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KISS with the Solar Pro Package?


Jairon

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58 minutes ago, Susan Huff said:

We are still undecided on lithium pkg vs solar/AGM pkg.  I calculate the cost difference at $3,600 (solar pkg + soft start = $5,400).  Plus additional 1000w inverted power.  So, is it worth an $3,600 to get lithium?

My thoughts:

1.  Do we need 1000w more inverted power? 

 - If you're planning to run the A/C off the Lithiums.

2. AGM - 220 available ah (440ah @  50% discharge)  Lithium - 340 available ah (400ah  85% discharge)  Would we use 120 additional ah?

 - See # 1

3. Battery life: Lithium = 2x AGM life?

 - More ++ than 2x

4. Cost of battery replacement - 2 lithium vs 4 AGM?

 - Probably 3.5x

5. Weight - not sure of the differential between Oliver supplied 4 AGM and 2 Lithium

 - 275 lb vs about 75 lb

6. Maintenance, monitoring etc - no experience with lithium

 - A little more with Lithium (temps etc.)

7. Solar battery charging - our RV experience has been with 200w flat panel (inefficient?) solar panels with two 12v flooded house batteries, mostly in marginal sun exposure.  This setup barely kept batteries topped off with basic onboard draws, including macerator toilet and no additional inverter usage.

 - This is a good reason why you need the additional amp hours. But...there will be an additional solution to your flat panels in the near future.

8. High watt power usage would be appliances - toaster oven (1800w), inverter burner (100-1800w), electric kettle (1500w), hair dryer (1800w).  No microwave and would use generator for necessary AC.  Other power demands - lights, LP ignition, fans, water pump, cell phone and electronics charging, phantom draws.  We only occasionally use TV.

The additional power supplied by the lithium package is attractive, though I'm sure we could manage just fine without it; the solar package would certainly be a definite improvement over our current system. 

Is it worth $3,600 for power we might not use?  

 - The money is something only you can determine. You can manage without it, especially if you have an external source of electricity (generator, hookup.)  Here may a question, the answer to which, will tell you what you need to know.

 - Will the majority of your camping be done boondocking or hooked up in an RV park? Our ratio is about 95% boondocking so it would definitely be advantageous to us. If it were 50/50, not so much. Only you can answer that question.

 

Edited by ScubaRx
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Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

             801469912_StatesVisitedTaliandSteve08-23-2021-I.jpg.26814499292ab76ee55b889b69ad3ef0.jpg1226003278_StatesVisitedTaliandSteve08-23-2021-H.jpg.dc46129cb4967a7fd2531b16699e9e45.jpg

 

 

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1.  Do we need 1000w more inverted power? You would need it if you want to run the AC for a short period without running a generator - for example, at a rest stop for lunch.  It might also help when running 2 appliances at once, though my experience is that the second appliance almost always pushes you over.  But it's allowed us to do things like install a 120v stereo system without having to worry if that plus the toaster oven or coffee maker will overload the inverter.

2. AGM - 220 available ah (440ah @  50% discharge)  Lithium - 340 available ah (400ah  85% discharge)  Would we use 120 additional ah? I get 90% out of mine, for 360 Ah but I can't say if Oliver's batteries will be the same.  

3. Battery life: Lithium = 2x AGM life?  More like 3 times.

4. Cost of battery replacement - 2 lithium vs 4 AGM?  times 3

5. Weight - not sure of the differential between Oliver supplied 4 AGM and 2 Lithium. It's roughly half the weight

6. Maintenance, monitoring etc - no experience with lithium  If the batteries Oliver sells are like my Battleborns, then maintenance is zero.  They have built in electronics that prevent overcharging, draining, etc.

7. Solar battery charging - our RV experience has been with 200w flat panel (inefficient?) solar panels with two 12v flooded house batteries, mostly in marginal sun exposure.  This setup barely kept batteries topped off with basic onboard draws, including macerator toilet and no additional inverter usage.  See this post - 

 

8. High watt power usage would be appliances - toaster oven (1800w), inverter burner (100-1800w), electric kettle (1500w), hair dryer (1800w).  No microwave and would use generator for necessary AC.  Other power demands - lights, LP ignition, fans, water pump, cell phone and electronics charging, phantom draws.  We only occasionally use TV.

The additional power supplied by the lithium package is attractive, though I'm sure we could manage just fine without it; the solar package would certainly be a definite improvement over our current system. 

Is it worth $3,600 for power we might not use?  Only you can say.

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Here's another thought on the solar/lithium question, which is that personally, I think that the new F150 with a built-in generator adds an interesting new kink to the equation.  

I'm a big proponent of solar, and my goal with our trailer was to be able to go without a generator - and we've been quite successful with that - however, if I were buying a new truck today, like I did when we bought our Oliver, and that truck already came with a nice built in generator, I'd give much more thought towards putting my money somewhere else other than solar and a large battery bank.  I mean, let's face it - if you have a generator then you don't need any more solar or battery than Oliver's standard offering.  Especially with the quick charge capabilities of LFP batteries (I can charge at 120 amps), I think I could easily keep our batteries charged with 30 minutes of generator time a day, even with half the solar we currently have.  Most days, surely less.  Divide that into 15 minutes in the morning and 15 at night, and that's really not that much generator noise and fumes to endure.  And if you've got a generator sitting there that you don't have to drag out, gas up, etc., that makes the option of using one much more tempting.  

I think if I were configuring my trailer today, I'd do the standard packages with the cheapest battery offering, and I'd replace the batteries with 200Ah of LFP, maybe 300, and then rip out the electrics and replace it with all the same Victron stuff I've got now.  

Edited by Overland
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2 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

 

Thanks for the info @ScubaRx 

So, it seems the cost/life of AGM vs Lithium is a wash, or at least not so much a factor to consider.  Weight difference is substantial, but then I think it would be hard to exceed the GVW of the trailer, considering the onboard storage capacity.  Not sure what you mean by, "But...there will be an additional solution to your flat panels in the near future".  Perhaps you misunderstood: I was referring to the inefficient flush mount flexible panels glued to the top of our current RV.

Sorry, I neglected to mention our camping style.  Currently we are about 50/50 boondocking/hookups.  That being said, the deciding factor is our power limitations.  With very conservative power use, we can boondock about a week, stationary, with just occasional generator use.  That being said, if we had more power available, we would do much more "off-grid" camping, since we like being where we can best enjoy nature.  However, I expect more power wouldn't really extend the length of time we could boondock, but rather the increase the appliances we would be able to use during that time. Water seems to be the biggest factor in determining how long we can stay in one place without power.  Even with available potable water, waste water storage is limiting and we don't want a composting toilet.  With this in mind, I'm thinking "no" to the lithium upgrade.  Although it would eliminate the worry about battery levels, I'm not sure the cost is warranted.

 

Maybe someone will share their experience regarding the limits of onboard fresh water/waste water in a boondocking situation.

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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Water is always our limiting factor in length of time boondocking. Other than Quartzsite, we are never in one place for more than 4-5 days. Even when we are water is not far from us. With their unique (in the Fiberglass Trailer world) system of valves that allow your on-board pump to put water into the fresh tank from any source, if you can get water to the trailer, you can utilize it. We carry two 20 Liter military water cans with us for just that purpose as well as a 10 Liter can just for the dogs.

Steve, Tali and our dog Rocky plus our beloved Storm, Maggie, Lucy and Reacher (all waiting at the Rainbow Bridge)

2008 Legacy Elite I - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #026 | 2014 Legacy Elite II - Outlaw Oliver, Hull #050 | 2022 Silverado High Country 3500HD SRW Diesel 4x4 

 

             801469912_StatesVisitedTaliandSteve08-23-2021-I.jpg.26814499292ab76ee55b889b69ad3ef0.jpg1226003278_StatesVisitedTaliandSteve08-23-2021-H.jpg.dc46129cb4967a7fd2531b16699e9e45.jpg

 

 

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How long you can make water, and black and grey capacity last, is seriously a matter of controls. And tv payload.

We carry several square stacking five gallon water containers of potable water. We set one on the tongue while camping, and it's the water station for refilling water bottles, tea kettle for making coffee, and often for washing dishes. And brushing teeth. 

This really amplifies the fresh water tank, which we only use for showers, toilet flushing, hand washing, etc.. sometimes dishwashing. I usually heat water in a tea kettle to wash dishes.  Two pans. If we're short, I can reuse rinse water for wash, and rinse the next batch with boiling water.

Scubarx set up a switch for refilling the fresh tank, which is really great.  We have to go into the seat, upset the bed, etc., to do so, so we try to limit that activity .

How long the grey and black capacity last depends on available facilities.  We use a pit or vault toilet, if there is one. Outdoor shower if it's ok. Navy showers or bird baths. Camp sink for dumping dishwater if there is one. In bear country, you absolutely don't want to dump water near your campsite, nor anyone else's. We often camp in bear country, so it's a big consideration for us. Out west, in the desert, probably not so much. We don't camp in the desert much. I'm not a fan.

Collection tank capacity (grey and black) is more limiting than fresh water for us, with auxiliary 5 gallon jugs in the truck. If there are no other toilet or shower or dumping facilities available,  7 to 12 days is about it, for 2 people. Can sometimes stretch longer, but it's not easy. We've never carried a blue boy. We do have a small one, but never figured out where, or how, to carry it. Someone else with the same limitations gave it to us.

Sherry

 

 

2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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10 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Collection tank capacity (grey and black) is more limiting than fresh water for us, with auxiliary 5 gallon jugs in the truck. If there are no other toilet or shower or dumping facilities available,  7 to 12 days is about it, for 2 people. Can sometimes stretch longer, but it's not easy. We've never carried a blue boy. We do have a small one, but never figured out where, or how, to carry it. Someone else with the same limitations gave it to us.

Sherry

 

 

I agree - the #1 boondocking limitation is waste water capacity.  10 days seems to be the sweet spot for us in our current RV, with a much larger black tank capacity of 30gal), using holding tanks for flushing and occasional showers.  I'm thinking 7 days in the Oliver. 

I find it helps to do dishes outside as I'm less apt to put water in the grey tank (reserved for showers).  Use available vault toilets (we've noticed, with Covid precautions, these are much cleaner than otherwise) and reserve onboard toilet for nighttime use.  If fresh water conservation is in order, we save dish rinse water for flushing. 

Think of it as tent camping with a comfortable bed and private toilet.

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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If you rarely camp off grid - its a waste of $$. If on the other hand, you spend the majority of time out - in the non grid world - it may make sense - We were out about 60 days last year - 45 or more were of grid, and usually in the wild, but lets say we spent 30 days free - $900 savings - so you can do the math - if you keep the Oliver a while, and go a  lot, off grid - you'll eventually see a return that comes close. Now that doesn't come close to putting a value on the cool factor of staying in places that are just of the chart for WoW factor.

Our limiting factor with composting toilet - is water- and that is easily extended. 

RB

Edited by BackofBeyond
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Cindy,  Russell and  "Harley dog" . Home is our little farm near Winchester TN

2018 Oliver Legacy Elite II - 2018 GMC 2500 Duramax 

"Die young - As late as possible"
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2 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

If you rarely camp off grid - its a waste of $$. If on the other hand, you spend the majority of time out - in the non grid world - it may make sense - We were out about 60 days last year - 45 or more were of grid, and usually in the wild, but lets say we spent 30 days free - $900 savings - so you can do the math - if you keep the Oliver a while, and go a  lot, off grid - you'll eventually see a return that comes close. Now that doesn't come close to putting a value on the cool factor of staying in places that are just of the chart for WoW factor.

Our limiting factor with composting toilet - is water- and that is easily extended. 

RB

Good point made . . . . . with the cost recovery from camping "free".

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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There was some discussion some time ago  Coy I believe his name is. The  talk was about the development of the solar system for the Oliver that auto tracks the sun. Has there been any up date on this system?

Grant  2022 GMC Denali 2500 HD 2019  Elite 11😎

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On 7/24/2020 at 9:59 AM, SeaDawg said:

We were told that our rv qualifies as a 2nd home. As does our boat. Bath. Cooking facilities. Sleeping quarters .

Ditto with the boat.

Verify with your own cpa. 

Sherry

I read the guidelines and it says, for a vacation home, the credit is prorated based on how much of the year you spend in the home.  This seems odd, since the solar energy is not used in a given year, only the credit is claimed during the year following the installation occurs.  Benefits continue year after year.

Has anyone claimed the credit?  I'm wondering how to calculate the credit - what is the cost basis?  - cost of total package, panels, batteries, controllers, inverter?  How would one determine the cost of the Oliver Lithium package?

 

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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Again,  I  would encourage you to speak with your own cpa. 

What you are discussing is quite possibly related to vacation homes that are rented part of the year.

Sherry

  • Thanks 1

2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12

Florida and Western North Carolina, or wherever the truck goes....

400 watts solar. DC compressor fridge. No inverter. 2 x 105 ah agm batteries .  Life is good.


        
 

 

 

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On 7/30/2020 at 5:56 PM, SeaDawg said:

Again,  I  would encourage you to speak with your own cpa. 

What you are discussing is quite possibly related to vacation homes that are rented part of the year.

Sherry

Thanks . . . . .  I have a message in to my tax advisor.  

Edit: My tax advisor agrees the RV is considered a second home, for tax purposes, with no prorate for usage if it is not rented part of the year.  Based on this, she is comfortable claiming the solar tax credit for the cost of the solar/lithium pkg . . . . . however . . . . .

. . . . . there is one restriction that might prove problematic:  language suggests that the power source used to charge the batteries must be 100% solar.  If charging comes from other sources (shore power, generator, tow vehicle), the tax credit must be prorated based on the percentage of solar charging vs other sources.  If one has to prove this, to satisfy the IRS, the tax credit becomes less attractive.  I'm not sure how you would document the source of power used for charging.  It seems that applying the credit to an RV as a vacation home is like comparing apples to oranges - solar power for a stationary vacation home vs a vacation home that is mobile with multiple sources of battery charging going on.  The language just doesn't fit both scenarios and I see no practical  way to define the amount of charge supplied from each of these sources.  

Edited by Susan Huff

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

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