Battery depletion rate 3% or more per day... with EVERYTHING off?

[Dave and Kimberly]

   I have my Ollie at home, so I can plug it in occasionally just to recharge the 390AH Lithium batteries.   It's not a real big deal but I can't figure out what I'm missing.   What is drawing down these batteries at such a rate?   I've went in the Oliver and turned completely off anything I can find, Lights, Furrion Entertainment system, nothing in any of the outlets, both fans are off, refrigerator is turned off.   I am stumped!

   My question to the family of Ollie owners.... Is this "normal?   I have a Calmark cover... and I've left the Solar panel switch on because (believe it or not)...  I still get a slight gain from the covered panels.

[connor77]

I'm sure it doesn't draw much but if you have the composting toilet it has a small exhaust fan that is constantly running.  It's easy to just unplug it.  Again, probably doesn't draw much but I also wondered if I had some sort of very minor parasitic draw but realized I didn't once I shut this fan off. 

The above probably represents the complete extent of my electrical knowledge 😄

[roguebooks]

I have new AGM batteries and I keep my Ollie covered the nine months it's not in use here in Florida. Last fall I had what can only be described as a parasitic drain on the batteries. I first trouble-shot the problem thinking there was something wrong with the electrical system, the different fuses, inverter, and on and on. After disconnecting the batteries and charging them up separately I decided the cheap battery disconnect my electrician installed was causing the most trouble with its corrosion and basic uselessness. The batteries did take a full charge and then kept it even when the temperatures turned cold this winter. Now I know that keeping the batteries disconnected completely from the system is key when the solar panels aren't fully charging them due to the trailer cover and the shore power stays disconnected as well. Plus I don't trust the occasional charge from the 30 amp shore power I was accustomed to doing. The solar console takes some parasitic juice as does the radio, not to mention the carbon monoxide alarm and my composting toilet fan. Of course, I am a DIY dummy and work hard at figuring things out for myself. But my hunch is you need to fully charge your batteries and totally disconnect them when the trailer is not in use. And installing one of those cheap battery disconnects is not the answer either. Completely unhooking the battery cables from the batteries is the way to go. But what do I know? Good luck. Hope I was of some assistance though there are plenty more informed people here than I am.  

Edited June 4 by roguebooks

[jd1923]

@Dave and Kimberly and @roguebooks, something wired must be drawing current! Daily loss of 3% is not normal! Not at all. You must figure out what is ON and drawing current. I read a post or two here where the newer model fridge cannot be turned off. @connor77 mentioned a compost toilet. I have no idea, would never have one, but could the fan be running? Yep, that's a good 3%. Something is ON!

I have a 105AH AGM house battery from a past project, just sitting on a shelf in our shed and it can sit there for 2 months, and it barely needs a charge (still 12.7V +/-). I would say it's losing 3% per month. Not a measured number, but this is a magnitude of difference vs. per day. I put a charger on it every 1-2 months to keep it good. At 3% daily loss, this battery would be completely dead in two months. BTW, lifepo4 batteries hold their charge over time even better!

I do not store our Oliver, so solar is always active. However, I installed the Victron SmartShunt (something you should do for $40), so I can watch battery consumption day and night. At night our Oliver uses 10W (0.8A) consistently, meaning every night always! And this 10W consumption is mainly the outdoor courtesy lights I leave on every night to deter critters. Our peristatic draw is often 0.25A (3W). It amazes me since we have owned our Oliver how little power it draws, even with many lights at night, inverter on, TV and soundbar, etc. and we only have lead-acid batteries.

First do a simple shunt install, so you can via the app see immediate changes in +/- amps. There are many threads on this install here. Read negative Amps (-A) showing usage at night and start pulling fuses until you see a change in the readings. Best wishes and keep us posted as to the resulting cause. JD

Edited June 4 by jd1923
typos

[Geronimo John]

The issue could just be parasitic losses.  But I seriously doubt it.  But to stop them entirely is impossible if you are connected.  If we can not visit our trailers often when stored, what most of us do is to install a battery cutoff switch.  The BlueSeas 350-amp one is the choice many of us recommend and use.    

John Davies went the extra 20 miles to try to eliminate all of his.  Hegot close, but failed to get to near zero.  That said 3% a day is not parasitic.  That's a load. I would turn off and pull every fuse in the trailer. It should take you WAY down, but not all the way to zero.  I store my Ollie for 8.5 to 9 months a year during all the cold months.  During those months, many on a mountain in Oklahoma, my litho's will lose about 10% SOC.  Certainly not 3% a day or even a month. Then install several at a time to  help you narrow down the circuit(s) "leaking" power.    This will be visible on your Shunt.  

I also recommend a clamp on amp meter as Mr. Davies suggested.  The Shunt will tell you how much, but it will not always tell you where.  The amp meter is a great tool to figure that out.    

Battleborn has specific protocols depending upon your storage situation. So call you MFG of your lithos.  But if they say kill the flow , see above.

I hope this helps.

GJ

Edited June 4 by Geronimo John

[MobileJoy]

6 hours ago, jd1923 said:

However, I installed the Victron SmartShunt (something you should do for $40), so I can watch battery consumption day and night.

The Lithionics 130Ah batteries have a built-in battery management system with Bluetooth capability, plus they provide an app that can be used to monitor the individual batteries. You can see the state of charge as a percentage (Lithionics recommends against using this number alone), or you can look at each battery's voltage. I have found this to be adequate regarding battery monitoring. I have no experience with the SmartShunt, so could someone who has installed one with the Lithionics batteries please chime in here? I am also unfamiliar with Battleborn's management system, so perhaps Geronimo John could describe his reasoning for the shunt.

The Lithionics batteries can be individually shut off. Can you say why you chose to leave them on? The solar panels can also be shut off.

[Ronbrink]

I experienced much the same issue, and will share what I found out and truly believe what may, in part, be going on. When on shore power, take a look at the Progressive Industries EMS digital display. I noticed a 1A draw and could not figure out why, despite the fact that everything was shutdown to the best of my knowledge. I would have to make a weekly trip to the storage facility to activate the ‘initial’ charging aspect of the Xantrex to bring my battery bank up; this involved tripping the 30A main breaker Off then On again. Upon researching, I learned that the Xantrex has a 1A draw even when turned Off. To remedy, I now trip the surface mounted circuit breakers for the Xantrex and DC located under the street side bed. Problem solved, at least for now; zero draw on the batteries! I plan to install a Victron Cerbo and dedicated charger to maintain the battery bank since the Xantrex ‘maintenance’ charge feature is not working. 

[jd1923]

I'm getting only -0.25A with the Xantrex 2000 OFF and breaker ON and -0.80A with the exterior courtesy lights on. I do not care since ours is never winter stored.

If the Lithionics app shows total +/- Amps then the batteries have a built-in shunt. I installed a shunt since I have lead acid the only way to read SOC is via a Blue Sky panel mounted at knee height under the pantry. Clicking through the menus to get other data is also painful.

We will be migrating to more Victron products over time. When I upgrade to a Victron 3000W inverter the shunt VE port will be plug and play. When I upgrade to lifepo4, we will go with Epoch without paying extra for an internal comms. 

I can read this display while sitting in my living room about 70 FT away. This is a screenshot today, 9AM on a hazy morning. Only +0.62A is being added by the Blue Sky solar charger since the batteries are full and do not need additional charge. Certainly worth $40 and the time it took to build a shorty battery cable.

[Dave and Kimberly]

   Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.   I didn't respond immediately because I wanted to double check my facts once again.  I realized that when I had turned off the Xantrex inverter and stepped away it simply dropped down to the "battery only" mode.   So, corrected the inverter switch problem and then I flipped each breaker switch off... and in order to get a more accurate reading also turned off the solar panel switch.  I once again looked as carefully as possible for anything that could be on.  The TV antenna red light is off.  When I walked out of the Oliver the only thing on was the little green light on the CO2 detector under dinette table... which I'm sure is 12volt.

On 6/4/2024 at 12:46 AM, Geronimo John said:

 If we can not visit our trailers often when stored, what most of us do is to install a battery cutoff switch.  The BlueSeas 350-amp one is the choice many of us recommend and use. 

GJ- I didn't know what a BlueSeas 350-amp shut-off switch was till I looked it up.  Appears to be the same thing Oliver installed for turning the solar panels on/off.   I'm not certain where or how to install one of those, but it might be an option?

   I have the Lithionics App on my phone (three 130ah batteries OEM installed by Oliver).   Because sometimes there is some difference between one battery and the next... each one of these readings is from the same battery.  From the Lithionics app;  Yesterday at 10:40am it read 90%, this morning at 7:58am it read 86%... and just now at 3:38pm its reading 85%.    I know this isn't right... but there isn't anything running.  No fan, light, refrigerator.  The Truma water heater is off (on the wall) and I just went out to turn it off at the outside switch as well.   

    I've always noticed more "parasitic loss" than I felt was appropriate but because we were using the camper so regularly it didn't seem problematic (255 days in 18 months of ownership).  Now some family issues are keeping us from traveling this summer.    In the two years we've owned it I also never turned off the lithium batteries until a few days ago.   It became necessary when one of my batteries went below the 10% BMS cut-off point.   It wouldn't allow the batteries to recharge (I do it by simply plugging the Oliver into a 20amp plug for a few hours)  A simple on and off reset it and it resumed normal  charging.  

    I even suspected that the "battery heater blanket" that Oliver installs could be malfunctioning... even though it's obviously not below freezing... but the battery BMS is showing 78 degrees... which is about ambient air temp here in Ohio... so I don't think that's the problem either.

    Two things are left to me at this point.  1) Pull each one of the 12 volt fuses from the panel under dinette and 2) simply turn all three of the batteries off... but in order to check SOC... they would need to be turned back on.   Either of these solutions I find un satisfying because it doesn't identify the root cause.

Edited June 6 by Dave and Kimberly

[topgun2]

Why not simply remove the main negative battery cable from the batteries and see what happens?

Bill

[jd1923]

5 minutes ago, topgun2 said:

Why not simply remove the main negative battery cable from the batteries and see what happens? Bill

@Dave and Kimberly This is the old-school method for storage. I've done this alone for 40+ years on anything automotive that will sit a few months, for charge loss and safety reasons. It appears you have three 12V LI batteries wired in parallel. The grounds between the batteries can remain as wired. The cable providing ground back to the interior must be disconnected. Keep in mind that in this state, with ground disconnected, the batteries cannot provide power nor be charged. So, get them fully charged first.

If you prefer, you can install a switch at the batteries, in line with the cable described above, or where that main ground cable comes into the interior prior to any connection to negative busbar or device (inverter, 12v panel, etc). It's relatively easy at the battery location. Besides the switch you would need a shorty cable or short copper bar to connect the switch to the battery post.

I would want to figure out cause of the constant current draw. Given you have an Amp reading on your Lithionics App, I would do as you wrote "1) Pull each one of the 12 volt fuses from the panel under dinette..." Pull each 12V fuse one at a time looking for a change in amp reading that reads less negative. Of course, you must have shore power disconnected and the solar feed switched off too.

[Geronimo John]

Before responding back on JD's excellent post, not being familiar with your batteries, is there a way to absolutely ensure that all three battery heaters is OFF?  Switch? Take a wire off? Etc?

Now back to JD's Post.  I agree fully.  It is in line with what we discussed earlier but with more detail.  I would take a micro-step further and suggest after getting to full SOC, that you equalize the batteries.  See YOUR battery MFG procedure to do so.  Then proceed as suggested with you fuse pulling effort.  

[Dave and Kimberly]

I’m going to try each suggestion… one at a time over the next few days to see if I can isolate anything.  Starting with Rinbrink idea. 
& “now trip the surface mounted switch for the Xantrex and DC located under the street side bed. Problem solved, at least for now; zero draw on the batteries!”

then of course there is TOPGUNS old school idea of simply disconnecting a main ground wire.

GJ-  know it’s “doable” to take the batteries out and investigate the “heater blanket”… but I’m putting off that because, well mainly I’m lazy and it sounds like a lot of work… but it’s on my list too.   
  I should say I am familiar with using the Lithionics app… and despite the obvious contradiction…. It says there is zero draw.???

   SOMETHING is drawing down my batteries.  I started out thinking that the answer would be easy to find.  Just know that I appreciate the thoughtful suggestions and I’m looking into them.   If I discover anything useful… I will for sure post what it is😀

[Steph and Dud B]

I saw some strange behavior with the Lithionics-reported SOC while our trailer was stored indoors in a similar situation, with some trickle from the solar due to interior lights in the garage, etc. The two batteries were "discharging" at very different rates based on the reported SOC. Importantly , the actual voltages were the same. I tried discharging them, then recharging to full to reset the SOC calibration with no luck. Then I tried turning solar off with no change. However, when I pulled the trailer out of the garage and got regular solar running again everything went back to normal. I have no reasonable explanation, but I don't think you can trust the SOC reading too much when it's stored this way. Voltage is a better indicator. @Dave and Kimberly, how do the voltages in this chart for 12v LifePo4 batteries compare to your batteries' voltages and the SOC being reported? 

[Geronimo John]

22 minutes ago, Steph and Dud B said:

Voltage is a better indicator. @Dave and Kimberly, how do the voltages in this chart for 12v LifePo4 batteries compare to your batteries' voltages and the SOC being reported? 

For Lead Acid or AGM's yes.  But when discussing Litho's, the Amps in vs. Amps out is the standard.

Now, when you have a super small charge rate and draws, not even a SOC system (Such as Victron 712's and better) can keep up with the drift.  So at the end of the storage period, a full on "fill up" is required with additional charging time for equalization.  That should reset the clock so to speak.

GJ

[jd1923]

7 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

... is there a way to absolutely ensure that all three battery heaters are OFF? 

If the engineering behind the Lithionics product would allow ANY current to the heater when temps are above freezing or say above 35+ degrees Fahrenheit, the heater should be disconnected. This very well could be the cause of 3% daily loss. @Geronimo John hit this on the nail!

Oh, and if you are losing 3% daily and the Lithionics app shows no negative current draw, the app is not reading correctly. Loss of SOC can only occur with -Amps over a period of time. Love my $40 shunt, pure and simple, mounted to the negative terminal of my battery bank ALWAYS shows -A when batteries are discharging, and +A the next morning in the Arizona sun!

You can disconnect the ground and not worry about the cause (easy solution, takes just 5 min) or strip the overhead out of these batteries. If they were mine, I would first bypass the heaters, and if that did not solve the problem, I would disconnect their BMS and monitor my batteries the old-fashioned way, with system shunt or a simple voltmeter. 😂

Edited June 7 by jd1923

[Geronimo John]

On 6/3/2024 at 2:10 PM, roguebooks said:

But my hunch is you need to fully charge your batteries and totally disconnect them when the trailer is not in use.

Precisely stated!  Yep. For sure.  

Thanks for also sharing that a cheap service disconnect is not the way to go.  

GJ

[Geronimo John]

1 hour ago, jd1923 said:

You can disconnect the ground and not worry about the cause (easy solution, takes just 5 min)

You are of course are correct.

But, I already stepped on that land mine in 2019.  I took the position you espoused (DISCO the Batteries).   But got my knees taken out by an owner that said that may work for you (Me at the time) as your voyages are very long,  His were short and doing the process many times a season was not realistic.  I had to admit he was correct.  Hence my 350 A BlueSeas Master Battery Switch install....

[Dave and Kimberly]

12 hours ago, Steph and Dud B said:

I saw some strange behavior with the Lithionics-reported SOC while our trailer was stored indoors in a similar situation, with some trickle from the solar due to interior lights in the garage, etc. The two batteries were "discharging" at very different rates based on the reported SOC. Importantly , the actual voltages were the same. I tried discharging them, then recharging to full to reset the SOC calibration with no luck. Then I tried turning solar off with no change. However, when I pulled the trailer out of the garage and got regular solar running again everything went back to normal. I have no reasonable explanation, but I don't think you can trust the SOC reading too much when it's stored this way. Voltage is a better indicator. @Dave and Kimberly, how do the voltages in this chart for 12v LifePo4 batteries compare to your batteries' voltages and the SOC being reported? 

Thats a good idea... I understand that drift can throw the battery SOC off... in fact, thats why I let the batteries go down farther than normal in the first place so that I could "reset" the SOC.   To answer your voltage question:  Currently the batteries are registering, from the Lithionics app 84% SOC and 13.28 volts.

 Key points:   

• to clarify with some who asked;  I do not have a composting toilet. (I understand that they have a fan that can be operating)
• I believe there is a switch w/red light indicating on... in the battery compartment (2022 model) that turns the battery blanket on/off.   It has been off.  (so I guess not so hard to turn off the heating blanket under batteries 🙂 )
• There is a button on the top of each battery that turns that specific battery on/off/reset.   Those are on.
• I've turned the solar panels off... just to eliminate that variable.
• Turned off all the AC side breakers OFF.
• On the 12 volt circuit panel I pulled each one of the fuses.  (of course now there are several red lights indicating no circuit) 

Also the batteries were (just last week) brought up to 100% and then I closed the camper back up.   I am charging them back up to 100% now, I've taken out all the 12 volt fuses from circuit panel and all breakers are off on the AC breaker panel.   

PS-  wasn't sure how to do the "quote" thing so... we'll see how this looks when I hit submit.

Edited June 7 by Dave and Kimberly
better phrasing

[Geronimo John]

1 hour ago, Dave and Kimberly said:

 I am charging them back up to 100% now, I've taken out all the 12 volt fuses from circuit panel and all breakers are off on the AC breaker panel.   

 

1 hour ago, Dave and Kimberly said:

On the 12 volt circuit panel I pulled each one of the fuses.

Ok we have now almost completely killed all the possible loads ... except:

• There is a fuse panel in the attic.  Hopefully you got those as well.
• Would pull the smoke  and the CO2/Propane detectors out if you can.  I think the CO2/Propane may be hard wired if so, leave it.
• A wild card:  Have you had any problems with the trailer lights being on when they should be off? If so, spray out the plug with CRC brake cleaner.  (Yea this is a very small leakage if the plug is wet and dirty.
• With a nod to Ronbrink, do you have a Xantrex?  (Trip it's circuit protection)  1 amp X 24 hours = 24 amp hours.  360 AH system divided by 24 ah/day = 15 days to dead battery.  

If the battery charge is still declining as before, Recharge and disconnect the one of the 4/0 wires to isolate the batteries.  If they sink out, then you know it's them.  

In retrospect this likely would have been a better starting point as suggested by Topgun2 and JD.  But just think of all you have learned in this process!  🙂  😞

 

[Geronimo John]

If after all the above you still are losing power, time to Recharge again and DISCO the batteries from each other.  I have not heard of any such failures before, but at least this would be a warranty replacement for sure.   You certainly could run without one of them during the process.

GJ

[Fritz]

Dave and Kimberly -- here's a long shot, but ...  I sometimes leave the trailer hooked up to shore power but set the "ignition charge control" on the inverter to "auto-off."  This allows use of 120V appliances without a constant charge to the batteries.  Furthermore, I sometimes also turn off the solar to allow the batteries to drift to a lower SOC (for the health of the batteries).  I've noticed the Xantrex charger/inverter draws electricity when simply connected to shore power.  Thus, if you have shore power connected but everything else turned off (including solar), the inverter/converter could be drawing enough to contribute to a 3% SOC drop per day.  

[Ronbrink]

16 hours ago, Fritz said:

Thus, if you have shore power connected but everything else turned off (including solar), the inverter/converter could be drawing enough to contribute to a 3% SOC drop per day.  

That was exactly my point in a previous comment! Since my OTT is always on shore power when in storage, I have a Victron Cerbo and NOCO 10A charger ready to install in unison, which will be programmed to kick on said charger when the LFPs’ SOC drops to a set level. This will eliminate my worries of a depleted battery bank over an extended period in storage. 

[Geronimo John]

3 hours ago, Ronbrink said:

I have a Victron Cerbo and NOCO 10A charger ready to install in unison, which will be programmed to kick on said charger when the LFPs’ SOC drops to a set level. This will eliminate my worries of a depleted battery bank over an extended period in storage.

Ronbrink: The following does not apply for your Houston location. 

But for others they need to be aware that most Lithium's per the MFG's must not be stored at full SOC for locations where there is any possibility of them freezing.

GJ

[Ronbrink]

2 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Ronbrink: The following does not apply for your Houston location. 

But for others they need to be aware that most Lithium's per the MFG's must not be stored at full SOC for locations where there is any possibility of them freezing.

GJ

Very good point, thanks for stating!

@Geronimo John, I failed to emphasize that the Cerbo can be set to disable charging of my LiFePO4s at low temperatures, thus eliminating any concerns of damage during freezing conditions. The SOC can also be set to maintain a partial charge (40-60% range) for LFPs being stored for more than a month. 

Edited June 8 by Ronbrink