Champion 2000W gas generator to try and get enough charge in lithionics to raise jacks

[Donna and Jim Y.]

Hi All:

We have 2022 LEII that we parked a few months ago in storage and it has just gone through a huge cold snap.  I'm needing to move it from storage and it is totally dead.  I have the generator and ground plug but I'm afraid to just plug the cord into it.  But everything is dead so I don't think I could change any settings anyway.  It is 40f here today after below zero.  Will I hurt anything?  Should I turn batteries on if they will turn on?

 

Thanks for any info!!

[dewdev]

You can charger the batteries with your generator, as follows.

1. Turn the Ollie batteries on if you have a on-off switch.

2. Make sure the electrical breaker to the battery charger is ON (likely located under the dinette). 

3. Plug in the  ground plug into one outlet on the generator. Plug the 120V power cord you got with the Ollie into the generator. (if the generator does not have a 30 amp receptacle, you may need a connector to change the Ollie connection to a 3 prong connector to be able to plug into the generator.)

Conversely,

1. If you have access to a 30 amp power source you can plug the Ollie into that power source and the on-bard charger will charge the batteries (make sure the electrical breaker to the battery charger is on.)

2. If you have solar collectors and the trailer is now in the sun, the solar collectors have wiring directly to the batteries and the collectors should charge the batteries, but at a slower rate.

I believe the procedure should work for AGM's not sure if you have Lithium batteries, as you did not indicate what batteries you have.

[Donna and Jim Y.]

Thank you so much!  Off now to give it a try.

[John E Davies]

I would be very careful with completely dead lithiums, most likely they shut down safely, but maybe not. Refer to their manual and take your time.

Your generator probably has a set of DC charging cables with big alligator clips, you can hook them to the batteries directly and they will basically bypass everything inside the trailer. Once they take enough charge, they should wake up by themselves to allow you to charge them from the onboard unit. Alternatively remove and transport them elsewhere to be charged individually.

The BIG question is, why are they dead? 

You can raise the jacks manually, you should have received a Zee shaped tool….

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Steph and Dud B]

DO NOT TRY TO CHARGE THE BATTERIES IF THEY ARE BELOW FREEZING.

You will need to change the charge settings in the Xantrex. Specifically, Setting #28.

Leave the batteries off. Make sure the Xantrex inverter is off (button out). Start the genny. Connect your generator to the ground plug. Connect the trailer. Change the Xantrex setting #28 to 15 amps (see Xantrex manual). Turn your batteries on. It will take a while.

if you leave the Xantrex setting at the factory default it will try to pull 25 amps from your small generator and trip the circuit breaker.

It would be better if you could recharge via a 30 amp shoreline connection.

[Steph and Dud B]

Which Lithionics do you have? You need to read the Lithionics storage procedures for your type of batteries. The larger (Platinum Package) batteries have internal heaters and will discharge in a few days to a week in cold weather. The smaller Lithionics do not have internal heaters and should not be stored in freezing temperatures. Improper storage and complete discharging will damage your batteries. The manuals are in Oliver University.

[Geronimo John]

I would first check the charge status before doing anything else.

 

"It is dead" may mean the trailer is dark and the master switch is in the off position.  Good to know what the posts of the battery says.

 

[Steph and Dud B]

There is no battery cutoff switch in a 2022 with the lithium package. Only the built-in switches on the batteries.

[Rivernerd]

17 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

I would first check the charge status before doing anything else.

I concur.  I would check battery voltage with a multimeter first (red lead to positive terminal, black lead to negative).  If they are below 12V, the safest method is to charge the batteries with an external charger back up to 12.6V before using them.  But, but don't try to recharge your Lithionics batteries if the ambient temperature is below freezing.  If you can't wait for above-freezing temps, remove the batteries from the trailer, take them to a warmer place, give them an hour or two to acclimate (to be safe), then attach the external charger and recharge to 12.6V.   You will need a charger that has a "lithium" setting, or even a dedicated LiFePO4 charger.  If you don't have one, it is time to buy one. 

Such a charger could be plugged into your generator.  Because LiFePO4 batteries require specific charging algorithms, I would not recommend attaching your generator directly to the Lithionics batteries, like you could with lead-acid or AGM batteries.  It is much safer to use a lithium-capable charger, plugged into your generator as the 120V power source.

It would also be helpful to know which Lithionics package you have.  The Platinum Package includes batteries with internal heaters.  As noted above, without an external power source, those batteries can self discharge in cold temps trying to keep the batteries above freezing.

If you have the Pro Package, Oliver should have installed a 12V external battery heating pad, with a red "on-off' switch mounted on top of the batteries. If that switch was left in the "On" position, and you supplied no external power but left the trailer in a cold environment, then those batteries, too, would have shut down when they ran out of power.

Next time you store your Oliver with Lithionics batteries in cold temps, either:  (1) supply 120V power so the battery warmers can keep them above freezing without draining the batteries or (2) remove the batteries from the battery box and store them in a temperature controlled place.  Any other choice could significantly shorten the life of those expensive Lithionics batteries.

Good luck!

[Geronimo John]

2 hours ago, Steph and Dud B said:

There is no battery cutoff switch in a 2022 with the lithium package. Only the built-in switches on the batteries.

That is something that anybody that has fought a fire being fed by Lithium Batteries would curse for days about.  

If it is not a fire code issue, then it should be.

 

[Steph and Dud B]

8 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

That is something that anybody that has fought a fire being fed by Lithium Batteries would curse for days about.  

How would a battery load cutoff help in a battery fire? In a lithium battery fire, the battery's internal cells are compromised and burning, usually from a physical shock or damage.

[dewdev]

Donna and Jim Y have not indicated if they have AGM or Lithium batteries, which is important as indicated above

Their trailer is a 2021 Oliver Elite II.

If they are still having charging issues, hopefully they could provide more detail, to all here, of what kind of batteries they have and what Lithium package they have, if they have Lithium's. (I sent a PM to them with that question.)

[John E Davies]

54 minutes ago, dewdev said:

Donna and Jim Y have not indicated if they have AGM or Lithium batteries, which is important as indicated above

Please re-read the thread title…..

”charge in lithionics”

Don’t worry, we all have times like this. 😀

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Hokieman]

1 hour ago, dewdev said:

Donna and Jim Y have not indicated if they have AGM or Lithium batteries

I clicked on their profile and looked at past posts.   Looks like they have a 2022 E2 with Lithium Pro package, 390AH Lithionics, 3000W Xantrex inverter.  

[Steve Morris]

According the the FB group, it looks like this has been solved.

 

 

[Geronimo John]

5 hours ago, Steph and Dud B said:

How would a battery load cutoff help in a battery fire? In a lithium battery fire, the battery's internal cells are compromised and burning, usually from a physical shock or damage.

The key word in my post was FED.  Fires being fed power from lithiums can transfer a lot of power to the electrical short(s) as compared to the instantaneous power that LA and AGM batteries can generate.

I witnessed this at a solar farm where the battery storage building had a short downstream of the Litho's and the fire fighters were in a pickle as the breakers fused and they could not kill the power to the short.  What started as a rather large short circuit fed by the litho's ended up turning into a major fire that then involved the batteries themselves.  They were there for several days.  

I absolutely recommend having a Master Shut Off switch that is rated for more amps than the fuse is.  In our case many of use 300 amp fuses to power 3000 watt inverters.  For this the Blue Seas 350 amp rated switch is a great choice.    Best peace of mind I have spent on my Ollie.  

 

 

[Rivernerd]

12 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

I absolutely recommend having a Master Shut Off switch that is rated for more amps than the fuse is.  In our case many of use 300 amp fuses to power 3000 watt inverters.  For this the Blue Seas 350 amp rated switch is a great choice.    Best peace of mind I have spent on my Ollie.  

Where did you install your Blue Sea 350A switch in your Oliver?

[Donna and Jim Y.]

Hello Everyone:  Goodness I do have a lot to learn about the elictrical system on this trailer.  Sorry I didn't put complete info down about the trailer.  We do have a Platinum Pro package with 3 Lithium Batteries hat equal 390 amp hours.  They do (I think) have internal heaters with blue lights that glow blue when on.  There is also an off/on switch that is connected to a red wire that runs above the batteries that I honstly don't know exactly what it goes to..  Yesterday it did not get above freezing.  Today we are above freezing.  The Lithionics app says the batteries are 81%, 81% and 83% with 12.21V, 12.2V, 12.22V and the battery temps show 33F 34F 34f.  The batteries did turn on for me just now and I have reset the Xantrix to 15 amps from 25 amps.  Xantric shows 12.2V on wall and app shows battery 25%.  So I am now going to go hook up my generator.  

I'm also learning how to use this site - so thanks for the messages and I am going to read more about charging lithiums fro John also. 

More soon.

 

Jim

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, Donna and Jim Y. said:

They do (I think) have internal heaters with blue lights that glow blue when on.  There is also an off/on switch that is connected to a red wire that runs above the batteries that I honstly don't know exactly what it goes to.

Your Lithium Pro Package is the same one we have in our 2022 Elite II.  The "blue lights" are not internal heaters; they are the "On/Off" switches for the batteries.  The rings on the switches glow blue when they are on.

The "on/off switch that is connected to a red wire that runs above the batteries" controls the external battery heaters that Oliver installs with the Lithium Pro package.

The fact that your Lithionics batteries "did turn on for me just now" suggests that they had turned themselves off when they got to the Low Voltage Cutoff point, but that they had sufficient reserve power available so you could turn them back on.

Given that fact, I am puzzled by your report that the Lithionics app lists all three batteries in the 81-83% and 12.1-12.2V range.  They should not have turned themselves off until the State of Charge got much lower than 80%.  More believable is the 25% state-of-charge report from the Xantrex FXC Control app. 

Regardless of the wildly different state-of-charge numbers between the two apps, the safest course is to recharge before applying any power draws (like the jacks).  With the batteries above 32 F, you should be able to recharge them with your generator, as you report is your plan.  Monitor the charge level with the Lithionics app.  Once the state of charge gets above 90%, it should be safe to operate the jacks, and move the trailer as needed.  Once you have access to shore power, I recommend recharging the batteries to 100% state of charge for a couple of days, so the individual cells within the batteries can rebalance.

Then, please report your results.  Your experience is very helpful to those of us who have that same Lithium Pro Package.

[Geronimo John]

2 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

Where did you install your Blue Sea 350A switch in your Oliver?

As a former USAF Engineer and Fire Marshall, I had quite an internal discussion with myself on that very question. 

Below is the logic I ended up with to select the location I used.  I for sure would like other owners to comment.

• Wherever you put it, it is better to have it than not to have it.
• My greatest fear is that it will happen at night when I am not present with family occupants.

With these thoughts in mind, my fire plan that all using the trailer are advised of is:

• If you smell, see, or hear smoke look get others out of the trailer and have them call for help (911 or yell fire if others are about)
• If you can see the cause, fix it or extinguish it with the closet mounted extinguisher.
• If for what ever reason you can't, just get out of the trailer immediately.
• Most importantly, I do not want family members having to hunt for a master switch inside during an emergency.  Get out of the trailer.

So, my first decision of inside or outside was made.  Outside access.  Some considerations:  

• You don't want to be running a lot of extra wire length of 4/0 300 amp cable for a lot o reasons.
• It needs to be protected from weather and be ahead of the Victron Shunt and all other battery Positive feeds.

Therefore the location was obvious:  the battery box just inside of the access door.  For connection, I used a piece of copper buss bar for the connection from the terminal to the switch as other owners have posted.

Note:  For anyone sleeping in our Ollie, I ensure that the compartment is unlocked and they know how to access the closet fire extinguisher as well.  And, just to head off a comment, yes, I am taking a risk that somebody may steal our Litho's while the box is unlocked.  A risk I accept.

Owners:  I really would appreciate hearing the negatives of this decision.  Only way to learn is to listen.  So fire away.

[Donna and Jim Y.]

Grateful update:)!  Well I finally got the generator started and everything went you all said it would!  After charging with the generator for 30 minutes the zamp inside read 13.6 Volts and batteries read 92% .  We then were able touse the jacks and get the trailer on the hitch and the zamp now reads 13.3V.  We will take the trailer home and plug it into our 120V.  I believe I am correct that we can do that now that we have adjusted the Xantric to 15amps from 25amps? 

 

For a time the blue battery's lights flashed blue.  I think maybe the batteries were equalizing.  Now they are all three solid blue.   

Then we are going to try "dry" winter camping for a few days leaving the trailer winterized and using the composting toilet.

 

We are looking forward to meeting you all someday and trying to repay the assistance we received here again.  Need some experience first!!  Thanks again.

Jim and Donna

2022 LEII #998  Ford Expedition Max 2018 4x4  

[Geronimo John]

25 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

Once you have access to shore power, I recommend recharging the batteries to 100% state of charge for a couple of days, so the individual cells within the batteries can rebalance.

Ralph: 

Very excellent response.  

My system is the less complex Battleborn/Victron 712, Orion DC/DC DYI system.  Periodically (every few weeks) when I stumble into some shore power, I equalize the batteries.  Once they achieve 14.2 volts plus 90 minutes (per Battleborn for my PD 4060 converter) I need to let the system set several hours and it will settle to the "Full Rested Charge" of 13.7 or 13.8 volts.  If the 712 SOC is reading 100% I'm done.  If not, I reset the meter and it then shows 100% SOC at the full charge voltage.  

QUETION For Lithionics Owners:  On the very nice Lithionics system, is a reset of the SOC required after equalization charge as well?  If so, that could explain Donna and Jim's SOC discrepancy.

QUESTION For Battleborn Owners:  Is my understanding and equalization process correct?   

Thanks GJ 

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, Geronimo John said:

QUETION For Lithionics Owners:  On the very nice Lithionics system, is a reset of the SOC required after equalization charge as well?  If so, that could explain Donna and Jim's SOC discrepancy.

No.  "Equalization charge" occurs when the Lithionics batteries reach 99% as reported by the Lithionics app.  It can take a couple of days connected to shore power.  Thereafter, Lithionics does not recommend a "reset of the SOC." 

But, Lithionics does recommend that when stored, a discharge down to Low Voltage Cutoff (which Donna and Jim Y have just done by leaving the batteries without shore power connection for a couple of months), then recharge back to 100% State of Charge (which they are now in the process of doing), at least once every 6 months.

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, Donna and Jim Y. said:

We will take the trailer home and plug it into our 120V.  I believe I am correct that we can do that now that we have adjusted the Xantric to 15amps from 25amps? 

Yes.  Once the Xantrex 3000 has been reset to 15A, it its my understanding it can properly handle the 120V, 15A input from your home electrical system.  Presuming, of course, that you have the proper 30A locking female to 15A male adapter, like this:

[Steph and Dud B]

1 hour ago, Donna and Jim Y. said:

I believe I am correct that we can do that now that we have adjusted the Xantric to 15amps from 25amps? 

Yes, as long as there are no other large draws on that circuit in your house. Then, when you have 30 amp shore power at a campground, you can set it back to 25.