Charging Ollie With Multiple PowerSources, split from flex panels thread

[John and Debbie]

1 hour ago, SeaDawg said:

It's electron magic, I guess.

We don't have the same system (we're blue sky solar, 400 watts fixed, 200 watts portable,  pd charger /inverter, and agm natteries) but all these systems are pretty much set up with limits and rules so that everybody follows kindergarten protocols... play well together. 

What we do is use genset in the morning, when most empty, and get the biggest bang for our fossil fuel buck, if boondocking. Let the solar take up the slower high end of the charge curve.

I actually have asked this question a number of times, to various manufacturers.  All the charging devices have limits programmed in, so, you can't "overcharge". (Though, as we all know, lifepo4 like to be charged only infrequently to 100 per cent. They're not happy with constant  float charge to full capacity, opposite of lead acid. )

So, we've run with that advice. Over seven years on current agms, approaching seven on flas on the boat, and 4 or 5 on house lithium powerwalls. I may not understand it all , but we follow their charts and settings, and so far, so good. 

 

When I asked if I could just leave my lithium batteries plugged in 24/7 I was told it was ok.  That means they are always at 100%.  OTT gave me that advice.

John

[MAX Burner]

10 hours ago, Ollie-Haus said:

my understanding is that the auxiliary solar port Oliver installs on our campers is directly wired to the batteries.

True statement, @Ollie-Haus: However, the only slight exception would be those that run a Victron Smart Shunt 712, in those cases, the negative lead from the aux solar connection goes to the SS (then to the battery bank) so the shunt can keep track of the current generated by the suitcase solar modules.

[Ollie-Haus]

Correct. I knew I could see the aggregate charge from both solar sources on the Victron display, just didn’t know how to explain it so simply as you did. I like that because the Zamp control on the portable panel shows it’s output and the Victron shows the total going to the batteries. 

[topgun2]

13 hours ago, John Welte said:

Bill,

Do they cover some of these questions at the rally?  I don't have a good grasp of the electrical systems and how to integrate a portable solar panel if I had one available.

John

John -

While there are some good suggestions in the replies above, part of your question (I assume) is asking about an "official" presentation at the Rally giving information of the subject being discussed here in this thread on the Forum.  

If that is the case, I'd suggest that you send Rodney Lomax an email requesting a session at the Rally in which this topic is discussed.

I know that (at least in the past) Oliver has been looking for suggestions exactly like this.

Bill

p.s. Rodney's email address is:   

rlomax@olivertraveltrail

[John and Debbie]

34 minutes ago, topgun2 said:

John -

While there are some good suggestions in the replies above, part of your question (I assume) is asking about an "official" presentation at the Rally giving information of the subject being discussed here in this thread on the Forum.  

If that is the case, I'd suggest that you send Rodney Lomax an email requesting a session at the Rally in which this topic is discussed.

I know that (at least in the past) Oliver has been looking for suggestions exactly like this.

Bill

p.s. Rodney's email address is:   

rlomax@olivertraveltrail

Thanks Bill, we haven't decided yet whether we're going to the rally.  I would like to go, but we will have just returned from two months in Australia just before the rally starts.  Our son lives in Tasmania.  Thanks for your comment.

John

[topgun2]

2 hours ago, John Welte said:

but we will have just returned from two months in Australia just before the rally

Tough life - but - someone simply has to do it!

Either way, I'd still suggest that email.  If it is too late to get it on the schedule for 2024, it will be on the list for 2025.  If it happens in 2024 and you can't be there, I'll be sure to take notes for you and/or (sometimes) Oliver makes recordings of some of the presentations that you could see at a later time.

Bill

[MAX Burner]

6 hours ago, John Welte said:

Our son lives in Tasmania. 

Great fly-fishing just out side of Hobart...  We love Tasmania!

[John and Debbie]

10 minutes ago, MAX Burner said:

Great fly-fishing just out side of Hobart...  We love Tasmania!

It will be our first time there.  They live north of Hobart in Rosetta, close to the river.  I am looking forward to having summer in February and March.

[Geronimo John]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:18 PM, SeaDawg said:

What we do is use genset in the morning, when most empty, and get the biggest bang for our fossil fuel buck, if boondocking. Let the solar take up the slower high end of the charge curve.

I do just the opposite.  I want to minimize our fossil fuel use and maximize the sun.  My rationale is that I don't know how long to run the generaor in the morning when the charge is low.  So, my guess is never the most percise answer. 

But I do know if I run my solar suitcase 200W system all day, taking a moment periodically to keep them pointed ahead of the sun, I have gotten all the free energy I can with my small solar system. 

Then at dusk I run the generator to bring up my SOC to my target level.  I generally shut off the generator at about 65% SOC as I am leaving some room for the next day's sun to have a place to charge to. 

But if my chores or the campfire get the better of me, and I fail to do so, our Honda EU2200 will Eco Cycle back down when the PD 4060 backs off.  I can hear it easily do so.  Time to go turn her off for sure because I'm at 100% SOC.  I try to avoid this.

GJ

[Geronimo John]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:27 PM, John Welte said:

When I asked if I could just leave my lithium batteries plugged in 24/7 I was told it was ok.  That means they are always at 100%.  OTT gave me that advice.

John W:

For your system and those exactly like your system, that would be convenient.  However if your trailer is stored in hard freezing conditions and often not under direct observaion on a regular basis my pea brain has tossed a red flag warning.  

However many, if not most of our systems are not like yours.  So to that group I suggest two cautions:  

A.  Some MFG's say don't do so.  So check your  documentation or call/email your MFG to verify.

B.  No manufacturer that I am aware of allows their Litho's to be frozen and charged/discharged.  So if your winter location can deep freeze beware.

Likely OTT was aware that your factory Litho package has battery heaters.  So long as they operate perfectly then it may be OK.  And that may be OK is totally dependent on your battery heaters working every time they are needed.  Personally I would not assume that each one of them will work every time for the life of the Litho's.   Murphy's Law rules.

However, I would not recommend that other owners of Litho's without battery heaters assume that their comment applies to them for deep freeze storage.  See Items A and B above.

GJ  

[SeaDawg]

15 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

On 12/3/2023 at 10:18 PM, SeaDawg said:

What we do is use genset in the morning, when most empty, and get the biggest bang for our fossil fuel buck, if boondocking. Let the solar take up the slower high end of the charge curve.

Expand  

I do just the opposite.  I want to minimize our fossil fuel use and maximize the sun.  My rationale is that I don't know how long to run the generaor in the morning when the charge is low.  So, my guess is never the most percise answer. 

I do the opposite practice, but for the same reason.   I rarely have to use the genset. But, because I monitor our usage, frequently,  I know when I need to use the genset, and when fixed solar and portable can do the job, and keep up with the dc fridge. 

If we're parked in partial shade, and we've had three or four days of gloomy or rainy weather, I know I'm going to have to deploy my Honda 1000. By trial and experience,  running it first thing in the morning,  so slower solar can deal with the ramp down, I get my best use.

Everyone's style is different,  and it's really good when we document,  as you and I have, what works best for our style, and situations. 

[MAX Burner]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:37 PM, Geronimo John said:

But I do know if I run my solar suitcase 200W system all day, taking a moment periodically to keep them pointed ahead of the sun, I have gotten all the free energy I can with my small solar system. 

Same here.  So far, during this year's outings we've never had to fire up the EU2000 because the 200w suitcase (and 340w rooftop array) gets the BBs well into the 90% SOC by keeping the suitcase aimed slightly ahead of the sun.

We're planning a late DEC trip to Dallas in a week or so, with low sun angles and possible cloudy WX - the EU2000 may "see the light of day" finally...  We'll keep y'all posted.

Cheers!

Edited December 14, 2023 by MAX Burner
Added details.

[jd1923]

Wow, lots of good comments here. Thank you @Ronbrink for starting this.
Many thoughts to follow...

Yep, the rooftop batwing panels detract from appearance, but I would not be without them. It was a cloudy day in AZ yesterday. I was in and out of the Oliver all day, ran the furnace, was testing a water pump install, ALL interior lights on, inverter on, my TV monitor streaming news in the background, and finished the day with a 98% charge. Love this solar setup and all the standard LED lights that draw minimal power. First time I've heard of an RV with a considerable LiFePO4 battery bank not fed by solar! But as @SeaDawg reminded us, we all have different needs.

Installing DC-to-DC chargers, make sure your vehicle has a HD alternator! Diesel trucks usually do as the Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins always had one coupled with a dual starter-battery system (setup this way for the electrical demand of adding a snowplow and other heavy draw accessories). Look to see if you have or can purchase a higher output alternator (buy OEM or the best name brand possible). You do NOT want to starve your TV ignition system and ECM of required voltage. I do understand the claim of the DC-to-DC products is that it regulates the draw, but if a HD alternator has more available power, it will charge your house batteries more quickly. Many half-ton trucks will come new with a standard alternator, with a higher amperage model available. An alternator install is normally a half-hour task.

In our travels, I like to plan only 2-3 hours driving between stops, so the DC-to-DC charger has less value in our use-case (so many feet of dual 4 AWG COPPER cable makes this a costly upgrade in today's market).

Those of you with OTT installed solar wanting additional panels, do NOT count on a cheap panel to have a smart solar charger. Does OTT actually install the exterior solar port wired DIRECTLY to the batteries? No, no, no, this is crazy as it should be wired to the internal solar controller. You can have multiple electrical sources inputted to a solar charger, but you do not want multiple solar charge controllers working in parallel! They could overcharge and how can you monitor current draw and battery life (%)?

Many controllers are rated for 30A, as this one from Victron. The Victron design is made to wire multiple units together for 30A-60A-90A... as many as you need (with some design maximum). We are running the OTT installed 25A Blue Sky controller. If I was to install additional panels, adding an exterior bodyside input terminal (like OTT installs), I would replace the Blue Sky with this Victron controller for the solar on the roof and add a second Victron controller for the moveable panels, which would then allow up to 60A total of solar power. Amazon.com: Victron Energy BlueSolar MPPT 100V 30 amp 12/24-Volt Solar Charge Controller : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Those of you w/o OTT installed solar, install one of these controllers (or another brand) under the streetside bed. Install a bodyside quick-connect terminal wired to the controller and cabling from the controller to your batteries. Then you can buy ANY solar panel w/o (or bypass) a built-in controller.

I've had large rigs and given solar attached we rarely have used a generator, so we're going w/o one (we keep our fire ring in the front bin!). Keep in mind, we live SW and do not summer camp requiring A/C. We have the OTT solar panels, I was told 380 watts, but not sure. We have newer (4) 6v 225AH lead-acid batteries, so this adds up to 450AH at 12VDC (225 AH at 50% discharge). 

The ample combination of batteries and solar (with accurate monitoring) is key to modern RV life.

Edited December 23, 2023 by jd1923
loaded pic

[Ronbrink]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:09 AM, Geronimo John said:

Sorry in advance for hijackings my own thread!   🙂

GJ

Actually, GJ deserves all credit due for starting this!

[Ronbrink]

17 hours ago, jd1923 said:

First time I've heard of an RV with a considerable LiFePO4 battery bank not fed by solar! But as @SeaDawg reminded us, we all have different needs.

In my situation, it’s simply a matter of ‘OllieEvolution’! Many initial cost saving measures had to be taken to be able to reasonably acquire our factory ordered ‘579’, thus sacrificing many of the add-on options offered at the time, to include battery and solar upgrades. So early in our acquisition, the ‘standard issue’ 12V Bright Way battery bank made part for four gently used 6V Trojan T-105s gifted by our Son who was upgrading his motorhome to LFPs at the time. Although these batteries served us well for a couple years, the thought of lighter weight/higher Ah usage LFPs was foremost in hopes of operating the A/C on battery, with limitations, and lean toward alternative charge/monitoring capabilities; 460Ah LFP battery bank, Smart Shunt, 20A transfer switch, 40A DC-DC, TV 200W solar panel array, pending solar port installs fore and aft, eventual portable solar panels….evolutionary indeed! 

[jd1923]

4 hours ago, Ronbrink said:

Actually, GJ deserves all credit due for starting this!

I see now how this thread was split off from another post @Geronimo John started about flexible panels.

Like your 'OllieEvolution" story! We totally get it and hence we purchased used to be affordable. Our own Oliver Evolution has been long in only 6 months...

We have already added $5K in extras, none of it solar related, but can afford this given our initial cost (new TV A/V system, rebuilt axles, new beds and bedding, improved water pump and electric valves, etc.).

Bought a 20-year-old TV too and when I'm done, we will have another $10K into it (already new suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, water pump and timing belt, hoses, all fluids, fuel pressure/temp gauges, tool boxes and water tank, performance chip and next year an exhaust brake). When I get all done, we will have spent 30% the cost of a new diesel 3/4-ton truck. Start small and yes, Evolution!

Our solar/battery/inverter setup is good enough for quite a while. LFPs for us will come 4-5 years down the road since our 450 AH of lead acid is only 2 years old. I would like to add the Victron SmartShunt ($130), not thinking we need anything else at this time, but I enjoy reading about everybody's upgrades.

I'm thinking I can add the SmartShunt directly at the battery ground like @CnC did for his 712 install, and just leave the Blue Sky shunt as-is (see pic above). What a simple install, since I'm not adding the 712 display, everything is wired within the battery bay with Bluetooth to read battery information.

Although, the SmartShunt has a gray lead that can read the TV battery voltage, be attached to a battery temp gauge, and other uses. I could wire this to the black lead, at the +12VDC bus (also shown in pic above), which connects thru the trailer electrical connecter to the TV battery. This should show about 12.6V when sitting and 14V+ with engine running when operating correctly. Just purchased this: Amazon.com: Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) : Automotive   

[Ronbrink]

44 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

I'm not adding the 712 display, everything is wired within the battery bay with Bluetooth to read battery information.

I didn’t bother with the 712 monitor either, the SmartShunt with BT and the VictronConnect app will suffice; battery bay install, as well, and a Blue Sea ANL block with a 250A fuse on the positive lead.

Evolve onward!

[Geronimo John]

23 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I do understand the claim of the DC-to-DC products is that it regulates the draw, but if a HD alternator has more available power, it will charge your house batteries more quickly. Many half-ton trucks will come new with a standard alternator, with a higher amperage model available.

Not necessarily due to the many variabilities involved.  For the vast majority of TV's being used for OE2's, the charge current is not limited by the factory alternator size when charging up to 30 amp units like the Victron- Orion 12-12/30 amp unit size.  Rather, I believe that the main limiting factor is the cable size driven voltage drop.  For our size of rigs, the absolute minimum I would suggest using is 4 AWG.  I also prefer running two parallel cables vs. using chassis grounding.  

 

23 hours ago, jd1923 said:

In our travels, I like to plan only 2-3 hours driving between stops, so the DC-to-DC charger has less value in our use-case (so many feet of dual 4 AWG COPPER cable makes this a costly upgrade in today's market).

 

 

23 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Does OTT actually install the exterior solar port wired DIRECTLY to the batteries? No, no, no, this is crazy as it should be wired to the internal solar controller.

For those using Litho's and/or having a Smart Shunt on the negative side, the only thing connected to the battery bank is the shunt.  I believe OTT knows this and would be "Shocked" if they had not wired their Litho systems accordingly.  Beyond this imperative we could have a discussion about wiring various other charging systems.... actually the topic of a thread or two.  😉

 

23 hours ago, jd1923 said:

No, no, no, this is crazy as it should be wired to the internal solar controller. You can have multiple electrical sources inputted to a solar charger, but you do not want multiple solar charge controllers working in parallel! They could overcharge and how can you monitor current draw and battery life (%)?

I'll leave the first part of this response to others to debate.  However, the bolded part tosses a red flag in my pea brain.  

At a basic level, the PRIMARY purpose of the shunt is to MEASURE charge current and battery draw for the purpose of calculating the battery bank SOC.  Whereas the solar controllers CONTROL the charge rate and doing so properly does impact battery life.  Not the shunt.  Granted using additional equipment may aggregate data for display and other purposes.  But the basic equipment purposes remain the same.  

 

 

[Ronbrink]

1 hour ago, Geronimo John said:

For our size of rigs, the absolute minimum I would suggest using is 4 AWG.  I also prefer running two parallel cables vs. using chassis grounding.  

I agree, used two 4 AWG cables from under hood to the rear bumper-mounted Anderson plug with my initial 20A DC-DC install; that cable was found to be of sufficient size when upgrading to a 40A DC-DC. That said, I did have to change a previously installed surface-mounted circuit breaker from 45 to 60 amps to handle the additional load. I should mention that a dedicated, continuous-duty, SPST Series solenoid was also initially installed, as well, to prevent the TV battery from draining when the alternator isn’t running. 

[jd1923]

My point on TV alternators was not re limiting factor. The DC-to-DC chargers drawing 20-30-40A and with 4GA cables can pull a lot of Amps. Is your alternator designed for that? Some have extra capacity, what you may call a HD alternator and some do not. if you're investing the expense of a DC-to-DC system, make sure your alternator is up for the task.

Back in the day, I had an alternator give out in an old car while on the Interstate. Didn't know it went out, until I heard a backfire and the engine quit (battery charge got too low to run ignition system). We were lucky and coasted off an exit ramp, pulled into a hotel parking lot, where we spent the night, went to the AP store in the morning! Would hate to be pulling a trailer in this situation. Every alternator is rated for amperage, and if there is a higher capacity model, it's the one you want for DC-to-DC charging. Look up your TV on rockauto.com, replacement parts and further down the list premium parts (usually 2 amperage specs). Those running these chargers should keep their eye on the battery/Alt gauge and if you do not have one, add one.

@Geronimo John I agree with your written statements re the purpose of both the Shunt and the Solar Charger (SC). I've always seen them integrated. Look again at my Blue Sky pic above to see what I mean. I believe the SC reads the current draw data from the shunt in their charging algorithms. I may be wrong, but in the two systems I've worked with they are always installed together (perhaps not with Victron where everything is modular). We do need an experienced EE in our group!

Check out two PDF files (attachments). I installed a Bogart Engineering BMS and SC on my last RV. One doc simply explains the shunt. The other is for their SC product. Check out page 2 for the wiring diagram. They sell their SC with a shunt.

@Ronbrink I'm totally jealous of your battery bay installation, cleaned up the factory install, and everything is so NICE, excellent work!

Electrical_Shunts_Explained.pdf SC2030 INSTRUCTIONS_041018.pdf

[jd1923]

I installed the Victron SmartShunt: Amazon.com: Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) : Automotive

I went with the IP65 model and @Ronbrink installed the other version (see his pic above), same $130 price on Amazon for either. Not that waterproof is a true requirement, but not a bad feature for the battery bay, and I like that it came with the wiring at the same price. Love having this, not having to look down at knee height for our Blue Sky display (as it was installed in our older hull).

Those of you with the Victron SmartShunt, what kind of Bluetooth range are you getting? Mine is terrible!

I recently installed two Bluetooth devices, this shunt and the LevelMatePRO. The shunt is installed on top of the outer battery. The LevelMatePRO is mounted to the PD5100 ATS under the rear dinette seat, so they are about 3 feet from each other. I have to be within 20' of the Oliver for the VictronConnect App to find the SmartShunt. Unsatisfied to know I cannot connect from our living room just 60' away, to monitor over the winter w/o going outside.

The Bluetooth on the LevelMatePRO is SOOOO much stronger. From the living room, yes and it can even connect from inside of my garage over 120 feet away. In either case, our RV parking is behind a 10x20' Tuff Shed blocking line-of-sight.

Does the Victron SmartShunt merely have a weak transmitter? Read some Victron forum comments and there is a trend re weak Bluetooth. Maybe the IP65 version weaker? Anybody with the Victron BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor, is it stronger? Looks like the same shunt, but I do not see negative Victron Forum comments re the BMV-712. Let us know your feedback. Thanks

[Ronbrink]

10 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I have to be within 20' of the Oliver for the VictronConnect App to find the SmartShunt.

With my Oliver at the side drive, I can always get an app reading in the adjacent living room within a 15’ range (thru a single wall, expansive entertainment center cabinet, exterior brick veneer), and sometimes up to 25’, but not often. That said, I generally cannot sit behind the TV steering wheel and expect to monitor via the app, go figure! However, I can make use of the LevelMatePRO while driving in search of a level spot and backing onto the Anderson leveling ramps, no problem!

[MAX Burner]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:14 PM, jd1923 said:

Anybody with the Victron BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor, is it stronger?

We're using the BMV-712 located under aft dinette seat - the iPhone must be within 5-10' of the outside hull to connect...  It would be SOOOooo nice to be able to access the 712 with the app while towing.

[jd1923]

48 minutes ago, MAX Burner said:

We're using the BMV-712 located under aft dinette seat - the iPhone must be within 5-10' of the outside hull to connect...  It would be SOOOooo nice to be able to access the 712 with the app while towing.

So then, the BM-712 signal is not any stronger than the SmartShunt Bluetooth signal. I haven't tried mine while towing yet. I was connected yesterday to drain the tanks and too bad I did not think of it. Soon, I'll back my truck up the Oliver to see. I wanted signal strength to my living room! You would think at a minimum to the driver's seat!

On other forums I read the Smart Dongle has a stronger Bluetooth signal: Amazon.com: Victron Energy VE.Direct Smart Dongle (Bluetooth) : Electronics There were many forum members complaining about buying the SmartShunt and having to spend more $ on this. Also, you may need one of these to connect: Amazon.com: Victron Energy VE.Direct Cable, 5.90 ft : Automotive which comes in various lengths. We could get the Bluetooth signal out of the battery bay, higher up and run it closer to the TV.

I don't have the time to worry about it now, but perhaps another $60 would allow the app to read the signal from your driver's seat. I'm not betting on a 60' broadcast to my living room, but perhaps it could if I mounted the dongle rear left of the Oliver where I have line-of-sight. Closer to my living room, would be farther from the TV driver's seat!

[SeaDawg]

I think the bt connection was designed for boaters,,as that's historically victron market. For many years. What do we boaters want? To see what's going on, without leaving the cockpit or fly deck. 

Bluetooth isn't a super strong connection,  in most cases. But, if you enable wifi in some fashion, on your Ollie,  you can get all the reports you want. One of my friends in the marine industry monitors boats all over the coastal USA.

In my case, I can monitor the victron on the porch (35 feet or so, direct line.) Once I go in the house, nada. Zip. Too much metal.

Walking down a marina, you'll see lots of boats pop up. 

Make SURE you change the original password to your own. On any given day,in a marina,  I could play with dozens of systems.  I never would, but I could, ostensibly.