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Breaking Subzero | Oliver Furnace Mod


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Neat! do you have a link for the flexible insulation material you used in the outside access doors? 

You might want to think about sealing off the big screened vent holes in your battery door.

Wouldn’t it be NICE if Oliver would build these trailers with molded in place fiberglass air ducts going through all those locations?

Thanks,

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited by John E Davies
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"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

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11 hours ago, John E Davies said:

Neat! do you have a link for the flexible insulation material you used in the outside access doors? 

You might want to think about sealing off the big screened vent holes in your battery door.

Wouldn’t it be NICE if Oliver would build these trailers with molded in place fiberglass air ducts going through all those locations?

Thanks,

John Davies

Spokane WA

   I think it would be great if they would harden there four season trailer by installing the additional duct work, not much extra expense and fairly easy install if it was incorporated in the manufacturing process. Due to the recent trend of switching to lithium batteries we have been reminded of the key role that temperature plays in all forms of batteries. I think if Oliver heated the battery storage compartment and kept it sealed to the inside and vented to the outside they could accommodate any battery option. Then for lithium simply install an insulating material at the opening of the compartment during the winter and remove during the summer. Plus all the other benefits of warmer bathroom and no freeze up worries with the out side wash station, water fill inlets.

To answer your question about the insulation material it was something I had on hand. The vent holes in the battery door I want to play with that during the warmer months to see if I can keep the lithium battery  at the proper temperature.

As far as the outside storage compartment door which also covers the outside wash station I did not have to use any additional insulation.

 

I appreciate the compliment

Paul 

 

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Paul, is the insulation sheet perhaps for a residential furnace or duct? I am trying to get an idea of R value, type of material and where to get it.

John Davies

Spokane WA

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

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49 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Paul, is the insulation sheet perhaps for a residential furnace or duct? I am trying to get an idea of R value, type of material and where to get it.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 It is piece of acoustical insulation that was for large generator enclosure, it was 1-1/2" thick and 19" square. I believe It is open cell foam with a black finish that seals the cells on the one side and the other side has adhesive applied with a plastic tear off sheet. Just the edges would have exposed open cell, I would not expect the R-value to be very high but it did the job. If you look at the chart I put up It stayed in comfort range that Battle Born recommended and it sealed the opening with the water proof adhesive backing facing my door vents, plus easy to install and remove.

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Nice work - as usual -. You do high level work. 

I must admit - I try not to be anywhere its gonna be below freezing for much more than a few hours. Over night's perhaps - it better warm during the day.  We did get snowed upon at elevation last summer (10k' FT).  Summer in the CO mountains....

I love the outdoors, camping, RV'ing, paddling WW , etc. - but not at freezing temps - not anymore.

I even hesitate to paddle much below 40.... and that is a change - seems each new year finds me a somewhat more - adultish..

However - given the topics lately - I will add a little cold weather materials to my travel tools and equipment stash - esp. if it is during the transition periods Spring/Fall. 

Thanks all for the ideas.

RB

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Cindy,  Russell and  "Harley dog" . Home is our little farm near Winchester TN

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We have some automotive sound deadening panels we purchased to quiet the hardtop of an older jeep we have.  Would this be suitable for insulating the exterior hatches?

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

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I want to thank Minnesota Oliver for the very detailed report. 

Have to say, I  loved the photo of the outdoor shower spraying. 👍

As much as I  love my native Minnesota,  I'm always glad (in the winter) that I  live in Florida. Though,  I miss my family. 

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Ray & Susan -

YES!  (EDIT) - I just re-read your post and you are talking about "EXTERIOR" while my reply below is mainly for interior.  AS long as those panels you have are at least somewhat waterproof then I'd still say you are good to go.

I did exactly this a few years ago.  

At the time, my goal was to get the water pump to be a bit quieter.  After I put in an accumulator tank and added some Stainless Steel braided lines along with pipe insulation, I was still not happy with the sound levels.  So, I happened upon some sound deadening I had in the workshop and placed it on the underside on each of the access hatches.  This did make a difference with both the sound deadening and (slightly to my surprise because I was not thinking about this at the time) with insulation. 

I initially used foil duct tape to hold the material in place but later had to go back with a glue gun to better secure this stuff.

Bill

p.s.  if you do this mod - don't forget to allow for the red ribbon material so that you have something to lift the panels by.

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On 2/11/2021 at 8:04 PM, Minnesota Oli said:

 The seed was planted for this furnace mod when we grabbed a canceled reservation three weeks out at a Minnesota State Park. This reservation was mid October and when the date arrived the weather forecast had changed for the worse. We stayed for only two of the three days and we received our first snow of the season, 6 inches of wet snow. We had a non electric site and my batteries were having trouble making it through the night and I was concerned about the water freezing in the Oliver. I have already addressed switching to lithium batteries and posted about it on Oliver Forum. Now I want to share with you what I have done to relieve my worries about water freeze ups in the Oliver, provided that I have a functioning furnace.

 I first tried to identify the weak spots and came up with the following.

  • Boondocking Inlet
  • Outside Wash Station
  • Fresh Tank Fill Inlet
  • City Water Inlet
  • Black Tank Flush Port
  • Toilet Water Supply Line
  • Hot & Cold Lines Crossing Back Of Oliver

 The Oliver has all of it's heat ducts run on the curbside which protect the kitchen and the bathroom faucets from freezing. My plan is to run a 2" ducting along the back to the street side and terminating in to the trough that the water lines run in for the city water inlet, fresh tank fill inlet and outside faucet. This trough also has the check valves for those two inlets and has the floor of the exterior storage compartment covering over the top of it. To get at the trough you will have to remove the back wall of the storage compartment and flip the mat back that covers the floor. This exposes the water lines that come across the back of the trailer and drop into that trough. There is a wall that separates the furnace compartment from storage and extends past the wall you just removed. It has a opening for the water lines and it is large enough to run the 2" duct through it and on top of the water lines across the back and into the trough. Now you can flip the mat back down and they are long enough to cover the water lines and the newly installed 2" duct, then the wall is put back in place.

 

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On the connection to the furnace I removed the back of the heat exchanger. There is one hard to get at screw on the bottom but the rest are easily accessible. I made two holes, a 2" and a 4" in that back plate. I could not find a 2" starter collar locally so I bought two 4" and removed the rivets on one of them and formed a two inch collar, cut to length and re-rivet.    

 

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 I then installed the 2" and 4" starter collars to the heat exchanger back panel and then the panel to the furnace. I then hooked up the 2" duct to the furnace. Looking in to the access hole under the street side bed you are able to see where the water lines come up and out of the trough and to the valve of the out side wash station. When the furnace fan is running it will blow out a lit Bic Lighter held in that area. So we're protecting water lines, the check valves and dumping warm air underneath the outside wash station valve.

 

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 Now back at the furnace I attach a 4" heavy duty aluminum foil duct to the newly installed starter collar. It is routed forward a short distance until it can be routed across the basement to the street side and then fed between the hot and cold water lines that go to the outside wash station valve. At this point I need to use a 4" coupler that is 6" long to attach the next 8' piece of 4" duct. I use the 6" long coupler so I can add holes if I need to flood a area with heat, this particular coupler did not need to. I then routed the duct from the wash station valve along the outer wall and over the wheel well, make the corner by the battery compartment and then once getting past the wheel well go down and under battery compartment. Up in that corner I attach a adhesive base 3/4" cable anchor so I can loop a 20" releasable tie strap through it and around the 4" duct holding it up and out of the way. A second 20" tie strap is used were the duct heads down under the battery compartment, it utilizes the loop that anchors the 4/0 cable coming out of the battery compartment.

 

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 Next I prep another 6" long 4" coupler by adding a metal mounting bracket. It is bolted to the coupler using two 10-24 machine screws that go through the bracket the coupler wall and then a backing plate that has tapped holes. This coupler I will add a1" hole that will be pointed up to flood heat at the battery compartment.

 

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 The mounting bracket will be utilizing the upper bolt of the support leg for the battery compartment.

 

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 This keeps the duct up and away from the inverter and electrical components and positions it to flood heat up against the bottom of the battery compartment. The next length of 4" duct is clamped to that coupler and routed up from under the battery compartment over to and along the wheel well. It is held by two 20" tie straps similar to the other side.

 

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 Because I want to run the heat duct under the foot space of the dinette I need to transition to 2" duct. There is access via the same trough that I utilized in the back of the trailer, but at the front there is more room and I am able to pull the 2" ducting through. From there it continues toward the front until it reaches the black tank flush inlet where it then follows that pipe back along the black tank and terminates by the water supply line for the toilet. At the transition point I add two more short pieces of 2" duct and route them down to where the main black tank drain pipe goes under the dinette foot space, they are terminated on either side of that pipe. There was not enough room to run the 2" duct but enough to force air along either side. At the transition from 4" to the three 2" ducts I simply inserted the three 2" into the end of the 4" and used aluminum foil duct tape to seal the transition. I also want to mention that I used the aluminum foil duct tape to reinforce the ends of every 4" duct by wrapping outside and inside before clamping.

 

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 That should cover the install, now lets talk about the results of the test in subzero weather. I rounded up seven digital thermometers and put them in the areas I was concerned about.

  1. Was placed just inside the empty rear storage compartment.
  2. Was placed on top of the batteries and a piece of acoustical insulation that was for large generator enclosure, it was 1-1/2" thick and 19" square. This was squeezed in the opening before the door was closed.
  3. Was placed in the rear basement curbside next to boondocking inlet.
  4. Was placed in the rear basement street side below the outside wash station valve.
  5. Was placed on the floor of the closet with the door left closed.
  6. Was placed on the lower shelf in the vanity in the bathroom with the door left closed.
  7. Was placed in front basement street side next to the black tank flush port line.

 I moved it out of the heated shed at 1:00 pm on Sunday 2-7-21. I moved it back in at 3:00 pm on Tuesday 2-9-21.

 

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 The furnace was cycling off and on at -4 ' but I noticed at -8' and colder it ran continuous. I have the Truma water heater and that was also turned on. I checked propane consumption by putting on two 20 pound tanks that I had weighed and left them in place for 12 hours. It was -12' when I put them on and -2' when I took them off. Because of the subzero temperature the propane was not gasifying very well and the regulator automatically changed from the primary to the reserve after only consuming 2.353 gallons. The total consumed out of both tanks in 12 hours was 3.294 gallons, so that would be .274 gallons in one hour.

 My Victron BMV-712 was telling me that I had depleted my 400 Ah Battle Born batteries to 47% and at rate of use I had two days and nine hours left.

 I thought I would comment on a couple of things I like about the outcome of the project. The bathroom was comfy warm and the wall next to the bed was not icy cold.

 I am not planing to take up subzero camping but it does gives me a benchmark to go off of for any situation that I might run in to. If you have any suggestions or see something that is of concern please let me know.

Paul

 

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Beautiful work Paul!  Thanks for sharing.  I did the exact same mod using different materials and have been getting similar results across the entire basement.  I just haven't had any really cold nights here in NC this winter to see how it would "scale" in super cold temps.  I plan to try and use my Oliver to ski, so I've been trying to winterize it for the "5th season" you are testing in now. 

I have also added an all electric solution as a backup to the furnace / propane mod.  First, I added a smart fan under the dinette seat near the bathroom to pull air from the vent in the back across the basement nooks and crannies, and second I have extra protection for the two backflow check valves on the city and fresh water inlets with 4' of 12V self regulating heat cable.  It takes 5 watts per foot and does a fantastic job keeping those check valves toasty on very little power (1.5 amps or so).  I thought about putting another one on the winterization/boondocking port as that is a super cold area as well, but there are no check valves there that I can see, so I didn't protect it - I hope the water just drains out before putting the cap back on.  😬  Might just be luck that I haven't had it freeze.  Maybe I should add another heat cable there?  I also have the composting toilet (no black tank use) and have drained the water in the toilet water line, so I don't need extra heat in those areas. 

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John and Anita

2020 Oliver Elite II, Hull 688

Tow Vehicle:  2006 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab.  6.6L Duramax

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1 hour ago, NCeagle said:

I also have the composting toilet (no black tank use) and have drained the water in the toilet water line, so I don't need extra heat in those areas. 

Is the water line to the toilet open by default when ordering new with the composting toilet option? What was the process to drain it and keep it drained?

What brand of heat cable did you go with?

Thanks!

Edited by Jairon

2019 Toyota Land Cruiser

2021 Oliver Elite II, Hull #748

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Someone on Oliver Forum replying to a topic made the statement that the Oliver trailer is really more of mobile tiny home then a camper, and I agree with that. Having your home ready for what ever you may run in to gives peace of mind so a person can really enjoy the time while out having adventures.

I really like your ideas of building in redundancies in to the heating systems. Like what I said in my post, my mods are totally reliant on the furnace functioning and that includes not having problems with propane supply and how it has problems with gasifying in subzero temps.

I think that when everyone shares there ideas we will be able to come close to having the security of our homes built in to our Oliver.

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38 minutes ago, Jairon said:

Is the water line to the toilet open by default when ordering new with the composting toilet option? What was the process to drain it and keep it drained?

What brand of heat cable did you go with?

Thanks!

Hi Jairon,

Yes, at least on our Oliver (picked up 11/20), the water line is connected and open (filled with pressurized water) to the inlet valve for a standard toilet.  There is also a hole under the composting toilet directly over the black tank for a standard toilet, although the black tank has no hole on top of it.  I'm glad it's this way though in case we ever decide to go with a standard toilet - or if there are ever next owners that want the standard toilet.  I have a post somewhere in the forum that shows pictures of the access hatch I put in the bathroom vanity as well as some shower upgrades.  One of the pictures shows the line going to the toilet valve and where I have installed a cutoff valve.  I blew the water out of the line to the toilet valve while I had it cut, then I put in the cutoff valve and shut it.  Again, it's still there for future use if needed.  Let me know if you can't find the post / pics - it's easy once you hack your way into the vanity.  🙂

As for the heated cable, I worked with a company in Minnesota, https://www.oemheaters.com/.  I called and talked directly with one of their engineers about the problem I was trying to solve and they recommended a solution.  I bought all the parts and built the cable, then wired it in through an open terminal on the Ollie's DC fuse box.  Pretty easy and pretty fun.  I'm going to collect some temp data tonight and create a post on it hopefully tomorrow.  Then everyone can start improving on it from there!  🙂

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John and Anita

2020 Oliver Elite II, Hull 688

Tow Vehicle:  2006 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab.  6.6L Duramax

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11 minutes ago, NCeagle said:

I bought all the parts and built the cable

I was researching cables last night and that solution sounds far better than the ideas I was seriously considering. If you have a bill of materials and you care to share it, I'd love to copy it. 😁

17 minutes ago, NCeagle said:

One of the pictures shows the line going to the toilet valve and where I have installed a cutoff valve.

I remember that post and actually bookmarked it. Keeping that line empty never crossed my mind so I'm very grateful you mentioned it. Here is the post for anyone curious:

 

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2021 Oliver Elite II, Hull #748

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, Jairon said:

I was researching cables last night and that solution sounds far better than the ideas I was seriously considering. If you have a bill of materials and you care to share it, I'd love to copy it. 😁

No problem at all.  I ordered 4 units (feet) of the cable, which is item No. K650016 and 1 termination kit, which is item No. K651001.  I used some heat shrink tubing that I had as well to do an even better job on the cable termination and wiring ends.  I also used a 3 amp fuse and 14 gauge red wire for positive and yellow wire for the negative connections.  Oh, and some corrugated, split wire loom tubing to protect the wires (same stuff OTT uses everywhere on the wiring).

Oh, and the cable turned out beautiful.  I carried it around and showed it to my wife and my son and the pets I was so proud.  I just forgot to take a picture of it before I wrapped it around the check valves and tie wrapped it in.  😀

 

Edited by NCeagle
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John and Anita

2020 Oliver Elite II, Hull 688

Tow Vehicle:  2006 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab.  6.6L Duramax

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 Here are some pictures of the various things we've been sharing ideas on in this post...

First, a boring picture of the 6" vent I put in for the "bilge fan" under the front dinette seat.  Again, I wanted a way to move conditioned cabin air throughout the basement (hot or cold) that was independent of the furnace fan - which cannot be run without heat anyhow.

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And the fan itself.  You have permission to laugh at the bungee cord installation.  It's temporary for now until I find a good way to mount it permanently.  Ugly but it is working!  😉

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Here's the remote controller for the smart fan.  I "hid" it behind the blind sort of.  It's not pretty either but it has a temperature sensor and all kinds of ways to program the fan for various situations.  Also, no drilling or screws unless absolutely necessary - and it isn't necessary for this as I used 3M two sided tape and just ran the sensor wires through the hatch.

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Now onto the other part of the "all electric" backup heat solutions...

Here's the heat cable tie wrapped to the backflow check valves.  Tough to see, but the cable is 4' long so runs 2' on each line - with the cable touching each backflow check valve.  This is similar to putting a pump or two of antifreeze into each port when winterizing (I hope).

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You can see the wires leading to the cable running in the "tray" along the black/gray drain pipe on the left (1st pic above).  In the next pic, here's the connection I made to the 12V fuse box (annotated by the arrows) and the negative bus bar (yellow lines).  I used lucky terminal number 13 on the fuse box and had to share a connection on the negative bus bar (I know, not a good practice, but OTT already had done it once so what does doing it twice hurt?).  I'll put a switch in someday (maybe) - for now it's just put the fuse in if you want the heat cable on, take the fuse out if you want it off.  Side note:  That thing wrapped in the yoga mat is the end of my HVAC line that runs on the street side. If you look closely, you can see 2 red automotive vacuum hoses coming out of the end and going under the dinette floor.  This is how I'm getting some heated air to the front street side from the furnace.

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I'll share this picture below mainly so you can all laugh at the hole I created in my ductwork below the battery box (I used a screwdriver - LOL).  Nowhere near as "sexy" as @Minnesota Oli's beautiful drilled hole!  Paul, I may have to put in an order for that part so I can upgrade my solution someday!  🙂  The wire for the heat cable is running right underneath the hvac line in the picture.

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Last but not least, I put some insulation around the cable, pipes and valves before replacing the floor to help keep the heat where it is supposed to be.  You can also see my temp/humidity sensorpush tucked beside the line as well as the temperature probe from the smart fan tucked into and up against the check valve itself (for now I want a really accurate reading of the pipe temp).  You are all welcome to laugh again - see the hole in the ductwork right above?  Yep, my screwdriver got busy there too in order to direct some heat at the valves and plumbing in that area. 🙂 

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Heat cable test - not super cold out, but it is working for sure.  Turned on the heat cable at 4:30 AM this morning.

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Edited by NCeagle
wording, add data graph
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John and Anita

2020 Oliver Elite II, Hull 688

Tow Vehicle:  2006 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab.  6.6L Duramax

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Hi John

A ton of food for thought I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to share with the rest of us. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the nicely drilled hole for flooding hot air it does not compare to your ability to run test, record and chart the results.

Thanks again

Paul     

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