One dead wet cell battery

[Cort]

I have one dead wet cell battery and 3 fine ones. 2019 trailer - original battery set. Can I just put a new one in there or do they have to be of similar age?

[topgun2]

Unfortunately the general wisdom is that all batteries should be of approximately the same age.

Sorry.

Bill

[Dave and Kimberly]

I've been thinking about this and my gut feeling is that you shouldn't... because where do you go from here... eventually the others slowly die off... each time replacing it with a new one.   I'd agree with Bill.... just change them all out at once.

   That said...I'm wondering... if the others are still "good", why could't you continue operating on those remaining batteries until they die as well.   I'm thinking 12 volts is 12 volts and the number of batteries simply creates "capacity".   So just continue on with the remaining batteries until the your capacity becomes unacceptable for your needs.    (I have lithium... but I suspect the same logic would apply)   Then when its time... upgrade, replace... whatever, and start over.

[Cort]

Thanks - Even if it's better to replace them all I'm thinking I'll probably just replace the one and then replace them all at some point - they are four years old  - and I read the lifespan is 3-5 years - and then maybe switch to lithium. 

[ChrisMI]

I think an important distinction is do you have the base 12v wet cell batteries or the upgraded 6v deep cycle units?  Not sure if that was an upgrade available in ‘19…  If you have the deep cycle upgrade the wiring will be both in series and parallel and removing one battery is not advisable. 
 

Just replacing one battery will probably not provide a well balanced battery array. So if all four batteries are 12v the new battery will probably work considerably harder vs the older units.  During the charging cycle, at a given voltage, a higher amperage will flow to the new battery.  The opposite will happen during discharge. 
 

Short answer, if you have the base battery setup (I thought it was 2 12v wet cell but it might have changed to 4 12v in 2019) that utilizes 12v batteries, you can…remove one and run on three, replace one and know it will work harder, or use this as an excuse to upgrade to lithium (1-4 batteries). 

[Cort]

Thanks Chris, 

We have 4 wet-cell batteries.  I'm not sure about the wiring - it looks kind of convoluted to me. I'll take a picture.  We do want to go to lithium at some point. We have the Zampp controller which does have a lithium setting but are not sure about any other changes that are needed. 

[Cort]

I added the image....The batteries - which say they are deep cycle marine batteries - appear to be in parallel but there are these extra cables that I don't understand. 

With the power gone the heat is not working - darn...

[ChrisMI]

Looks like 4 12v batteries wired in parallel. If you know which battery is bad remove it and continue on. With the batteries over 4 years old and if you are not sure of the history I would replace them all with a couple lithium units or new wet cell batteries if you want to keep things the same. 

[Rivernerd]

21 hours ago, Cort said:

hanks - Even if it's better to replace them all I'm thinking I'll probably just replace the one and then replace them all at some point - they are four years old  - and I read the lifespan is 3-5 years - and then maybe switch to lithium. 

Although 4 years is on the short end of the optimal lifespan for wet cell batteries, replacing just one battery in the bank will ultimately be "penny wise and pound foolish."  In your shoes, I would "bite the bullet" and invest in a completely new battery bank.  And, if you can afford it now, I would upgrade to lithium.

[Cort]

Yes- we needed power now - so I went to Camping World and bought one battery - and everything is online but we will either upgrade to lithium or replace the other batteries shortly. 

I always planned to upgrade to lithium - I have lithium in the van and it works great. I asked Oliver the cost to upgrade to lithium - I just wanted to see what they would say - and they quoted $11,000 for 3 130 AH batteries (!) so it must be much more than a plug-and-play type thing.  I'm not sure about lithium now and am trying to figure out what's required. 

[Rivernerd]

5 minutes ago, Cort said:

Trying to figure out what's needed for lithium upgrade. 

Anything but "plug and play."  Unless you are an experienced DIYer, it is wise to hire it done.  I would not be surprised if you can find a local RV repair shop to do a lithium upgrade, perhaps with Battleborns rather than Lithionics, for much less than $11K+a drive to Hohenwald.

This thread may give you a starting point for the learning process:

 

[Cort]

Great thread! Thanks! John also sent me some great stuff - lots to chew over. 

[Ronbrink]

14 hours ago, Cort said:

I'm not sure about lithium now and am trying to figure out what's required. 

DO NOT DESPAIR!

I went from four aging 6V Trojan T-105s, 248 lbs/225 usable Ah, …..

…..to two lithium LiFePO4, 90 lbs/460 usable Ah, at a cost of less than $1600, to also include a Victron SmartShunt, necessary fuses and a couple new cables. Some of the stock cables were utilized in the swap.

 

[Cort]

Now that is in my ballpark.  My controller with the lithium option should work.  I don't know how important this is from Galway Girl as I would not be using Lithionics

  In my specific hull 505 I have a Progressive Dynamics 4000 load center.  This houses the AC Breakers, DC Fuses and a converter section for battery charging.
    In my PD4000 there is a PD 4065 Converter section (65A) with Lithium Jumper for Battery Charging. 
    In normal operation that charger is set to WIZ (or Lead Acid) position and it follows a profile that's perfect for lead acid batteries and AGM's.
    If I move the switch (or jumper) to the LI position, it now has a constant output at 14.6V which is OK for Lithium but not optimum for the Lithionics batteries.
    Lithionics prefers that I use another charger with a programmable LI profile.
    My Plan: I'm upgrading my current PD converter charger and separate Prosine 2000W inverter to an integrate  Xantrex XC2000 Pro  Charger/Inverter.
                   Note: I don't plan on running my AC off the batteries so the 2000W inverter is plenty for my needs. In the Platinum Package Oliver installs the XC3000.

[Ronbrink]

1 hour ago, Cort said:

I don't plan on running my AC off the batteries so the 2000W inverter is plenty for my needs.

My 579 came equipped with a Xantrex Freedom XC 2000; I recently added a transfer switch to operate the Dometic Penguin 11,000 BTU A/C with Micro-Air EasyStart via the house batteries. Of course, be mindful there are limitations on run time and load restrictions in doing so. I use the A/C in this manner primarily during rest stops and lunch breaks when traveling, and the DC-DC serves its’ purpose when back underway. 

[Cort]

Things have taken a turn for the worse.  After consulting with Oliver I bought a new battery from Camping world - same power output etc - but an AGM - I was told by Camping World that it was ok to substitute an AGM for a wet cell.  The power came on but this morning all 4 batteries are dead - and all now read the exact same voltage (241.0 V. I put a ticket in with Oliver and am consulting with a Camping World nearby. 

[Tom and Doreen]

It sounds like a possible mis-wiring during the replacement procedure and also an incorrect interpretation of the meter reading. Could it be possible that the replacement battery was wired in series (rather than in parallel with the other batteries) by mistake and the meter reading was 24.1 volts rather that 241.0 as stated? 

[Cort]

Good question. Thanks. The batteries are wired correctly - I took pictures before and after and they match up. I checked the volt meter on the car battery and it read 12.89 so I assume its reading correctly. Camping World says not to mix AGM and Wet cell batteries in part because the controller is set to one or the other - and it now has both. They recommend that I replace all the batteries with AGM. 

[Rivernerd]

30 minutes ago, Cort said:

They recommend that I replace all the batteries with AGM. 

Ouch!  Are you in the middle of an extended trip in your Ollie?  If so, buying 3 more AGMs may be the best way to complete your trip, presuming the one you just bought is still o.k.  AGMs, although not cheap, will buy you another 4-7 years of service, during which time the price of lithiums may continue to drop.

If you are at home, this is the time to "cut your losses" and make the switch to lithium.

If I read your posts correctly, someone at Camping World told you it was o.k. to mix AGM with wet cell?  Then, when it didn't work, they now want to sell you 3 more AGMs?  If your one new AGM is fried, I would lean hard on Camping World to sell me 4 for the price of 3, as it was their advice that killed your first AGM in the first place.

Good luck!

[jd1923]

2 hours ago, Cort said:

Things have taken a turn for the worse...
The power came on but this morning all 4 batteries are dead - and all now read the exact same voltage (241.0 V. 

How are they dead, but reading 24V? 

The only way to read 24V is two 12V batteries wired in series. If this occurred, I imagine it would cause more damage than just the battery bank. Something went wrong and it's not from adding one AGM, which is just a high-performing lead-acid battery.

[Wandering Sagebrush]

3 hours ago, Cort said:

Things have taken a turn for the worse.  After consulting with Oliver I bought a new battery from Camping world - same power output etc - but an AGM - I was told by Camping World that it was ok to substitute an AGM for a wet cell.  The power came on but this morning all 4 batteries are dead - and all now read the exact same voltage (241.0 V. I put a ticket in with Oliver and am consulting with a Camping World nearby. 

Cort, sorry to hear that things have worsened.  Like @Rivernerd said, I’d lean hard on Camping World to make things right.  If needed, escalate up the chain of command, even beyond the store manager if needed.  The 4 AGMs for the price of 3 seems reasonable.  Good luck!

[jd1923]

2 hours ago, Wandering Sagebrush said:

...I’d lean hard on Camping World to make things right...

You would really have to determine cause. @Cort how did you know you had one bad cell, not dead battery, but one dead cell? How did you know the others were good at the time? How did you get a 240V reading? My shop air compressor runs on 240V! Another member thought it might have been 24V, could it have been 2.4V? That would be a near dead battery.

What caused them all to go bad? It wasn't adding a new AGM, if wired correctly. Immediately I would remove all 4 batteries, test each voltage independently and get the new AGM on a charger. The others may have been toast when the 4th went bad. Try charging them all. Recently I left an accessory on in a car and 2-3 days later went to start the car and got nothing. The voltmeter showed the battery had about 2V in it! Because the battery was only 1 year old, with care I got it back up to full charge. Car/truck starter batteries should be regularly at 12.6V, if less then it's getting older. Deep Cycle Batteries should sit at 13.1V with a full charge. 

[Cort]

5 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

Ouch!  Are you in the middle of an extended trip in your Ollie?  If so, buying 3 more AGMs may be the best way to complete your trip, presuming the one you just bought is still o.k.  AGMs, although not cheap, will buy you another 4-7 years of service, during which time the price of lithiums may continue to drop.

If you are at home, this is the time to "cut your losses" and make the switch to lithium.

If I read your posts correctly, someone at Camping World told you it was o.k. to mix AGM with wet cell?  Then, when it didn't work, they now want to sell you 3 more AGMs?  If your one new AGM is fried, I would lean hard on Camping World to sell me 4 for the price of 3, as it was their advice that killed your first AGM in the first place.

Good luck!

We are on a trip.  This was actually my partner's first exposure to the Ollie.  She arrived for Toronto, we stayed in a hotel for a couple of days, the dog got sick - we stayed some more and then on the day of our departure I went out to the Ollie to find the batteries dead. 

Nobody has any explanation for the high voltage readings. Oliver said the batteries would be bulging at that charge and lo and behold when we removed them they read 4.10V and our new "AGM" battery - which turned out to be a wet cell battery after all  (it just looked like a dry cell and the guy at Camping World neglected to tell me it was a dry cell after I asked him if it was OK to mix them) was almost dead. 

Back to Camping World we went where they suggested that we try to recharge the new battery. We took it to Battery Plus - they said the battery was very low - was probably no good - and are seeing if it will charge properly. 

We didn't really feel we got good advice at Camping World so we talked to East Valley RV in Phoenix area - liked the guy we talked to - and bought 4 wet cell Interstate batteries there. We will try them tomorrow and see what happens 🙂

[Cort]

45 minutes ago, jd1923 said:

You would really have to determine cause. @Cort how did you know you had one bad cell, not dead battery, but one dead cell? How did you know the others were good at the time? How did you get a 240V reading? My shop air compressor runs on 240V! Another member thought it might have been 24V, could it have been 2.4V? That would be a near dead battery.

What caused them all to go bad? It wasn't adding a new AGM, if wired correctly. Immediately I would remove all 4 batteries, test each voltage independently and get the new AGM on a charger. The others may have been toast when the 4th went bad. Try charging them all. Recently I left an accessory on in a car and 2-3 days later went to start the car and got nothing. The voltmeter showed the battery had about 2V in it! Because the battery was only 1 year old, with care I got it back up to full charge. Car/truck starter batteries should be regularly at 12.6V, if less then it's getting older. Deep Cycle Batteries should sit at 13.1V with a full charge. 

Interesting - the new battery tested poorly but was accepting some charge - and we'll see if it able to charge fully. (Battery plus thinks it was probably a bad battery - we'll know by tomorrow. It's an Electric World from Camping World. 

Today the new battery was almost completely shot while the old batteries were down to 4.10 (by voltmeter) so it may have been dragging them down. That's our hope anyway. 

Since, we are burning dollars staying at a hotel we elected to buy a set of new Interstate batteries and go from there. 

[Cort]

3 hours ago, Wandering Sagebrush said:

Cort, sorry to hear that things have worsened.  Like @Rivernerd said, I’d lean hard on Camping World to make things right.  If needed, escalate up the chain of command, even beyond the store manager if needed.  The 4 AGMs for the price of 3 seems reasonable.  Good luck!

Thanks - we learned that they did sell us a wet cell (Electric World) - the guy just neglected to tell me that. That was curious because when I gave him a wet cell battery and he gave me what looked like a dry cell battery (no water cells on top - they were hidden), I specifically asked him if it was OK to combine wet cells with AGM's - and he said yes and that was it. When we took it back today we learned it was a wet cell after all.