 

If you’re already giving up cabin space to an air filter anyway, as I am, what about hooking up an air filtration system to the maxx fan in the cabin, set on intake, to create positive pressure in the cabin? I guess this would be a stationary rather than mobile solution. But some of the consumer hepa filter companies like IQ air and Allerair offer either intake hoods (for nail salons and industrial work) or intake vents. I’d imagine some of the grower products like can fan could also be ducted. One of these could be attached to the opening of the maxx fan on the ceiling. Essentially you’d be filtering your intake air and creating positive pressure, which might prevent dust intrusion.

 

I can’t remember the specs but I wonder if they could be run off of solar.

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There are great minds here! I really appreciate all the suggestions.

Raspy, I have a question about your idea to heat the bathroom via the two main cabin vents by leaving the door open. I agree that for bathroom cabin temperature, this might be more effective than using the bathroom ducted vent with the door closed. However what about protecting the water system between the hulls from low temperatures? Do you think this would be viable for using the fresh water tank in winter? My understanding is that the passive heat loss from the ducts in the hull is what protects the water lines, valves, and tanks.

Your idea about cutting a hole between the bathroom and dinette wall is an interesting one.

 

I agree that you would have less freeze protection if you shut off the forward duct. But not much and some of the most vulnerable stuff is in the rear, such as the water inlet piping and outdoor shower. Up forward, the most vulnerable is the bathroom sink faucet and the toilet flush valve. These two would be protected by warm air in the room and not the ducted heat. I know the toilet flush and sink valves are vulnerable because I broke both of those with freezing, and nothing else.

 

Since you have a lot of fiberglass dust and since you apparantly addressed air quality issues with Oliver in advance, I think you should contact them and tell them what is going on. Clearly, they contaminated the ducting. This may be a normal situation, but I've never noticed it in mine. I would not like it either and my approach would be to flush it out with high velocity air after removing the bathroom restrictor.

 

Let us know how this turns out.

 

 

John


"I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt."


LE2 #92 (sold),   Black Series HQ19   

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I’ll give props to anyone who has a theory on how such significant quantities of dust could get into the cold air lines.

 

Ok I’ll take a stab at it. What you are calling cold air lines are the condensate drain lines I think. I think all of our roof top units are installed and run without the air distribution box being installed on the inside of the cabin. The return air filter is held by the air distribution box. The roof top units were run while (dust producing) operations were performed in the cabin. The unfiltered air was drawn through the evaporator coil where the dust was deposited on the coil fins. Condensate forms on the evaporator coil and drips into the condensate collection receptacles on each side of the roof top unit. The water/dust mixture flows through the condensate drain lines at low velocity. The dust settles out and remains in the lines.

 

There is white residue in my condensate drain lines also. I don’t like it either. Again, this is MY THEORY as to how that white residue got there.

 

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Bill

 

 

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Bill and Martha

2018 LEII Hull 313

2019 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax with a custom Turboencabulator modification 

 

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Back to Johns idea regarding dust infiltration. If I understand correctly you primarily want your mod to function while towing. It does sound like that oxide desert dust is a thing to be respected.

If you’re already giving up cabin space to an air filter anyway, as I am, what about hooking up an air filtration system to the maxx fan in the cabin, set on intake, to create positive pressure in the cabin? I guess this would be a stationary rather than mobile solution. But some of the consumer hepa filter companies like IQ air and Allerair offer either intake hoods (for nail salons and industrial work) or intake vents. I’d imagine some of the grower products like can fan could also be ducted. One of these could be attached to the opening of the maxx fan on the ceiling. Essentially you’d be filtering your intake air and creating positive pressure, which might prevent dust intrusion.

I can’t remember the specs but I wonder if they could be run off of solar.

 

I considered adding a replaceable filter under the main fan, but then you have dust and debris falling into the cabin when you change it. The big negative is that the shape of the Max Air cover and the rear-angled inner “flap” serve to suck air out of the cabin while underway, passively. I seriously doubt that you could get enough backwards airflow to pressurize the inside adequately.

 

Ideally you would use a ram air effect for the incoming air, such a forward facing scoop on the end of the inlet snorkel. Unfortunately they function only at moderate to high speeds and I need a system that will operate while barely moving. A reasonably high flow axial fan sucking the sort-of clean air from above the dog house should work great, as proven by a large number of Aussie “outbackers”. The filter used is not HEPA but it is highly efficient at separating particles centrifugally before they even approach the filter element, and you routinely dump the dirt out of the bottom of the can through a rubber valve, by squeezing it. Adding a cyclone pre-filter at the top opening increases efficiency even more.

 

I have given this lots of though over the last three years, I really don’t see a really effective alternative.

 

This is the test bed for air filtration, the bull dust of the Outback.... if it is ineffective you either destroy your engine or go through dozens of filters. Getting the intake up high is the answer.

 

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John Davies

 

Spokane WA

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"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

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