Potential Battery Upgrade

[Wayfinder]

@SeaDawg again, thanks for all the good advice. 

@topgun2 I'm starting a clean thread on this as not to drive SeaDawg crazier.  LOL

 

I was hoping to do a systems upgrade in pieces, if possible. First converter (in the mail), then batteries, etc - if that makes sense. 

Right now with hull #110 (2016), I have all original equipment, except batteries.  Currently Flooded lead-acid.  

I have the Xantrex 2000W inverter with the BlueSky Solar controller and ProRemote.  

I did just pick up a new Victron Smartshunt, but holding off installing it until I choose new batteries.

I'm an IT guy of 30 years, so not a complete dumb monkey, but maybe a bit slow at first.  LOL. I'm always scared to try new things by myself, failing with someone else is not that bad.

Also just ordered the new Progressive Industries converter (PD4045CSV) to allow for Lithium charging. 

Great threads on these forums for all that stuff!

I was wondering if the Bluesky Solar controller can be configured to properly charge most Lithiums.  I can always call Ryan, if he's still at BlueSky.  He showed me how to configure the controller using the ProRemote panel.  I'm okay with it.

Naturally, I'd love all Victron stuff, if it would fit nicely.  And again, I want some hand-holding by a qualified person.  Maybe I'll seek out a pro who would allow me to work with them to learn.  Some do, especially in the Van community.

I'm not yet looking at running the A/C off of batteries.  That'll take a newer A/C unit.  Not a priority at the moment and keeping it as simple as possible.

Realizing I'm just learning and dreaming, and there are MANY paths from which to choose, here's just one idea I was recently considering, due to battery form-factor in the current battery box & tray area. I'm sure there are negatives I'm not thinking about yet.

Can I, or should I, do this in stages?  Naturally money will be a factor, and I'm a working stiff, so time can be an issue.

One thought is to install two 320AH Dakota DL+ batteries to make for a simple and clean wiring setup with redundancy built-in.

I was briefly considering a single 320AH battery from Dakota, or any good battery, however, that does not give me any redundancy if one battery fails on a long trip.

I'm okay with Battleborns, 12v 100AH, but I'd want very clean connections, maybe a custom bus bar to connect all the batteries with shrink tubing and covers to protect connector bars.

At best, I currently only have 160 Ah useable in my old crappy lead-acids.  Likely less due to age.

Pics are not to scale.

I am subject to all the things I have not yet considered, that you will teach me.  LOL

Thanks!

Edited July 6 by Wayfinder

[MAX Burner]

Hey, Chris - we met at the owner's rally last month.  Wish we could've talked more about this then and exchange a ton of info...

Anyhow, I'm thinking you're right on track with your approach.  Breaking this down a bit, IMO - the battery upgrade (whatever AH storage you choose) and the Victron SmartShunt is what I would call Phase-1.  Your 4/0 connections between the batteries and inverter are spot on.  Depending on the distance to your negative and positive bus bars - you may consider at least 4 AWG, but that's just me.  

We upgraded with 2 BB's for a 300AH storage and its suited us very well for our style of camping and boondocking.  We'd love to have 640AH or more so we could run the AC for extended periods - that's on our radar, for sure.  Don't worry about the "custom" battery connections because you'll be making them yourself with the proper tools - several posts regarding this are found in these forums.

The new 45W PD converter board with the Lithium switch is another spot on move on your part.  We did the exact same thing last year with the BB upgrade.  We've had ZERO issues (knocking on my head) with the PD converter/charger.

Regarding the Blue Sky charge controller - this is a great piece of kit.  We ran an MPPT BS CC on our AS with 4 AGMs with no issues.  The key is if yours is a PWM or MPPT controller.  You'll get way better efficiency with the MPPT version - just something to consider.  We chose to go with Victron's MPPT 30A CC - very happy with its performance with the 340W worth of modules on the roof.

OK, Victron.  Great devices, IMO.  Except for our Renogy 200W portable modules - everything so far has been a Victron upgrade for our style of boondocking.  Game-changer?  Maybe.  But your Phase-2 might be to get your Victron DC/DC charger.  There's a new 50A model available - ours is the 30A unit, but it's plenty of current to get the SOC to max-out by the end of a tow-day.  These chargers are real happy running off new smart alternators in TVs manufactured since roughly 2015.  @Geronimo John has a wonderful LOI (list of instructions) for this modification, TV and OTT.

Phase-3:  Victron's GSX monitoring system with either the 5" or 7" touch screen.  The screen graphically indicates the status of your charging/load conditions with just a touch.  It's a sweet addition to any Oliver owner intend on extended boondocking operations - again, this upgrade is based on your particular style of camping/boondocking.

Phase-4/5:  Timing of this could easily be based on when your Xantrex 2kW inverter goes Tango Uniform.  When ours goes down we'll go for the Victron 3k inverter/charger.  Then crank in Phase-5 - this consists of upgrading to an "efficient and quiet" 13.5kBTU HVAC unit with appropriate auto transfer switches that can operate from the battery bank for extended periods.

As you've probably already experienced, this path is a very deep and broad RABBIT HOLE!  What you're contemplating is not a trivial endeavor - it's like trying to eat an elephant.  It's doable, but you have to take it one bite at a time...

PM anytime specific challenges arise - we'd be happy to help out, brother!

My $0.02

[Wayfinder]

Thanks Max Burner,

Yeah, I have the good ole MPPT CC from BlueSky.  I'd love some confirmations on these numbered pieces.

1. A shunt to what, I'm not sure.

2. Kills the BlueSky Charge Controller

3. I'm not sure yet. 

 

Also with Lithium batteries, where did you send up placing your Victron SmartShunt?

Thanks,

[topgun2]

#1 - sends the information to your IPN remote where you see information similar to that info you will see with the Victron you bought.

#2 - this "switchable breaker" can be used to interrupt solar power from getting to the batteries.

#3 - this "switchable breaker" can be used to interrupt dc power from the batteries to the rest of the Oliver.

note - both #'s 2 and 3 should be "tripped" prior to working on your batteries.

Bill

[MAX Burner]

1 hour ago, Wayfinder said:

1. A shunt to what, I'm not sure.

Hey, Chris:

So, what @topgun2 Bill explained above is dead nuts on.  

At a high level, here's a description of the Smart Shunt:  The SS continuously monitors multiple elements of the electro-motive force going through your DC circuitry - these elements include, current voltage, current, SOC%, useful battery time remaining, battery temperature, etc.  Our's is mounted under the aft dinette seat where I'm pointing with my left index finger:

The key here is to wire all your DC devices' negative connections through a "NEG Buss Bar."  If you miss one and connect a DC device directly to the battery bypassing the SmartShunt, it will not be detected.  So, the right lug of the SS jumps over to the negative buss bar and the left lug jumps directly to the battery bank.

It's called, "Smart", because it's Blue Tooth-enabled allowing it to communicate to its corresponding mobile app.  Here's what the Victron app's Home Screen looks like on my phone:

At the top it shows the Victron "Cerbo unit" data block - this is sort of the central nervous system of both your AC and DC circuitry.  The Cerbo unit tells the user graphically where AC and DC power is going at any point in time - either via the app or by the touch screen.  This device is not required unless you desire it for extended boondocking or for your particular style of camping.  Going down, the app next displays the SS status, turns out the SS's BlueTooth signal isn't very strong - but we can monitor this screen from the TV while under tow and track SOC status.  After the SS data block is the Smart Solar MPPT Charge Controller data coming into the system.  If we were connect to the TV when I took this screen shot (and the engine running) the app would also show the DC/DC Charger data - since we're not connected w/engine running the charger is OFF and therefore, no data block is displayed for it on the app.

The next screen shot is specific to the SS:

This gives the user a different graphic of the Home Screen that's specific to the SS.

If your "Phase 1" includes Lithiums, suggest you consider including a SS at the same time.  You'll be making rather large custom battery cables anyway, so with those tools (cable cutters, lugs, lug crimper, heat shrink, and heat gun) out and ready, it will be a straight forward process to make your SS/Bus Bar cables as part of this first phase.

A note on the NEG Bus Bar:  On our hull, the factory negative bus was a "pole type" bus that's grounded to the frame right under aft dinette seat.  It wasn't robust enough to handle the additional negative connections, so that explains why we decided to upgrade to a Blue Sea Systems multiple lug bus bar.  We used the same grounding point on the frame as was used for the factory pole bus.

Hope this helps out, Chris.  

Good luck and keep us posted on your upgrade!

Cheers!

 

[Wayfinder]

Thank you guys for all the great info.  I'm making new documents with pics and explanations not only for me, but the next owner, if ever.  These docs will be updated as the camper gets updates. 

I also keep fairly extensive maintenance & parts logs.

[Rivernerd]

16 hours ago, Wayfinder said:

One thought is to install two 320AH Dakota DL+ batteries to make for a simple and clean wiring setup with redundancy built-in.

I have had good luck for the past 4 years with Dakota Lithium LiFePO4 batteries.  I use them to power my 12V CPAP machine on wilderness river trips.

Thanks for your diagrams showing that two 320ah Dakota Lithium batteries will fit into the Oliver battery tray.  If I ever need to replace my Lithionics G31 batteries we bought with our 2022 Elite II, those diagrams will be helpful.

[jd1923]

18 hours ago, Wayfinder said:

Chris, the measurements shown here are for the Dakota 280AH battery. The 320AH battery is 15.06" long. Two times 280 = 560AH is not a bad number either, if the sliding tray is important to you.

Given the battery comparison doc @topgun2 shared yesterday in another thread, there are other good options. The best value is Epoch, two 300AH batteries at $1,099 each, will fit in the OEM battery tray. The downside is they are likely manufactured in China, though deemed dependable.

It appears Dakota and Battleborn are Made in USA. However, a 100AH BB makes no sense today, as it might have just a couple years ago. Not when you can get 300AH in one battery at a slightly larger footprint.

When I upgrade to LiFePO4, I'm removing the OEM tray for sure! I want more AH to fit the 24x18" size vs. the 21x14" tray size. It also gives 3" more in height w/o the tray, so you can physically get your arms in above the batteries. The true purpose of the tray is for watering LA batteries and after a LI install you can just forget about them for years and you're not going to use the sliding tray.

I'm going for ~900AH when we upgrade. Without the battery tray you can fit 3 of the Dakota 320s, three of the Epoch 300s (for way less $$$), or you can three of these. Love this new Texas company that I just learned of yesterday, at $2K per 300AH (vs. $2400 for the Dakota 320AH). Two will not fit in the tray, but 3 will fit w/o the tray! Big Beard Battery 12-Volt 300AH 3600 Watt Lithium Battery | Big Beard Batteries

[jd1923]

The picture on this page, showing the Big Beard battery standing up got me thinking... You can fit four (4) of these bad boys standing up in the Oliver battery bay! (no tray of course, for the off-grid crazies out there) Big Beard Battery 12-Volt 300AH 3600 Watt Lithium Battery | Big Beard Batteries

[Wayfinder]

3 hours ago, jd1923 said:

The picture on this page, showing the Big Beard battery standing up got me thinking... You can fit four (4) of these bad boys standing up in the Oliver battery bay! (no tray of course, for the off-grid crazies out there) Big Beard Battery 12-Volt 300AH 3600 Watt Lithium Battery | Big Beard Batteries

It would have to be completely cloudy and off-grid for ..... maybe a month or two before using all that, with some A/C usage.

Also, I love me some of Todd's "Two Minute Tech-Tip Tuesday", but they have a lot to prove with those batteries.  Maybe something about the name, "Big Beard Battery".  🤷‍♂️

[Wayfinder]

When I'm at the OTT factory in a couple weeks, I'll have a lot of new questions and taking closer looks at the latest electrical setup.  

[MAX Burner]

1 hour ago, Wayfinder said:

Maybe something about the name, "Big Beard Battery".  🤷‍♂️

I'm like'n it!

[SeaDawg]

Is the Bigbeard lithium phosphate (lifepo4)? Not finding the chemistry specs. Also concerning is a tag on "for indoor use only". Not impressed with their website.

Maybe I missed something. 

Edited June 26 by SeaDawg

[SeaDawg]

Found this. So, yes, lfp/lifepo4

Edited June 26 by SeaDawg

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, MAX Burner said:

I'm like'n it!

Have you seen the dude? Personally, Chris and I are not beard people, don't get the big beard thing, let alone a naming your battery company as such. Beards, tattoos, piercings, young people needing a good bath and shampoo... I'll stop there.

I would say that if there is a new viable battery company, producing great product in Athens TX (not just a website, would want to know of the manufacturing facility), I would support them. I prefer the small co vs online reputation.

We have driven through Athens TX, a cute East Texas town like many others, a good half dozen times traveling from Georgetown TX to UT Tyler TX for Adam's tennis tournaments during high school and college.

Love all the great small towns of Texas! In East Texas they have a local burger chain named "Jucys." Hey @Jason Foster what do ya know about Jucys? Can you FedEx overnight me a 3/4 LB butter burger with fries? (make that 4 orders!)

Jucys Hamburgers | Best Burger in East Texas

[Jps190]

I second the Epoch batteries.  Great build quality.  Those Dakotas are WAY overpriced.

 

John

[Wayfinder]

I'm surprised to see many companies now offering 11 year warranties.  Let's face it.  Nothing outside of good water heaters offers that length of support.  Interesting.  Says a lot about the technology, that's getting to be all too common.  Only time will tell.

[Steve and MA]

10 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I would say that if there is a new viable battery company, producing great product in Athens TX (not just a website, would want to know of the manufacturing facility), I would support them. I prefer the small co vs online reputation.

We haven't been to Athens and didn't know about Big Beard before reading this thread.  You got us curious as to whether they actually build their batteries, or if they're just an online storefront.  They have the same address (9024 US Highway 175 West, Athens, TX 75751) as the Big Red School House & Community Center - Athens, Texas.  Maybe the facility name inspired the battery brand name. Big Red appears to be a RV tech training business. Big Beard seems to be a new player in the battery market, but appears to be legit. If we were shopping batteries then we'd check them out.

[topgun2]

2 hours ago, Wayfinder said:

I'm surprised to see many companies now offering 11 year warranties. 

Note that - like anything else - these warranties are only as good as the company that issues them.  If the issuing company is no longer in business 5, 6, 7, etc. years down the road then the warranty means little.

As I said in a recent post, most, if not all, of these lithium battery "cells" are actually made in China.  The batteries that we see are then either also made in China or assembled in the USA.  And, the same can be said relative to the battery management systems that are such an important part of the overall battery.

Due to this, in my recent purchase of a set of lithium batteries, I relied on a fairly well known YouTube "professional" who (I hope) knows much more than I do about the construction, operation and overall quality of these things.

Hopefully, once this market settles down and a "normal" pricing level is reached all of us can approach purchasing batteries with the same kind of analysis that we presently do with AGM and/or lead acid batteries (i.e. you get what you pay for - in most cases).

Bill

Edited June 26 by topgun2
grammer

[Wayfinder]

Well, as many of you know, the converter/charger upgrade is easy.  I had no issues with mine. Step one "check".  The cricket noise may or may not have gone away.  I cannot tell with Tinnitus - same sound.

I checked basic functionality of the charger/converter with my Jackery 3000 Pro.  Everything seems fine. Even ran the A/C for a while.

 

[Wayfinder]

Well darn.  I'm not sure if this is normal.  I don't think it is. There seems to be a -2.3Amp draw on the system, even with every breaker off, EVERY 12v fused pulled out, and every resettable breaker popped open under the driver's side buck.  

Could this be the new converter/charger doing this?  

I need to wait for a cooler day to switch back to check.  It's nasty hour in Georgia this morning.

The only other thing changed was the battery configuration after tray clean-up. See battery diagrams, current -vs- orginal.  That's the easiest to put back.

There is NOTHING plugged into the trailer.  No shore power, etc.

Updated: I just ran through the troubleshooting instructions from Progressive Industries, everything checks out perfect and batteries are charging off of shore power, 120v/20a receptacle. https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/PD4045-TROUBLESHOOTING.pdf

For my 2016 Ollie, the converter breaker is the 15amp breaker all the way to the right of the panel picture below.

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30 by Wayfinder

[jd1923]

Chris, a few things seem strange here. Why did you bother cleaning up/changing battery cables when your plan is to replace these soon with LiFePO4 batteries? But either wiring configuration (many are possible) will not create a -2.3A draw. You either have the +/- cables right or wrong. From your schematics it appears you just changed where the main red + cable connects. This is not your issue.

How is your Blue Sky panel live with the solar off? I could check mine again later today, but I'm pretty sure when I throw the OFF switch left of the solar controller there are no lights on the charger itself (your picture shows no lights there) and the status panel should be dead too, no live LCD screen and charge status light.

I would think the new PD converter/charger should be designed as the old one, in that when there is no shore power it is OFF, completely off. If not, this is a bad design. You can test this by simply removing the battery cables top right of the PD unit. I assume the yellow is the Bat- and the Red is Bat+, so to be safe remove the yellow first. Either way be careful not to arc current here with your tool.

Lastly the Blue Sky system has its own shunt (top right in your picture showing the solar controller). This is what gives you the -2.3A reading. We have the same setup, hulls 110 vs. 113. I believe this shunt monitors the solar system, but not every +/- to the batteries due to its location. I have added a full system shunt at the battery ground (which you should do with your LI upgrade). I have not studied this fully, but I could see if my Victron SmartShunt is getting the same amp reading as the Blue Sky panel shows. I stopped looking at the Blue Sky panel since it is at knee height and now I use the Victron App.

Buy one of these for your LiFePO4 upgrade: Amazon.com: Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) : Automotive

Another thing to try, is if you have a multimeter with the clamp end, put the clamp around your battery cables, the main cables leaving your battery back, red or black is fine, one will show negative the other positive but the same number. This is your total system draw (not just Blue Sky). This is what the SmartShunt measures since all grounds are after the shunt. When I have everything OFF and it's dark outside, the reading is generally -0.26A which runs the CO monitor and the Xantrex on standby and that's it.

I can see if my Blue Sky panel and SmartShunt are showing the same numbers, but by the time I can get out there today it will be after dinnertime for you! 

[jd1923]

I had a few minutes to check this prior to our Sunday after Church pickleball. No luck on this one. Ever since the SmartShunt addition, I have no real reason to check my Blue Sky Panel. It's dead and needs resetting (power down for 10 min). Problem is with the work I've been doing lately we have two 10" mattresses on that side and they're heavy and I can't move them for a couple days (see pic).

I tried holding down most combinations of these buttons and nothing worked. However, I believe you have enough to go on from my last post for troubleshooting. 

Edited June 30 by jd1923

[SeaDawg]

Your blue sky will likely show nothing til it senses it's hit 100 per cent. It works on algorithms,  and reset is 100 per cent.

Call or email Ryan at Blue Sky if you continue to have problems.  He's truly a wizard. Totally knowledgeable.  Great guy.

[Wayfinder]

@jd1923 to correct that display issue Ryan had me simply take the display panel out and unplug the phone jack looking cable. That resets the display. It happens to mine about once a year. More to come. Thanks. 

Edited June 30 by Wayfinder