torque values for lug nuts

[Geronimo John]

20 hours ago, John E Davies said:

I see they are still over torqueing the lug nuts!!! I use 90 ft lbs, which is an acceptable value for a 1/2” stud and an aluminum wheel. 120 is for steel wheels. It is 25% too high for Ollie wheels.

JD:  I have looked for 90 minutes for the Dexter torques for a 6 each 1/2" lug, 5.5" spacing with Bulge Acorn nuts on an aluminum rim.  By chance can you share your source info?  Thanks.

[John E Davies]

3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

JD:  I have looked for 90 minutes for the Dexter torques for a 6 each 1/2" lug, 5.5" spacing with Bulge Acorn nuts on an aluminum rim.  By chance can you share your source info?  Thanks.

As you discovered there is no source for a Dexter recommendation for 1/2”-20 studs with alloy wheels, I have never been able to find it, nor did Oliver Service ever respond to my request for their source. Maybe you could ask 😬. If you poke around on tire sites and wheel manufacturers websites, 90-100 is the generally recommended value. The 90-120 figure is for steel. Here is one chart: … https://www.etrailer.com/question-94709.html

I have been installing wheels for all my adult life and no way would I consider 120 to be appropriate for an Ollie. I would love to be proven wrong. But I have had no issues with wheels falling off at 90. They must be rechecked after installing the wheels, but they don’t loosen after that initial change.

Just because the factory does something doesn’t mean it is acceptable. Like sending owners away with 80 psi in their LE2 tires, which is TWICE the needed amount. Or installing “*******” pattern wheel hubs on the LE2 that make it impossible for an owner to install a standard 10” disk brake kit 😤😤😤.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Corvus]

Searched for torque values based on the assumption the rims are LionsHead brand and found a couple of responses on eTrailer that suggest the torque values Oliver uses may be the rim manufacturers recommendation. I suspect my rims are LionsHead, but I haven't confirmed that with Oliver.

https://www.etrailer.com/question-558830.html

https://www.etrailer.com/question-471670.html

[Hokieman]

7 hours ago, Corvus said:

Searched for torque values based on the assumption the rims are LionsHead brand

The wheels on my 2021 are Sumec brand.  See pic of sticker that was on my spare.   I could not find any info on the web about the recommended torque for these wheels.  Let us know if Oliver responds with OEM info.  

[Hokieman]

10 hours ago, John E Davies said:

As you discovered there is no source for a Dexter recommendation for 1/2”-20 studs with alloy wheels, I have never been able to find it, nor did Oliver Service ever respond to my request for their source.

I looked online for the Dexter info also, and could not find it.   I did find a torque table for the wheel studs in a Dexter Operations & Maintenance Service  Manual.   Note for 1/2” x 20 studs the Maximum torque is 120 ft-lbs.   This table supports  JDs assumption that Oliver’s recommendations of 120 ft-lbs is too high.   I’ve always thought 120 seemed too high, and have been using 100 ft-lbs.  I have not had a lug nut loosen yet,  I do check them before or after every trip.   Unless new info comes to light,  I think I will go to 90, which is 25% below the max value. 

[Geronimo John]

I have sent Dexter, E-trailer and SenDel RFI's for all of us.  E-trailer's first response was to quote the OTT Owner's Manual = 120 ft-lbs.  I pushed back for THEIR opinion.  We'll see

Here is the Sendel Web Site:     https://recstuff.com/trailer-wheels?_bc_fsnf=1&Style=S20&Color%5B%5D=Silver+Aluminum&Color%5B%5D=Silver+Machined+Aluminum&Size=16%2

Here is the SenDel rim some of us are using:

The SenDel product I believe we have is their S20 66655T.

 

               S20        =             Style of the rim 

               6             =             16” diameter

               6             =             6” wide

               6             =             Number of lug bolts

               55          =             5.5” bolt pattern

               T             =             Aluminum

They are listed on their web site for $189

 

[Geronimo John]

Got a response back from SenDel.    It is below.  

Personally, I'm going to go with 90 ft-lb of torque.  Looks like JD was spot on!

GJ

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Vanessa Allar <vanessa@recstuff.com>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 9:02 AM
To: John P. Russell, Jr. <jprredhorse@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Offline Message from John Russell: I am asking on behalf of several Oliver Tr

We recommend between 90-110 ft-lb torque when mounting these wheels, you are right, 120 is a little too high.

 You gave me a good laugh with that message, thank you. I hope you have an excellent weekend! 

 Vanessa Allar

Customer Service Team Member

www.RecStuff.com    (321) 872-8473

 

[John E Davies]

3 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Got a response back from SenDel.    It is below.  

Personally, I'm going to go with 90 ft-lb of torque.  Looks like JD was spot on!

GJ

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Vanessa Allar <vanessa@recstuff.com>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 9:02 AM
To: John P. Russell, Jr. <jprredhorse@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Offline Message from John Russell: I am asking on behalf of several Oliver Tr

We recommend between 90-110 ft-lb torque when mounting these wheels, you are right, 120 is a little too high.

It is nice to be vindicated, thank you. I have been complaining about this here on the forum for six years. Can you please forward this email to Jason with a Service Ticket? They need to stop over-torquing the studs, one day a wheel will come off. There needs to be a recall or at least a Technical Bulletin.

If an owner has a cheap or malfunctioning torque wrench, it would be very easy to go WAY over 120. If you use 90, then you have a large amount of built in leeway (safety margin) for an inaccurate tool, or even user error.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Geronimo John]

11 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Can you please forward this email to Jason with a Service Ticket?

This is not the first time our foot prints have been on their door step.  Recall the 80 PSI tire pressure?  I think sending them the Michelin recommended Tire Pressure Guide for our trailers did the trick.    

This time they now have their MFG recommendation that runs counter to their Owner's Rep

I sent it to Jason moments after I posted it here.  I also asked him to bump it up to Engineering and QC.  

GJ 

 

[rideandfly]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:48 AM, Corvus said:

Searched for torque values based on the assumption the rims are LionsHead brand and found a couple of responses on eTrailer that suggest the torque values Oliver uses may be the rim manufacturers recommendation. I suspect my rims are LionsHead, but I haven't confirmed that with Oliver.

https://www.etrailer.com/question-558830.html

https://www.etrailer.com/question-471670.html

Here's the wheel on late model Ollies:

https://www.lionsheadtireandwheel.com/Jaguar-Aluminum-Wheel

Been tightening the original aluminum ION wheel lug nuts on our 2015 LE2 to 95FTLBs and double checking initially after a few hundred miles, no issues after many thousand miles on Ollie. Using 50 PSI for tire inflation pressure.

[Trainman]

I don't think I've ever torqued a wheel on any vehicle that I've owned. Yes, I do own a torque wrench, but I've just get the wheel good and tight and then one more bump for good safety. I do use my torque wrench for torqueing nuts that are of smaller size and ones that I could be twisted off with too much pressure. I feel I have the mechanical knowledge and know when something is tight, it's that feeling you have when all is right, I know many don't have it, so you best use a torque wrench. 

trainman

[John E Davies]

3 hours ago, Trainman said:

I don't think I've ever torqued a wheel on any vehicle that I've owned. Yes, I do own a torque wrench, but I've just get the wheel good and tight and then one more bump for good safety.

When I trained as an A&P tech, the instructor in the How To Use Tools class demonstrated the need to always use a torque wrench. He had a big plate with a bunch of different sized bolts threaded into it. There was a chart with the recommended torque value. He had each of us tighten them by hand with a breaker bar to what we "thought" was the right amount, followed up by a torque wrench. 75% of the guys failed miserably, a couple were pretty close. NONE out of the 20 guys got them all exactly right. 

All torque wrenches "should" be calibrated, especially after a hard drop onto concrete. Hardly any are. When we torqued a truly critical fastener like a wing attach bolt, we checked the wrench for accuracy directly before using it. And then a second tech would check your work. If you got caught repeatedly hand tightening, you got fired.... Where I am getting is, if there is a good amount of safety margin, no worries, you can get away with sloppy techniques. If the Oliver recommended value is also the published Dexter maximum for the stud, you are asking for a failure and a possible fatality accident. if one stud snaps, it also over-stresses all the others. imagine your 75 pound wheel and tire bouncing across the median at 60 mph into oncoming traffic, while your brake drum throws sparks on the road surface then shatters.

https://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/2020/06/10/woman-airlifted-to-umass-memorial-in-worcester-after-tire-struck-suv-she-was-driving/

https://www.wikihow.com/Calibrate-a-Torque-Wrench

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Hokieman]

3 hours ago, rideandfly said:

Here's the wheel on late model Ollies:

Good to know!   I notice the picture of the wheel on that link shows a Sumec sticker on it just like the one I found on my 2021 spare. 

 

 

[mjotto]

Greetings.

As a retired mechanical engineer who worked a bit with fasteners (although not wheel studs and lug nuts) I thought I’d offer a few points for the group to mull over.

Twisting the lug nut onto the wheel stud induces a a clamping force to keep the wheel on the hub.  That clamping force is controlled in part by the torque applied to the nut.  But that clamping force is also affected by thread geometry, stud diameter, nut contact area and friction on the threads and the nut to wheel contact surface.  Think of the difference between torquing rusty, corroded threads versus fresh, lubricated threads.

The torque level should be specified as a min/max range about an optimum sweet spot for the design, not just a single value.  Too little clamping force a.k.a. torque and the nuts can work loose, fretting and wear can occur, and/or the studs could be subject to metal fatigue - none of which are good as you all can imagine. 

Too much torque could cause the stud stress to reach or exceed the plastic limit proof load of the fastener. That’s why, Dexter stated a 120 ft-lb limit for the 1/2” high strength grade 8 stud as shown by Mike D.  JD described what generally happens when folks inadvertently over torque fasteners.

Excessive clamp load or torque might also distort/damage the wheel but I’m not aware of how this could result in catastrophic failure which is what I think was the concern with the 120 ft-lb specification.

Moral of the story:  

1.  Purchase and use a good quality torque wrench.  Human “feelings” are not a good, well calibrated substitute.  And use the recommended torquing sequence!

2.  If the lug nut is torqued to or somewhat beyond the maximum limit and the stud hasn’t twisted off, the wheel isn’t going anywhere.

3.  Under torqued lug nuts can be a problem.  JD discussed torque wrench calibration and the issues for the high side of torque.  But a similar issue exists for an inaccurate torque wrench or “human feel” for the low end of the torque range.

4.  The proper torque range is specified in SAE or ISO fastener standards for the hub and wheel configuration.  (Sorry, don’t have that info available.  And BTW, Oliver, Dexter or the wheel supplier need to provide the torque range for the fastener condition.)

If this thread is concerned about the effects of excessive torque on the wheel, maybe we could better detail what we think those concerns are and then reach out to Oliver or the wheel supplier for more specific information.

[Hokieman]

14 hours ago, John E Davies said:

They need to stop over-torquing the studs, one day a wheel will come off. There needs to be a recall or at least a Technical Bulletin.

If an owner has a cheap or malfunctioning torque wrench, it would be very easy to go WAY over 120. If you use 90, then you have a large amount of built in leeway (safety margin) for an inaccurate tool, or even user error.

Hah!  It looks like at least 3 engineers and an A&P Tech are flogging this issue.   Perhaps that’s because we are ana…uh I mean diligent.   Seriously, I think we are all in agreement on the issues.   I agree with John Davies suggestion about Technical Bulletin, and I plan to write up a Service  Ticket.   For those that didn’t know,  there is  a similar and equally informative topic John Davies  started in 2017.

http://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/wheels-model-warranty-care/http://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/wheels-model-warranty-care/

In that post Vector described a near catastrophic crash due to the loss of both wheels on one side while traveling at interstate speeds.   I’m not sure if a root cause was ever found, but that original post alerted me to be very diligent about checking my torque values, tire pressures, tire & wheel bearing temps.   Thanks JD.  
 

There a few key things I think this proposed Tech Bulletin could cover:

- Correct lug nut torque values and tire pressures

- Proper use and calibration of a torque wrench, including it’s limitations as an imperfect tool for measuring wheel nut  clamping force.
- Wheel  studs & nuts should be dry and clean,  free of lubricants or  contaminants.   Even if an owner has an accurate torque wrench, and knows how to use it, tightening lubricated nuts to 120 ft-lbs can approach or exceed the tensile strength of the studs, possibly causing a fracture.
 - Recommend that owners personally check & adjust lug nut torque after work done by tire shops who use impact wrenches secure wheel nuts.

This could be a valuable tech talk at the Rally.   Comments appreciated,  I’ll be creating a ticket to make these suggestions.

[Geronimo John]

16 hours ago, John E Davies said:

Can you please forward this email to Jason with a Service Ticket?

This is not the first time our foot prints have been on their door step.  Recall the 80 PSI tire pressure?  I think sending them the Michelin recommended Tire Pressure Guide for our trailers did the trick.    

This time they now have their MFG recommendation that runs counter to their Owner's Rep

I sent it to Jason moments after I posted it here.  I also asked him to bump it up to Engineering and QC.  

GJ 

 

[Geronimo John]

An update from Jason.  Apparently in 2016, OTT was instructed by the rim mfg to increase the torque from 90 to 120 ft-lbs.  He is going to check back with the MFG on this.  More to follow.......

GJ

[Frank C]

Thanks to all for the investigative work on this!  I’ll be adjusting my lug nut torque check accordingly.   

[SeaDawg]

On another note, has Oliver changed wheel suppliers along the way? Which vins, which wheels?

[bhncb]

1 minute ago, SeaDawg said:

On another note, has Oliver changed wheel suppliers along the way? Which vins, which wheels?

This is unverified and open for corrections:

In order of production model years: Icon (2014-2016), HiSpec (2017-2018), Sendel (and/or) Tredit (2019), Lionshead (and/or) Sumec (2020-2023).

Maybe OTT could provide validation and resolve by production VIN.

[Geronimo John]

On 4/29/2022 at 7:00 PM, Geronimo John said:

  On 4/29/2022 at 6:37 PM, John E Davies said:

Can you please forward this email to Jason with a Service Ticket?

I sent the info to Service last Spring.  Was traveling this summer and did not see any response.  So this morning I initiated a Service Ticket in their system.  

GJ

[Geronimo John]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:21 PM, bhncb said:

 

In order of production model years: Icon (2014-2016), HiSpec (2017-2018), Sendel (and/or) Tredit (2019), Lionshead (and/or) Sumec (2020-2023).

Good Info.  My 2018 OE2 has the SUMEC decal.  Is this the same as HiSpec?

Thanks

GJ

[bhncb]

58 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

Good Info.  My 2018 OE2 has the SUMEC decal.  Is this the same as HiSpec?

Thanks

GJ

Interesting. I didn't think the Sumec name had hit the shores yet in 2018. Different companies but the wheels could very well come out of the same plant in China. HiSpec just says plants in Indiana and Asia. Sumec is based in China and open about it.

[Geronimo John]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:32 AM, John E Davies said:

All torque wrenches "should" be calibrated, especially after a hard drop onto concrete. Hardly any are. When we torqued a truly critical fastener like a wing attach bolt, we checked the wrench for accuracy directly before using it. And then a second tech would check your work. If you got caught repeatedly hand tightening, you got fired.... Where I am getting is, if there is a good amount of safety margin, no worries, you can get away with sloppy techniques. If the Oliver recommended value is also the published Dexter maximum for the stud, you are asking for a failure and a possible fatality accident.

Amen.   Last week I again made these very points with Jason in my Service Ticket on OEII Lug torque values and sent him several manufacturers torque specifications for aluminum wheels.  After consideration, he replied that my Service Ticket has been sent to upper management.

One thing we should be aware of is that some aluminum rims have steel inserts in the lug holes.  They can have a different torque specification.  Personally I do not like them due to the inevitable galvanic corrosion between the AL and Steel.

[bugeyedriver]

Whatever torque you chose for your aluminum rims, be sure to re-torque them after 50 miles or so, to make sure a lug has not become loose.