AGM Battery Mount Problem

[rideandfly]

5 hours ago, Maverick said:

Bill:

Our original battery tray looked the same as your's with the rivets head on the outside.  In 2017 we had to replace the battery tray due to all the slide bearings came out plus other damage to the slides themselves.  The replacement tray came from Oliver and looks just like the picture in JD's reply; with the rivet heads on the inside where the batteries are located.  Our 2015 Elite II we opted for the four Trojan T105 wet cells, I keep a monthly check on the batteries and they are doing great, hopefully a couple more years of use from them before replacement.

Maverick,

 Rivets are starting to loosen where the battery was impacting, found that issue today after removing the tray from Ollie. That could cause premature failure where bearing slides connect to the tray, too. Need to drill out rivets, then reverse and replace them. Already have various rivets, manual & electric rivet pullers.

The battery strap hook can be replaced with a longer strap getting rid of the hook that can possibly  damage the battery. 

Lightweight Lithium batteries sure would reduce stress on the battery tray.

Edited December 17, 2020 by rideandfly

[Maverick]

Bill:  When I replaced the battery tray, I added a device to prevent the tray from moving at all.  It only takes a few minutes to  remove when servicing the batteries.  You might want to do something like this while you have the tray removed.

[mjrendon]

Great implementation on this improvement.  Did you drill the rail out before you placed new tray in the trailer or use a block of wood to prevent hitting the battery compartment wall?

[Maverick]

8 minutes ago, mjrendon said:

Great implementation on this improvement.  Did you drill the rail out before you placed new tray in the trailer or use a block of wood to prevent hitting the battery compartment wall?

The drilling was doing before installing the tray; but it could be drilled while still installed.  Like you said just use a block of wood to prevent any damage during drilling.

[rideandfly]

5 hours ago, Maverick said:

Bill:  When I replaced the battery tray, I added a device to prevent the tray from moving at all.  It only takes a few minutes to  remove when servicing the batteries.  You might want to do something like this while you have the tray removed.

Maverick,

Nice, strong, and simple fix!

Thanks,

[John E Davies]

You can do the same thing by skipping Maverick’s angle pieces, just drill 1/4” holes in the end of the slides, insert bolt and self locking nut in each. Or just one bolt is enough. It is mainly to prevent the rack of batteries from smashing into the door if the latch fails. Which has happened to some here....

But it appears the newer trays have dual latches.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by John E Davies

[Geronimo John]

Ride and Fly:  As our Ollie is often on mountain fire roads, I have had my concerns about the latch as well.  Good idea.  Do you bolt both sides, or just one?

OWNERS: 

I am going to use "Blind Flange Nuts" (BFN) on mine so that I am not fishing for the washers and nuts behind the frame.  

For those not familiar with BFN's, below is how they work:

A.  With the battery slide tray locked with the Oliver slide lock, dill a bolt diameter size hole through the  battery slide tray and the stationary frame of the unit.  This will assure that you have them properly aligned so that the Oliver slide lock and your supplemental bolt lock work together for bolt insertion and travel.    

B.  Remove the battery tray and drill a slightly oversize hole into the frame to accommodate the BFN.  Your hole should ensure that the splines of the BFN "dig in" to the frame material.  This gives a tight fit and aids crushing.

C.  Insert the BFN into the larger hole.  I

D.  There are two ways to "crush" the BFN onto the stationary frame: 

     Use a BFN Crush Tool.  I use this when at home.

      Make your own BFN Crush Tool.  I do this when "on the road" as I don't need to carry around the Crush Tool. 

• Start by getting a longer grade 8 bolt (with all threads) and grade 8 nut that have the same threads as the BFN.  You'll also need some washers and lubricant.  Finally you'll need  wrenches. 
• Put the nut on the bolt and then your lubricated washers.  Insert the bolt/nut/washers though the frame and through the BFN. 
• With one wrench, hold the bolt steady.  Then tighten the nut against the  washers.  This will pull the BFN  bottom (BNF threaded section) towards the frame.  In doing so, the center section of the BFN will be crushed forming a second "flange" on the back side of the frame that keeps it in place.
• Remove the bolt from the BFN.

E.  Reinstall the tray, lock it, and insert a bolt and lock washer to fix the tray in place.  

On final thought:  It would be handy if you  procure BFN's and bolts that use the same wrench size as the terminal bolts.  Would save having more tools laying around hot terminals than absolutely necessary.  ZAP!  FLASH1 OUCH!  

Geronimo John

[mjrendon]

I have not used these before but find them interesting.  Do they slip over time? 

Below are links to youtube videos explaining how they work and describe the tool and no tool installation process.

With tool - youtube video

Without tool - youtube video

Edited December 17, 2020 by mjrendon

[topgun2]

GJ - 

When I did mine several years ago I simply drilled and placed a bolt through one side only.  I figured that this plus the original catch would be enough and have never had a problem with either.

Bill

[rideandfly]

10 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Ride and Fly:  As our Ollie is often on mountain fire roads, I have had my concerns about the latch as well.  Good idea.  Do you bolt both sides, or just one?

 

John,

Maverick modified his tray locking system, but have not modified mine. Making repairs to my battery tray right now. JD's photo looks like a good idea.

Edited December 18, 2020 by rideandfly

[GraniteStaters]

I am going to use these straps to replace the existing battery straps.  These will loop thru the existing slots but won’t be detrimental to the battery casing. They are 6 foot long and I believe they will be long enough to thread through both slots and reconnect on top of each set of my 6 volt batteries.  They have a reasonable buckle and a silicone pad to cushion it against where it might rub.  This should eliminate the potential damage that might have occurred.  

[John E Davies]

Those straps look fine, but you need to come up with a way to protect the nylon material where it goes through the sharp steel tray slots. They will wear rapidly otherwise, because the load will be pulling upwards hard at a concentrated location. If you can use the front and back slots, not the side ones, you can thread them through the rear slots, then route those ends  under the tray, not back over the top. It might help. This won’t be possible if you are using the side slots since it will bind up the slides.

Or just use the same kind of hook straps and slide a piece of thin (22 gauge , 0.025”) stainless steel between the battery case and each hook. The steel itself will not hurt the battery, and it will spread the load to prevent chafing. And it will look good too. You can buy it new online, or repurpose an old stainless bowl or kitchen item. You only need a small amount.

https://alcobrametals.com/product/22ga-t304-4-polish-stianless-sheet/

John Davies

Spokane WA

[rideandfly]

The original batteries in our #75 LE2 Ollie were group 27 12V lead/acid batteries that spilled acid in the tray. A few years ago installed Group 27 12V AGM batteries and no longer have acid spillage issues.

Removed battery tray to clean and paint. Saw several issues. Found corrosion from battery acid on the battery tray and tray slides & ball bearings. Also found loose rivets that would eventually fail if not replaced. After thinking about replacing slides and rivets, decided to buy a new tray assembly from Oliver.  Ordered a new tray assembly last Tuesday that's currently installed on LE2 trailers. 

When new tray is received will post photos of old and new tray showing differences. Like what I have seen of new trays from photos posted in this thread that appear to better protect batteries.

 

[Mike and Carol]

42 minutes ago, rideandfly said:

When new tray is received will post photos of old and new tray showing differences. Like what I have seen of new trays from photos posted in this thread that appear to better protect batteries.

Bill, thanks for this.  I’m getting ready to pull out my 4 AGM’s and install 2 Battle Born’s.  I think I might have some corrosion on my tray, so I will be interested in the difference between new and old.  Mike

[mossemi]

Mike and Carol,

Now that you have decided on 2 Battle Born batteries, you shouldn’t have a problem with the hold down strap hooks.  You will have plenty of space.  I placed my 2 BB's crosswise because I planned for a 3rd battery from the start.  So I placed them in the center and used 1"x4" PVC board placed flat on the bottom of the tray in back of and in front of the batteries to keep them centered in the middle of the tray front to back.  Then I placed 1"x4" and 1/4"x1.5" PVC board on edge creating a 1" spacer for each side to control side to side movement.

I had less than 4000 miles of travel with that arrangement and did not see any damage to the battery cases.

To the collective group:

I just completed the 3rd battery addition and had to modify my original setup.  The first thing I tried was removing the front spring latch rivets and re-installing them with the heads on the inside.  That did remove the rivet bodies from inside the tray and gave me 3/16" of additional length in the tray, but that really wasn’t enough clearance for the strap hooks.  So I moved the straps to go side to side instead of lengthwise.  That position placed the straps in the gap between the batteries and I had to get creative.  See the pictures and laugh all you want.  And then offer up any suggestions you may have.

Mossey

[mjrendon]

This looks great!  I don't see any major issues.

The conduit might be a bit flexible, but it should be able to hold the batteries in place. The PVC spacer boards in the bottom of the battery tray look like they will help keep those Battleborn  stable. 

[Mike and Carol]

Thanks, Mike.  Looks like a good solution.  I’ve got my trailer in the driveway and plan to start my battery project in the next couple of days.  I also plan on getting a third battery, so will plan for that. Mike

[John E Davies]

For those who have removed the entire tray...! ... Do the two outer blind rivets go into just the fiberglass. or are there metal backing plates so the fiberglass does not tear? On my trailer, the four inner through bolts have no large area washers between the nuts and the glass - 🤬- I will fix that, but I worry some about those outer pop rivets “popping” out. There is a tremendous amount of vertical leverage going on when you hit undulations like bridge dips at highway speeds. Not to mention when you bottom out the suspension witha BANG in a deep pothole.

Thanks.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 25, 2020 by John E Davies

[rideandfly]

John,

Are these the rivet heads you're talking about?

Already have new 1/8" neoprene rubber to sandwich between the tray rails that originally contacted fiberglass on our 2015 LE2. 

Oliver has not emailed the shipping notice for the new tray assembly, hoping tray will ship before New Years.

Here's bottom of old tray where you can see the front rivet heads will contact the battery compartment fiberglass floor unless something is sandwiched between the tray rails and fiberglass:

Edited December 25, 2020 by rideandfly

[mossemi]

11 hours ago, mjrendon said:

This looks great!  I don't see any major issues.

The conduit might be a bit flexible, but it should be able to hold the batteries in place. The PVC spacer boards in the bottom of the battery tray look like they will help keep those Battleborn  stable. 

I was counting on the flex of the conduit because the middle battery is shorter than the front and rear batteries.  I may end up with a rubber spacer under the conduit or the middle battery to equalize the hieght.  I didn’t want to use metal conduit or pipe unless I covered it with shrink wrap to prevent any opportunity for a short.  There isn’t much of a lip on the edge of the battery to work with and a round object applies pressure at 6 and 8 o’clock to the batteries.  I’ll see how it works on the road and keep my thinking cap on.

2 hours ago, John E Davies said:

For those who have removed the entire tray...! ... Do the two outer blind rivets go into just the fiberglass. or are there metal backing plates so the fiberglass does not tear? On my trailer, the four inner through bolts have no large area washers between the nuts and the glass - 🤬- I will fix that, but I worry some about those outer pop rivets “popping” out. There is a tremendous amount of vertical leverage going on when you hit undulations like bridge dips at highway speeds. Not to mention when you bottom out the suspension witha BANG in a deep pothole.

Thanks.

John Davies

Spokane WA

I could see why Oliver used pop rivets in the front of the tray support angles when I took my tray out.  There isn’t any access below the tray supports in that area, so I don’t know where the expanded portion of the rivet ended up when I drilled them out.  Probably still sitting on top of the wheel well.  It was a 2 person job to get the bolts back in during the re-installation.  I did use 2" fender washers under the fiberglass.

Mossey

[rideandfly]

8 hours ago, mossemi said:

 

I could see why Oliver used pop rivets in the front of the tray support angles when I took my tray out.  There isn’t any access below the tray supports in that area, so I don’t know where the expanded portion of the rivet ended up when I drilled them out.  Probably still sitting on top of the wheel well.  It was a 2 person job to get the bolts back in during the re-installation.  I did use 2" fender washers under the fiberglass.

Mossey

Mossey,

If I understand you correctly, there were rivets installed through your front tray rails into the fiberglass?

Thanks,

Edited December 25, 2020 by rideandfly

[John E Davies]

Bill I am referring to the fasteners that attach the supports to the fiberglass.  On mine (Hull 218) there are two 3/16” steel pop rivets in the area circled. (The inner fasteners are 1/4” bolts and nuts.) That is where the fender well is, there is no way to access the bottom unless you drilled all the way through and put a nut up underneath, from above the tires. I am OK with blind rivets IF there is metal for them to grab onto....

 

 

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 25, 2020 by John E Davies

[rideandfly]

John,

Thanks,

Understand now.

On Hull #75 eight self drilling screws were used to secure the tray to fiberglass, but rivets were not used for that purpose. 

Battery trays were attached differently to fiberglass on some trailers.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by rideandfly

[Maverick]

21 hours ago, rideandfly said:

John,

Thanks,

Understand now.

On Hull #75 eight self drilling screws were used to secure the tray to fiberglass, but rivets were not used for that purpose. 

Battery trays were attached differently to fiberglass on some trailers.

 

 

On our 2015 Elite II Hull #93 eight self drilling screws were used to secure the tray to fiberglass, but no rivets.  The four longer self drilling screws in Bill's picture are towards the rear of the battery box and the four short self drilling screws were installed toward the opening of the battery box.  All eight screws has a aluminum plate under the battery box so the screws had something other than fiberglass for attachment.

When I installed the new tray I used four long 1/4" - 20 SS machine screws with SS fender washers and nylon locking nuts; for the rear screws.  You can get your hand into the area under the battery box to installed the fender washers and nuts.  The four screws towards the opening of the battery box you can not get your hand into that area; so I used four of the same type screws in SS and larger fender washers, so far no issue with the mounting.

I have attached a couple of pictures; first is the original battery tray with it's original screws used to mount it; the second picture is the replacement battery tray and the screws I used for mounting.

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Maverick

[mossemi]

On 12/25/2020 at 1:47 PM, rideandfly said:

Mossey,

If I understand you correctly, there were rivets installed through your front tray rails into the fiberglass?

Thanks,

I know JD answered you question, but here is a picture of the right side mounting rail.  I reinstalled the tray just like the factory with original nuts and bolts, and new 3/16" x 1/2" SS rivets and a dab of 3M 4000.

Mossey

Edited December 26, 2020 by mossemi