Battle Born Lithium Ion 12 Volt Batteries in an Oliver?

[AndrewK]

I must agree with Overland, the initial outlay is not a drop in the bucket.  For us the value comes form:

•  Zero maintenance - Zero
•  Almost zero loss in total amperage while in storage
•  Much faster charging times
  •  Can be charge at up to 50% of the total battery bank capacity/hour. 
  • On AC, we can charge at approximately 55 amps/hour, all the way to full!
  • Less generator use when solar is insufficient.
• With our Victron battery monitor, we know exactly what our state of charge is at any moment
  •  No more concern about having enough capacity to make it through the night 

This all amounts to no battery worries for us and for that it has been well worth it.

Also, Battle Born makes batteries that are designed to be installed vertically that allow for easier installation without having to mount the horizontally designed battery vertically.

Andrew

Edited January 5, 2020 by AndrewK

[Janis]

On 6/1/2019 at 2:00 AM, Overland said:

Yep. You could get the credit on both. When we did ours, we took the credit for all our panels, batteries, charger, charge controller, inverter, monitors, wiring, etc. Saved us a ton of money.

 

Most don’t realize that you can take the credit on the factory solar option and battery upgrades when you buy new.

Overland, for the solar credit, how did you determine the price paid for all solar related materials and labor that were included in the EII base price, in other words the standard stuff?

[Overland]

My trailer didn't really come with much on that side of the electrical.  Literally four cables coming from the solar coiled up on the floor.  That just left a base battery and the charger, both of which I replaced.  So I didn't try to take a credit for anything standard.  The solar package was an option of course, so I had that figure, and everything else I bought separately.  Buying Oliver's options, I think you could take the tax credit on the solar package, battery upgrade, and inverter.  Maybe even the generator port if you were to opt for that.  Perhaps even a generator?  That's probably pushing it, lol.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Overland

[STEVEnBETTY]

I can confirm overlands comment on the tax deductibility of the factory installation of the solar package, battery upgrade and the inverter for the tax year 2017, didn’t try including the generator. On a side note, “my” theory on the change of battery suppliers is related to the failure rate of the Trojan agm batteries, mine included, I have since switched to Trojan t105’s ( wet cells).

[topgun2]

StevenBetty - 

I would say, "Welcome to the dark side", but, I know that you were already there. 😄

Bill

[STEVEnBETTY]

There’s always “1” in a crowd

Steve

[Janis]

On 3/10/2020 at 3:01 PM, Overland said:

My trailer didn't really come with much on that side of the electrical.  Literally four cables coming from the solar coiled up on the floor.  That just left a base battery and the charger, both of which I replaced.  So I didn't try to take a credit for anything standard.  The solar package was an option of course, so I had that figure, and everything else I bought separately.  Buying Oliver's options, I think you could take the tax credit on the solar package, battery upgrade, and inverter.  Maybe even the generator port if you were to opt for that.  Perhaps even a generator?  That's probably pushing it, lol.

Thank you Overland for your reply. Our research at Intuit's site shows 3 ways to deduct a generator--a doctor's Rx for medical equipment is one way, unfortunately or fortunately we are too healthy!

Has anyone on this forum published a Youtube video on their install of Lithium (BB) into their Oliver? Additionally, does anyone know whether the EII 2020 converter/charger is compatible with lithium batteries? We didn’t find a manual in Oliver University for it. Our research shows it may be Progressive Dynamics and a model number would be helpful.

[Overland]

Oliver uses their PD 4000 power centers.  I believe it’s the PD4045 but they may have switched to the PD4060 - same unit but higher charge rate.  Progressive dynamics now sells a lithium specific charger -  but before they did, Battleborn said that the standard PD charger worked fine. So it might be worth a call to Battleborn to see what they say. I called them a couple of times when I did my install and they were extremely helpful.  I think that you can buy just the charger section of the PD unit if you want/need to swap it out for their lithium version - it’s an easy job to do if you go that route. 
 

 No video for my install but I can send you photos if you want. But Battleborn have a vertical battery now that may be easier to install. Mine required placing the batteries on end, which just made the connections a real pain to bolt together.  

Edited March 13, 2020 by Overland

[AndrewK]

Janis, I have installed two 100Ah Battle Born batteries, changed out the Progressive Dynamics converter/charger with the PD4060LI and installed a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor.   The batteries and converter/charger change out are very easy.  The converter/changer involves one screw and five wires.  

Battle Born recommended the change out of the converter/charger to get the most out of the batteries.  The charging parameters for LiFePO4 batteries is very different from Lead Acid and AGM batteries.    

I have helped a few Oliver owners and installers do the same.  

I would be happy to walk you through it.

If you would like to discuss further, please message me.

Andrew

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by AndrewK

[Janis]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:19 PM, Overland said:

Oliver uses their PD 4000 power centers.  I believe it’s the PD4045 but they may have switched to the PD4060 - same unit but higher charge rate.  Progressive dynamics now sells a lithium specific charger -  but before they did, Battleborn said that the standard PD charger worked fine. So it might be worth a call to Battleborn to see what they say. I called them a couple of times when I did my install and they were extremely helpful.  I think that you can buy just the charger section of the PD unit if you want/need to swap it out for their lithium version - it’s an easy job to do if you go that route. 
 

 No video for my install but I can send you photos if you want. But Battleborn have a vertical battery now that may be easier to install. Mine required placing the batteries on end, which just made the connections a real pain to bolt together.  

Thank you for your very helpful information!  We will call PD, BB, and OTT to confirm everything as suggested. As we get closer to our install we may PM you and request a few pictures.  Currently we plan to install 3 standard BB’s (not GC version) so it will likely be an easier install than yours. 

[Janis]

On 3/12/2020 at 10:54 PM, AndrewK said:

Janis, I have installed two 100Ah Battle Born batteries, changed out the Progressive Dynamics converter/charger with the PD4060LI and installed a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor.   The batteries and converter/charger change out are very easy.  The converter/changer involves one screw and five wires.  

Battle Born recommended the change out of the converter/charger to get the most out of the batteries.  The charging parameters for LiFePO4 batteries is very different from Lead Acid and AGM batteries.    

I have helped a few Oliver owners and installers do the same.  

I would be happy to walk you through it.

If you would like to discuss further, please message me.

Andrew

 

Andrew, thank you for your very helpful information, pictures, and offer to help! My husband, Bob and I, are somewhat handy and it sounds like we could do this project ourselves with some help from you and Overland. Is the charge converter unit mounted on the backside of the circuit breaker panel? The Victron Battery Monitor is on our procurment list.  Does it come with everything necessary to install—hopefully without drilling into the fiberglass.  We’re not clear on how this component gets installed but we can discuss this as we get closer to trading the 4 wet cells for 3 standard BB’s the end of next month or May. 

[AndrewK]

Janis, the converter/charger is on the left side of the power panel and is removed by removing the power panel cover, one screw and five wires.  The install of the new converter/charger is just the opposite. 

As for the battery monitor.  My installation required two crimp on wire lugs, a small piece of PVC foam board and some epoxy glue.  The only drilling into the fiberglass was the hole for the monitor.  The Victron battery monitor can be connected to a cell phone via Bluetooth and the Victron Connect app.  If you prefer to monitor your batteries from the app, the monitor can be installed out of sight and not require any hole to be drilled.  

Andrew

 

[Janis]

On 3/16/2020 at 4:40 PM, AndrewK said:

Janis, the converter/charger is on the left side of the power panel and is removed by removing the power panel cover, one screw and five wires.  The install of the new converter/charger is just the opposite. 

As for the battery monitor.  My installation required two crimp on wire lugs, a small piece of PVC foam board and some epoxy glue.  The only drilling into the fiberglass was the hole for the monitor.  The Victron battery monitor can be connected to a cell phone via Bluetooth and the Victron Connect app.  If you prefer to monitor your batteries from the app, the monitor can be installed out of sight and not require any hole to be drilled.  

Andrew

 

Andrew, thank you for the additional information. We are considering the Victron  Connect App.

[mossemi]

This is my Victron 712 install under the dinette seat and I use the Victron Connect app.

 

[Janis]

Mossemi, excellent, thank you for the picture.

Today Oliver confirmed that our charge converter and inverter are lithium compatible and therefore, no changes are necessary to the onboard equipment.  We only need to change two settings on the inverter and converter switching them to the lithium option.

 

[AndrewK]

Janis,

I don't want to say Oliver is wrong but, unless the inverter is an inverter/charger, or they are installing something completely new, you will need to change the charger/converter.

I am not aware of Progressive Dynamics making a converter/charger that is adjustable.  It is either set up to charge wet cell/AGM batteries or lithium batteries and their charging profiles are completely different.

When Oliver is referring to the "charger", they may mean the Zamp solar controller.  It is a charger and it can be set to lithium.

If you aren't sure, I would suggest calling the experts at Battle Born.

Andrew 

[BackofBeyond]

I'll check my manual, what else have I to do today, under duress and rain...

Ain't no Covid 19 around this casa.

 

[mossemi]

7 hours ago, AndrewK said:

Janis,

I don't want to say Oliver is wrong but, unless the inverter is an inverter/charger, or they are installing something completely new, you will need to change the charger/converter.

I am not aware of Progressive Dynamics making a converter/charger that is adjustable.  It is either set up to charge wet cell/AGM batteries or lithium batteries and their charging profiles are completely different.

When Oliver is referring to the "charger", they may mean the Zamp solar controller.  It is a charger and it can be set to lithium.

If you aren't sure, I would suggest calling the experts at Battle Born.

Andrew 

According to the OTT website, the 2020 inverter is a Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 which is Lithium friendly.

Mossey

[Overland]

7 hours ago, AndrewK said:

Janis,

I don't want to say Oliver is wrong but, unless the inverter is an inverter/charger, or they are installing something completely new, you will need to change the charger/converter.

I am not aware of Progressive Dynamics making a converter/charger that is adjustable.  It is either set up to charge wet cell/AGM batteries or lithium batteries and their charging profiles are completely different.

When Oliver is referring to the "charger", they may mean the Zamp solar controller.  It is a charger and it can be set to lithium.

If you aren't sure, I would suggest calling the experts at Battle Born.

Andrew 

I'm not sure that's true.  Before PD had a specific lithium profile, Battleborn used to say that the standard PD4000 was fine.  And the charge profile for the standard charger is 14.4v bulk and 13.6v float, which is precisely what Battleborn recommends for programmable chargers.  I think the only real difference may be that the standard charger does a trickle charge, which isn't necessary for lithiums, but is unlikely to hurt anything.  I'd definitely talk to Battleborn about it - I'm sure they'd say that a specific lithium charger is better, but by how much is really the question.  I'm 90% sure they'll say it's fine.  On the other hand, you're talking about maybe a $60 part and 30 minutes to swap it out, so that's a pretty low threshold for deciding whether to do it.

I'm curious what a lithium option might be on an inverter.  Maybe it changes the shutoff voltage number?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Overland

[Overland]

On 3/18/2020 at 1:27 PM, mossemi said:

This is my Victron 712 install under the dinette seat and I use the Victron Connect app.

 

Definitely place the monitor inside the hull like Mike did - you'll use the buttons once while setting it up and again...never?  Maybe if you swap out or add batteries someday.  Speaking as someone who has zero problems cutting a hole in his Ollie, I regret having cut a completely unnecessary one for the BMV.  Save the hole cutting for adding a Victron Color Control someday, since it actually has a useful display.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by Overland

[mossemi]

PD's lithium charger module, PD4045LICSV, for the Inteli-Power 4000 series Mighty Mini is $148 at Leisure Time Distributing.

PD also offers a Charge Wizard dongle that allows manual boost mode charging and its $18.  This only works on late model Mighty Mini's.

The new Oliver inverter option is also a lithium charger.  It is also a transfer switch.

Mossey

[Overland]

More than I thought then.  I think if it were me, I'd talk to Battleborn and if they said the regular PD4000 is fine, even if not ideal, I'd probably stick with it.  Like the Lifeline rep told me at last year's rally - it's great to have the ideal setup, but unless your needs are extreme or your charging profile and habits are wildly off base, you're unlikely to hurt anything or notice any appreciable loss in lifespan from your batteries.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by Overland

[mossemi]

Overland,

I agree with your analysis and that’s why I chose the $18 dongle mod based on PD's recommendation.  When I tried to install it, my charger did not have the necessary port to plug the dongle into.  Back to square one, so I traded in my dongle on a lithium charger module.

But going back to Janis's lithium questions, it looks like she is getting a 2020 Ollie with the new Xantrex inverter/charger/ transfer switch that supports lithium charging according to the specs I read and that agrees with the information she got from Oliver.  So she would not need to upgrade the PD equipment if the Xantrex equipment was installed to its full capabilities.  But it does seem that she may have 2 charging modules with 1 in the Xantrex and another in the PD Inteli-Power Mighty Mini.

Update on my Victron BMV-712 installation.  The picture is of my temporary install from last spring and it has worked well enough that it will stay there until I need that space for something else.

[Overland]

Ah, I didn't catch that in your earlier post.  If Oliver has moved to an integrated inverter/charger then that's a big upgrade.

edit - well I thought it was a big upgrade.  It doesn't look like that Xantrex unit has power assist, nor the networking of a Victron system.  It looks like it has slightly faster charging @80 amps, but unless I'm missing something, the only advantage I see for the buyer is the switchable lithium profile.  It'll be easier for Oliver to install, of course - at least from scratch.  It'll be a bit of a pain as an upgrade.

Come on, Oliver - you're just one step away from a modern electrical system.  You can do it!

Edited March 20, 2020 by Overland

[mossemi]

I just went through this exercise over the last 5 months, as I had 1 bad T105 battery due to my laziness and it's not usually smart to replace 1 out of 4 batteries.  AGM replacements were over $1300 for 4, so I went to 2 BB's and theoretically gave up 25 Ah.  That lead to my charger replacement.  
Then I found out that my inverter would not run my microwave any longer.  It ran small items but crashed with the microwave load.  So I explored all inverter options and looked hard at the Victron Phoenix inverter, but it was nearly as much as the MultiPlus 2000w. If I knew I needed an inverter and a charger, the Victron MultiPlus would have made sense, but the PD upgrade went in with the batteries.  So I talked myself out of the Victron options and bought another Xantrex Prowatt 2000w inverter for $350.

To your point about OTT's upgrading to the Victron options, there is only about a $500 difference in street prices, between the 2000w Xantrex Freedom XC and a 2000w Victron MultiPlus.

Which brings us back to woulda, coulda, shoulda. 
 

And the good news is, Tom Brady is coming to Tampa!👍👍👍

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by mossemi
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