Surge Protector

[Mike and Carol]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:31 AM, mossemi said:

I like to test the power pole prior to spotting the Ollie and if I’m not blocking traffic I won’t even back in until I have verified the power pole is in working order.

Mossey

Good practice.  I’ve had bad 30a connections but when I checked the 50a it was fine so I just used it.  We had a 30a go bad after a few days at Table Rock Lake near Branson and I was able to use the 50a until they got it fixed (it was hot and we needed the AC).  Mike

Edited August 18 by Mike and Carol

[John Dorrer]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:03 PM, Geronimo John said:

Amazon has scores of surge protectors to choose from.  And as apparent from the above posts, each owner has their concerns in mind for their use.  So, for a pedestal power pole used as a supplemental protection, my concern is spikes and RF noise.  Not sustained voltages beyond standard as MountainOliver sadly experienced.

For the purpose of voltage noise and spikes, having a plug-in type with lots of joules capacity is the goal.  Keeping it light, simple and inexpensive is the idea from my minimalist perspective.  If those are your goals, then this one seems to fit bill and costs a LOT less than most others at the 8,000+ joules rating:

 

That surge protector will not protect you. You get what you pay for. If you want the proper protection,then you need a good EMS portable surge protector, such as the the Hughes Watchdog 30 amp EPO that will shut off power to the Oliver if there is an issue. South Wire Surge Guard 30 amp, or Progressive 30 amp, all EMS protectors, that cost $325+/-.

 

I suggest you see what the guru of RV Electronics, Mike Sokol says about portable surge protectors. Link to a Mike Sokol article on surge protectors is in one of my earlier comments. He would tell you not to waste your money on the cheap ones 

 

You of course should do what you want

 Just saying.

Edited August 16 by John Dorrer
Typo

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, Mike and Carol said:

Good practice.  I’ve had bad 30a connections but when I checked the 50a it was fine so I just used it.  We had a 30a go bad after a few days at Table Rock Lake near Branson and I was able to use the 50a until they got it fixed 9 (it was hot and we needed the AC).  Mike

So Mike, you must have a 4-prong 50A to 3-prong 30A adapter? That's a good idea. I have the 30A to 15A version. Here are examples of both kinds --

Amazon.com: RVGUARD 50 Amp to 30 Amp RV Adapter Cord 12 Inch, NEMA 14-50P to NEMA TT-30R, Dogbone Electrical Converter with LED Power Indicator and Disconnect Handle, Green, ETL Listed : Automotive

Amazon.com: RVGUARD 30 Amp to 110 Volt RV Adapter Cord 12 Inch, NEMA 5-15P to NEMA TT-30R Electrical Power Adapter with LED Power Indicator, Green, ETL Listed : Automotive

[SNY SD UP]

I am not an electrician or an engineer, so I sometimes struggle with all this electrical talk.  But that does not stop me from trying to understand all that I read...

If I understand this thread, we are discussing two different scenarios;
#1) CLEAN POWER at the POST, vs.
#2) Handling power significant spikes/drops or power cycles (brown-outs?) enough to do damage to our trailers.  Both can occur after the initial 'CLEAN POWER' test.

For #1, I too have a 30a to 15a adapter, with a W.A. Sperry tester (like @mountainoliver) plugged into the 15a side. 
I always plug that into the post before connecting my OTT shore line.   Most of the time I get the 'circuit OK' and I continue.  If not OK, I try to resolve with the CG staff.
Like @Mike and Carol I also have a 4-prong 50A to 3-prong 30A adapter, and have used it when 30a was dirty & 50a was clean.

For #2, I do not have anything as of yet... But have been giving it more & more thought.  This is why;
During our last camping season, we were at a CG that had a fueled 'CG' wide large generator that was, to put it in crude but understandable terms... undulating. 
Maggie & I were walking around and when I heard that, I hurried to our trailer heard clicks in the walls and saw lights on/off on Xantrex, I then disconnected our shore power. 

Later when I talked to the CG staff, they said the generator had governor (i.e. undulating) issues, another said the demand exceeded the output, so it would idle down for a moment.  IDK enough to know what it was, however I do know enough that I did not like the clicking & lights show in or trailer..

So I am wondering if I need to look at getting something that handles #2 OR if #2 can be further split between
    (2a) power spikes/drops and
    (2b) power cycles (brown-out?).
Still trying to understand all that I have read above...

So keep the dialog coming, and I will re-read & watch video's.
 

B~Out

Edited August 17 by SNY SD UP

[Ronbrink]

On 8/15/2024 at 6:48 AM, CRM said:

The Hughes Watchdog EPO is a great unit. One thing to consider if you're also using a Hughes Autoformer is that the EPO unit should be installed downstream of the Autoformer. If not, when voltage drops to 104 volts the EPO will cut off power completely and and the Autoformer won't be able to do it's job of boosting voltage 10% and keeping it at a safe level.  Ask me how I know!😄

Do you have an opinion on which may be better, keeping in mind that I already have the Hughes Autoformer. A surge protector with a high joules rating, as @Geronimo John advocates, staged at the power pole; one with an automatic shutdown feature, as @John Dorrer recommends; or some other that will pair well with the HA? My biggest concern is harm to the Oliver from a lightening strike or excessive voltage, and whether the EMS has shutdown capability under said conditions. 

[Patriot]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:19 AM, HDRider said:

I am a belt and suspenders guy so I think I will get one.  No special hurry but I would value knowing what brand you have.   I am looking at this one.

 

https://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-pt30x

 

 

I have it and it serves us well. There are lots of choices and I think that having protection at the pole is better than nothing. A link that helped with my decision to go with Progressive. https://www.progressiveindustries.net/portable-hardwired-comparisons

 

 

Edited August 20 by Patriot
Added link

[CRM]

4 hours ago, Ronbrink said:

Do you have an opinion on which may be better, keeping in mind that I already have the Hughes Autoformer. A surge protector with a high joules rating, as @Geronimo John advocates, staged at the power pole; one with an automatic shutdown feature, as @John Dorrer recommends; or some other that will pair well with the HA? My biggest concern is harm to the Oliver from a lightening strike or excessive voltage, and whether the EMS has shutdown capability under said conditions. 

Personally, I would definitely put a high quality surge protector at the power pole to check for power, correct wiring, and to take any surge hits first instead of the Autoformer's surge module taking them. You could then put the Hughes Watchdog EPO that @John Dorrer recommends after the Autoformer for another layer of protection if desired. I don't think I would bother with that though if you already have the factory Progressive EMS installed, which is something mine did not come with.

[Ronbrink]

18 hours ago, CRM said:

Personally, I would definitely put a high quality surge protector at the power pole to check for power, correct wiring, and to take any surge hits first instead of the Autoformer's surge module taking them. You could then put the Hughes Watchdog EPO that @John Dorrer recommends after the Autoformer for another layer of protection if desired. I don't think I would bother with that though if you already have the factory Progressive EMS installed, which is something mine did not come with.

I’m thinking a 30A surge protector with a circuit analyzer, high joules rating of 10,000+, and no auto shutdown feature at the power pole is the best option to satisfy my stated concerns; basically a sacrificial device for less than 100$. I trust the PI EMS’s over/under voltage protection feature and thus, no need for redundancy with a HW EPO. Thanks for your insight on this matter!

[John Dorrer]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:20 AM, Ronbrink said:

Do you have an opinion on which may be better, keeping in mind that I already have the Hughes Autoformer. A surge protector with a high joules rating, as @Geronimo John advocates, staged at the power pole; one with an automatic shutdown feature, as @John Dorrer recommends; or some other that will pair well with the HA? My biggest concern is harm to the Oliver from a lightening strike or excessive voltage, and whether the EMS has shutdown capability under said conditions. 

My recommendation would be an portable EMS like the Hughes Watchdog 30amp with EPO (used by many Oliver owners, or the South Wire Surge Guard. If surges by lightening, or high low you want an EMS that will shut down at the post before the damage reaches the hard wired EMS in the trailer. Cheaper to replace the post surge protector

If the EMS shuts down it should have zero effect on any electronics in the trailer.

 

If you haven't read the Mike Sokol post, see my link in an earlier comment.

 

Stay away from the cheap ones. They won't do the job.

 

 

Edited August 19 by mossemi
Removed a typo which resulted in a bad word

[CRM]

8 minutes ago, John Dorrer said:

If the EMS shits down it should have zero effect on any electronics in the trailer.

 

 

Except in his trailer it will have an effect since he's running a Hughes Autoformer inside.

[Ronbrink]

36 minutes ago, John Dorrer said:

If surges by lightening, or high low you want an EMS that will shut down at the post before the damage reaches the hard wired EMS in the trailer.

Understood, but having a ‘low’ voltage shutdown at the post would negate the benefit of the HA voltage booster, which also has surge/spike protection. In an excessive high energy event like a nearby lightening strike, a 10,000+ joule surge protector at the post will further the life of MOVs in both the HA booster and PI EMS. 

Edited August 18 by Ronbrink

[Mike and Carol]

On 8/16/2024 at 2:45 PM, jd1923 said:

So Mike, you must have a 4-prong 50A to 3-prong 30A adapter? That's a good idea.

Yes, I’ve got adapters for both 50a and 15a.  Hull 135 doesn’t have an on board surge protector so I’ve always used one at the power pole.  I’m using a Progressive like @Patriot posted above.  Mike

[John Dorrer]

42 minutes ago, Ronbrink said:

Understood, but having a ‘low’ voltage shutdown at the post would negate the benefit of the HA voltage booster, which also has surge/spike protection. In an excessive high energy event like a nearby lightening strike, a 10,000+ joule surge protector at the post will further the life of MOVs in both the HA booster and PI EMS. 

That's over my head. If you are on Facebook, join Mike Sokol's Facebook, where you can get good answers to any questions or concerns.

RVelectricity by Mike Sokol

 

Based on his posts and articles he highly recommends  the EMS portable surge protector in conjunction with the wired EMS in the Oliver.  The EMS is also supposed to protect against lightening strikes.  

 

He would be the one to say your concerns are unwarranted, but that is for him to say.

[jd1923]

3 hours ago, Mike and Carol said:

Hull 135 doesn’t have an on board surge protector so I’ve always used one at the power pole.

It was certainly after 2016 when OTT made the PD EMS-HW30C standard equipment. You may remember I added one end of last year. You just need to cut the 10/3 cable from the PD5100 ATS to the breaker panel and install in line.

 

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, jd1923 said:

It was certainly after 2016 when OTT made the PD EMS-HW30C standard equipment. You may remember I added one end of last year. You just need to cut the 10/3 cable from the PD5100 ATS to the breaker panel and install in line.

 

It’s on the upgrade list.  Right now it’s resting just behind the new air conditioner!  Mike

[CRM]

6 hours ago, John Dorrer said:

That's over my head. If you are on Facebook, join Mike Sokol's Facebook, where you can get good answers to any questions or concerns.

RVelectricity by Mike Sokol

Mike has lots of great info and advice on RV electric, but he's WAY off when it comes to the Hughes Autoformer. Been waiting for his "Part 4" testing results for a while but now he says he bound by an NDA by the NEC and can't reveal them. I'm glad I took the advice of Hughes electrical engineers (which Mike is not. BTW), as well as from a friend of mine who is also an electrical engineer before waiting for his final results.

Edited August 18 by CRM

[John Dorrer]

2 hours ago, CRM said:

Mike has lots of great info and advice on RV electric, but he's WAY off when it comes to the Hughes Autoformer. Been waiting for his "Part 4" testing results for a while but now he says he bound by an NDA by the NEC and can't reveal them. I'm glad I took the advice of Hughes electrical engineers (which Mike is not. BTW), as well as from a friend of mine who is also an electrical engineer before waiting for his final results.

I was reading  his Autoformer articles also.

[John Dorrer]

9 hours ago, CRM said:

Except in his trailer it will have an effect since he's running a Hughes Autoformer inside.

Yep

[John Dorrer]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:20 AM, Ronbrink said:

Do you have an opinion on which may be better, keeping in mind that I already have the Hughes Autoformer. A surge protector with a high joules rating, as @Geronimo John advocates, staged at the power pole; one with an automatic shutdown feature, as @John Dorrer recommends; or some other that will pair well with the HA? My biggest concern is harm to the Oliver from a lightening strike or excessive voltage, and whether the EMS has shutdown capability under said conditions. 

According to what I believe Mike Sokol stated in a couple of his articles, the answer would be yes.

[John Dorrer]

Here is another article on surge protectors from Mike Sokol. He stated using a cheaper surge protector at the post as a sacrificial lamb to protect the wire EMS is OK. 

 

In a previous article he recommended using another EMS like the Hughes Watchdog 30amp with EPO that will shut power down at the post. 

 

Each owner decides, no post surge protector, a cheap surge protector at the post, or another EMS top of the line surge protector with EPO.

 

https://open.substack.com/pub/rvelectricity/p/are-double-surge-protectors-a-good?r=nq2l8&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

 

Edited August 23 by John Dorrer
Typo

[CRM]

8 hours ago, John Dorrer said:

Here is another article on surge protectors from Mike Sokol. He stated using a cheaper surge protector at the post as a sacrificial lamb to protect the wire EMS is OK. 

 

In a previous article he recommended using another EMS like the Hughes Watchdog 30amp with EPO that will shut power down at the post. 

 

Each owner decides, no post surge protector, a cheap surge protector at the post, or another EMS top of the line surge protector with EPO.

 

https://open.substack.com/pub/rvelectricity/p/are-double-surge-protectors-a-good?r=nq2l8&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

 

One issue with installing an EMS/EPO at the pedestal is that you're not picking up the voltage drop between the pedestal and the equipment/appliances in your TT. Might not be an issue, but also might be...  I like a sacrificial surge protector at the pedestal and then an autoformer, and then an EMS/EPO unit before the breaker box. Maybe overkill, but I like overkill when it comes to electricity. 

Edited August 24 by CRM

[Ronbrink]

4 hours ago, John Dorrer said:

He stated using a cheaper surge protector at the post as a sacrificial lamb to protect the wire EMS is OK. 

Thanks, he therein further confirms my thought on the matter. My recently acquired 12,000 joules ‘sacrificial lamb’ with circuit analyzer for less than 50$ before tax. 

[John Dorrer]

On 8/23/2024 at 4:44 PM, CRM said:

One issue with installing an EMS/EPO at the pedestal is that you're not picking up the voltage drop between the pedestal and the equipment/appliances in your TT. Might not be an issue, but also might be...  I like a sacrificial surge protector at the pedestal and then an autoformer, and then an EMS/EPO unit before the breaker box. Maybe overkill, but I like overkill when it comes to electricity. 

The Hughes Watchdog EMS/EPO will shut down with low or high, so according Mike Sokol nothing should get past the wired EMS to the appliances to cause damage. Most of this stuff is way above my knowledge base. 

[CRM]

1 minute ago, John Dorrer said:

The Hughes Watchdog EMS/EPO will shut down with low or high, so according Mike Sokol nothing should get past the wired EMS to the appliances to cause damage. Most of this stuff is way above my knowledge base. 

That's why (IMHO) it's best to install the EPO/EMS right before your breaker box. If not, you can have a wiring issue between the pedestal and the breakers causing a voltage drop that won't be seen by the EPO if installed at the pedestal.