Jump to content

Interesting electrical problem


Overland

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, mjrendon said:

Having something rattling around in the battery is not good.  Are you going to or have you pressed them for more information on the root cause?  It would be good to know if there was an issue during manufacturing or if they felt like they needed to make mechanical changes based on your setup.

I agree. I assume that I’ll be having a conversation shortly with one of their tech guys concerning this new problem and I’ll press them about these others then. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Overland said:

Mossey is right, you can only get the individual battery info on the Victron app by using all Victron gear. But believe that the LifeBlue app is supposed to do the same for their batteries. 

With the LifeBlue app, you can monitor/connect to each battery individually but not both together.  I think the LifeBlue app is very basic and has tons of room for improvement.  I wonder how far out in the future before we see a real, functional "BMS" (configurable by the end user) and application (one that allows you to configure the BMS, collects data for trending, actually can monitor a bank of batteries rather than one...

We, the owners, are the BMS - at least I feel that way reaching under my seat every day or into the overhead bin to turn off the inverter or solar charger that's trying to keep my Lithiums topped off when they aren't supposed to be.  For the $$$$$ we paid for the lithiums, I'm happy with the Ah but they are still a LOT of manual work.

States Visited Map

2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NCeagle said:

or solar charger that's trying to keep my Lithiums topped off when they aren't supposed to be.

Other than when temps are too low, are there times when the Li batteries should not be topped off?  Does the LifeBlue BMS have low temp cut-offs for charge and discharge?

Edited by mjrendon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mjrendon said:

Other than when temps are too low, are there times when the Li batteries should not be topped off?  Does the LifeBlue BMS have low temp cut-offs for charge and discharge?

Hi mjrendon,

Probably just old habits that die hard, but I haven't been topping off the Lithiums except for camping and while camping.  When the trailer is in short term storage I want to keep the batteries between 80% and 50%.  Don't ask me why - I just read a bunch of stuff on the internet and came up with that as a best practice for Lithiums in general (depth of discharge research), so I figured it's worth a try until I learn different.  For long term storage, you only want 50% according to the specification sheet, but I am keeping mine in short term mode ready to go whenever we get a chance.   It would be easier if the inverter/charger disconnect was easily accessible like the solar disconnect is, but no matter what your strategy, as it stands today you will be checking the status of your batteries all the time rather than them telling you how they are (at least these LifeBlue's).  🙂

The BMS does stop the charging from all sources when the batteries are at 100% (or so).  It also has a low temp cutoff for charge (thus the heating pads are provided right now just in case) and I imagine discharge but I'm not positive about discharge.

States Visited Map

2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, mossemi said:

Is that picture you posted of your equipment or is it a stock photo from the internet?  
SNIP

I do not believe that the Battle Born batteries provide individual cell voltage readings through the VictronConnect app.  At least I have never seen BB cell voltages in the VictronConnect app.

I had two Victron batteries for a very short while, but I ordered the wrong model and had to ship them back🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

That screen shot was from one of those. I ordered replacement Battle Borns and will be really upset if the Victron BMV-712 Smart will not connect to each individual battery as indicated on Battle Born’s webpage. 

My transition to lithium technology  has been a pretty rotten experience so far.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but their batteries don't have any connection to the outside world other than a voltage reading.  You can get a midpoint voltage reading off the BMV but that'll be the best you can do.  

One of the problems with LFPs right now is that no one seems to offer a package that has everything, regardless how much you pay.  Battleborn has great protection circuitry, a heated option, warranty, and the fewest limits on what you can do with them (turn them sideways, charge in colder temps, etc.).  But they're big and pretty much a black box as far as knowing what's going on inside.  Victron has the best connectivity and data, the best service, are compact, probably bulletproof, but they're more expensive, don't have as good a warranty, can't be changed beneath 40°, and lack anything but the most basic protection.  LifeBlue seems to have most all the features, but with questionable service and iffy quality.  Other brands are similar, some look promising but can't be bought retail, etc.  So, pick your poison. 

After this problem, I was giving some thought to swapping out with Victrons - all of this would have been obvious with their software.  But their lack of a protection circuit and a oddly high charging temp limit is a problem.  Maybe after seeing NCeagle's temperature data, and some modifications to my battery box, I'll reconsider.  But I just keep imagining that one cold night I forget and plug them in.

 

Edited by Overland
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

So JD's screenshot of the individual cell voltages of one Victron battery caused me to put my thinking cap on.  And I was wondering about midpoint battery monitoring with the Victron BMV.  Right now I am using a temperature sensor instead of monitoring the midpoint of the battery string and I was trying to figure out the best place to monitor a battery string with 3 - 12v batteries and also continue to monitor the battery temperature.  When I get my MPPT CC installed, I believe the temp sensor will communicate through the BMV with Smart Networking to the CC and optimize the battery charging.  But the questions I am now trying to find the answer to is, since I don’t see how I can monitor both temperature and midpoint voltage from the BMV, could I add an Smart Battery Sense to provide voltage and temperature to the CC and wire the midpoint monitor to the BMV?  And the second part of the question is, would this midpoint monitoring have provided an alarm or an alert to notify or prevent Jeff’s battery failure.

Mossey

Mike and Krunch   Lutz, FL  
2017 LEII #193 “the dog house”

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mossemi said:

 Right now I am using a temperature sensor instead of monitoring the midpoint of the battery string and I was trying to figure out the best place to monitor a battery string with 3 - 12v batteries and also continue to monitor the battery temperature.

Mossemi,

I might be confused as to what the midpoint voltage is, but with three 12V batteries in parallel, aren't all of the voltage readings going to be exactly the same, at least while they are connected?  That is one of the characteristics of a parallel circuit.

Which batteries are you using? I thought you had Battleborn which do not report the internal series cell voltages to the user via Bluetooth (yet).

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Overland said:

Mossey is right, you can only get the individual battery info on the Victron app by using all Victron gear. But believe that the LifeBlue app is supposed to do the same for their batteries. 

Yes, LifeBlue monitor gives info for each battery, individually

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Hi mjrendon,

Probably just old habits that die hard, but I haven't been topping off the Lithiums except for camping and while camping.  When the trailer is in short term storage I want to keep the batteries between 80% and 50%.  Don't ask me why - I just read a bunch of stuff on the internet and came up with that as a best practice for Lithiums in general (depth of discharge research), so I figured it's worth a try until I learn different.  For long term storage, you only want 50% according to the specification sheet, but I am keeping mine in short term mode ready to go whenever we get a chance.   It would be easier if the inverter/charger disconnect was easily accessible like the solar disconnect is, but no matter what your strategy, as it stands today you will be checking the status of your batteries all the time rather than them telling you how they are (at least these LifeBlue's).  🙂

The BMS does stop the charging from all sources when the batteries are at 100% (or so).  It also has a low temp cutoff for charge (thus the heating pads are provided right now just in case) and I imagine discharge but I'm not positive about discharge.

So, what is your procedure for putting the batteries into storage?  Discharge to 50%, then what?  Turn off solar charging?  Battery disconnect?  Is there a way to limit the SOC to 50% without disconnecting?  

We're new to lithium batteries in an RV; it seems there are so many variables and methods - no black and white/on and off/yes or no; 😕 

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
59 minutes ago, mjrendon said:

Mossemi,

I might be confused as to what the midpoint voltage is, but with three 12V batteries in parallel, aren't all of the voltage readings going to be exactly the same, at least while they are connected?  That is one of the characteristics of a parallel circuit.

Which batteries are you using? I thought you had Battleborn which do not report the internal series cell voltages to the user via Bluetooth (yet).

Mike

I do have 3 BB's in parallel and I knew that they didn’t support individual cell reporting, so I was looking for a solution to a single battery going bad and reporting it.  You made me grab a meter a go test my batteries.  Guess what I found, all 3 BB's read 13.09v.  The Victron site mentions midpoint readings in series connected banks, but I couldn’t find any diagrams of midpoint testing for parallel banks.  So I had to ask, because sometimes when I put my thinking cap on, I put it on backwards.☹️
Thanks for pointing out my mistake.👐👐.  Now I can move onto figuring out how to get the vaccine out faster.

 

 

Mike and Krunch   Lutz, FL  
2017 LEII #193 “the dog house”

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the solution to one or more batteries failing, that exist in a parallel bank is a proper BMS that prevents overcharge, undercharge and excessive current draw.  The Battleborn BMS should put each failing battery in protect mode so the remaining batteries can continue to be used.  Unfortunately there is no indicator to the user when this protect mode occurs (that I am aware of).  Bluetooth connectivity and/or an LED status would be an nice improvement.

Mike

 

Edited by mjrendon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Ray and Susan Huff said:

So, what is your procedure for putting the batteries into storage?  Discharge to 50%, then what?  Turn off solar charging?  Battery disconnect?  Is there a way to limit the SOC to 50% without disconnecting?  

We're new to lithium batteries in an RV; it seems there are so many variables and methods - no black and white/on and off/yes or no; 😕 

Yes, get the LifeBlue batteries to 50% and then use the various disconnects to isolate the battery from any parasitic drains or charges.  There are 3 disconnects, the solar charger to the batteries, the inverter/charger to the batteries and the main battery disconnect.  Mcb also learned from LifeBlue that the batteries should be charged to 100% first to reset them, then discharge to 50% and disconnect as described.  The battery voltages should still be monitored and if they drop below 13.0 V the battery should be recharged as needed.

Edited by NCeagle
  • Thanks 1

States Visited Map

2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The  recommendations for storing batteries differ by manufacturer. 

LifeBlue 

  • Store battery in cool, dry environment.
  • Do not store or install in direct sunlight.
  • Discharge battery to 50% SoC before long term storage of more than 30 days.
  • Check battery voltage every 60 days and recharge if below 13.0 volts.

BattleBorn

  • Fully charge them and then disconnect them from everything. Removing the negative lead from the battery bank is also recommended.
  • If possible, we recommend storing them in a temperature above freezing.  
  • Storing batteries in subzero weather (-15°F or lower) has the potential to crack the ABS plastic and could lead to a greater loss in charge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Yes, get the LifeBlue batteries to 50% and then use the various disconnects to isolate the battery from any parasitic drains or charges.  There are 3 disconnects, the solar charger to the batteries, the inverter/charger to the batteries and the main battery disconnect.  Mcb also learned from LifeBlue that the batteries should be charged to 100% first to reset them, then discharge to 50% and disconnect as described.  The battery voltages should still be monitored and if they drop below 13.0 V the battery should be recharged as needed.

I know where the solar charger disconnect switch is; but the main battery disconnect? And the inverter/charger?

Will disconnecting all of these cause the LP/CO monitor to alarm?

Also, is there a chart for %SOC to voltage conversion?

There are so many questions; hard to think of them all during the walk-through.  Just the realization that it is actually "your Oliver" is overwhelming!

  • Like 1

Ray and Susan Huff

Elite II Twin "Pearl" - Hull#699; delivered December 7, 2020

2013 F350 6.7l diesel Super Duty 4x4 long bed crew cab

1UP-USA Heavy-duty bike rack

2017 Leisure Travel Van Unity Twin Bed (sold)

AZARCAIDNVNMOKORTNTXUTWAsm.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ray and Susan Huff said:

I know where the solar charger disconnect switch is; but the main battery disconnect? And the inverter/charger?

Will disconnecting all of these cause the LP/CO monitor to alarm?

Also, is there a chart for %SOC to voltage conversion?

There are so many questions; hard to think of them all during the walk-through.  Just the realization that it is actually "your Oliver" is overwhelming!

The main battery disconnect switch and disconnect to the inverter/charger are both under the access panel located under the street side bed (the panel closest to the pantry).  If you get a small flashlight and look around in there you'll see 2 disconnects.  The one on the wheel well is the main battery disconnect and the one on the backside of the battery storage box is the inverter/charger disconnect.  You can disconnect them all and have the trailer on shore power to run a small space heater, dehumidifier, etc...  all without the batteries.  But you will need the batteries for some things - like lights, the fan to the composting toilet if you have one, the fan to the furnace and anything else on that DC fuse panel under the dinette seat.

Don't worry about the %SoC to voltage conversion - the batteries will tell you both on the bluetooth app.  The various monitors in the Ollie report slightly different readings, so I trust the BMS on the batteries themselves most.

If you need some pictures of the disconnects, I'll take some and post them tomorrow - let me know.  Please tell whoever you can at OTT that you would like the electrical schematics so you are able to take care of your trailer.  We have several new owners pestering them for the electrical diagrams.  It's been challenging without them and I'm sure Jason is tired of the simple questions like "is the charge wire even connected if you have the Lithium package?". 

Edited by NCeagle

States Visited Map

2020 Elite II, Hull 688 --- 2021 Silverado 2500HD, 6.6L Duramax Diesel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2020 at 3:37 PM, Ray and Susan Huff said:

So, what is your procedure for putting the batteries into storage?  Discharge to 50%, then what?  Turn off solar charging?  Battery disconnect?  Is there a way to limit the SOC to 50% without disconnecting?  

We're new to lithium batteries in an RV; it seems there are so many variables and methods - no black and white/on and off/yes or no; 😕 

Because the LP alarm is wired directly to the battery ( Jason @ OTT ) the only way to avoid phantom drains is to disconnect the batteries at the negative terminal. When the batteries are down to 50% and this is done, they go into a “standby mode” ( Larry @ LifeBlue )..

As NCeagle mentioned, please point out the fact to your Oliver contact that the lack of electrical diagrams is a nuisance.. And while I’ve been told that the service crew doesn’t mind answering even the simplest of questions it doesn’t help much when the issue comes up on a Saturday or Sunday... 🙂

 

  • Thanks 3

Mark & Deb..2020 Elite II..Dearie..Hull #685..2016 Tundra

 

AZARCAFLMSNMOKPATNTXsm.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Yes - that location for the fuse on the propane alarm is a very good thing to know.  Somehow these alarms always seem to find a way to "ALARM" in the wee hours of the morning and trying to find that fuse at that point is difficult.

Bill

2023 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5EB FX4 Max Towing, Max Payload, 2016 Oliver Elite II - Hull #117 "Twist"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
On 12/31/2020 at 10:21 AM, John E Davies said:

I had two Victron batteries for a very short while, but I ordered the wrong model and had to ship them back🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

That screen shot was from one of those. I ordered replacement Battle Borns and will be really upset if the Victron BMV-712 Smart will not connect to each individual battery as indicated on Battle Born’s webpage. 

My transition to lithium technology  has been a pretty rotten experience so far.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

I have not seen a statement on the Battle Born website referring to the BMV-7XX having the ability to monitor individual batteries in the same string.  Although I have seen statements about the ability of the BMV-7XX to monitor a second or starter battery.  I would like to use the BMV as you reference, but I can’t find that information.  Can you share the location of that information?

Mossey

Mike and Krunch   Lutz, FL  
2017 LEII #193 “the dog house”

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mossemi said:

I have not seen a statement on the Battle Born website referring to the BMV-7XX having the ability to monitor individual batteries in the same string.  Although I have seen statements about the ability of the BMV-7XX to monitor a second or starter battery.  I would like to use the BMV as you reference, but I can’t find that information.  Can you share the location of that information?

Mossey

Maybe this was just another brain fart, I seem to be having a whole lot of them lately.

“This Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor with Bluetooth built-in pairs perfectly with our lithium batteries. You can download the free VictronConnect phone app to manage your new battery monitor directly on your phone!”

This was posted directly on the Battle Born website, so my assumption was that the text was indeed referring to BB batteries. However, I suspect this is a cut and paste description of the Victron product literature, so “our batteries” probably means “not any other batteries”.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/victron-bmv-712-battery-monitor-with-bluetooth-built-in/

Wouldn’t you read that meaning if you had not heard otherwise? If it had said “OUR Victron monitor will pair with our Victron batteries”, then that would have been not a all confusing..... The whole lithium situation is riddled with mis-information, missing information, and vague descriptions. There is really no excuse for this being so darned hard to interpret!

John Davies

Spokane WA

  • Like 1

SOLD 07/23 "Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 32” LT tires, airbags, Safari snorkel, Maggiolina Grand Tour 360 Carbon RTT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...