2020-21 HD Trucks

[WhatDa]

We sold the Navigator as someone offered us great money as it had a fairly rare combination of options (8 seats, HD tow, Cargo, tech, Reserve, etc...) and I need to get something with a bed for some construction projects -- while the navigator could fit a sheet of plywood in the back just fine, I have a problem throwing bags of cement in the interior of not-so-cheap SUV.  And there's a bit of boredom to quell so let's talk trucks 🙂

I've looked at the 1/2 ton Diesels, and came to the conclusion that I'd rather not have to count grams to make axle/gross weights, so here are the contenders:

2020+ RAM - For 2020 they added trailer coverage to their blindspot systems, but the transmissions on these still do not perform anywhere near as well as the Ford/GM 10-speeds.  Rumors of 2021 bringing the new 1500 cab refinements, ramboxes, and maybe the ZF transmission.  The plus is safety features are available down to the base tradesman trim -- and I'm a a fan of them.

2020+ Ford - Updated PowerStroke and transmission make this a great truck.  If I had to pick a 2020 model year, it'd probably be the Ford at this point between the nice powertrain, XLT gets all the safety features I'd like, and it comes with a front bench.  I looked at the 7.3 and it's a little too thirsty while towing for my wants based on the reports I've seen.  2022 is probably the refresh for these as the F150 is getting renewed for MY 2021.

2020+ GM - Similar to the Ford, duramax meets 10 speed is working well.  Has a better ride.  Downside is no adjustable pedals means this is just about out of the running.  Blindspot is truck-only with no trailer coverage.  Rumor is 2021+ will receive some tech/camera upgrades as well as an interior upgrade.   Hopefully the address the fact that RAM offers safety features in the base Tradesman that are only available in LTZ/SLT in the GM twins.

 

So the way I see my options are a: 2020 PSD Ford, or take a nice long rental from Enterprise Trucks and see what 2021 offers.  Thoughts?

[Overland]

I'm really happy with my Ford, but if I were looking today, I'd take a closer look at GM since I think they're even as far as towing goodies go.   I'm surprised about the blind spot system - that might be a deal breaker for me, too.  I also think their tailgate and carbon bed are better than what Ford offers.  I've never cared for Rams and there's nothing in their current lineup that would make me change my mind.  In the end I'd probably stick with the Ford since I prefer its looks, inside and out.  For myself, I'd take a look at the F250 Tremor, and if I didn't go with that, then it's a fair bet that I'd end up with just a newer Raptor.  

Edited March 26, 2020 by Overland

[John E Davies]

I am a Ram fan, have you driven any of these trucks yet? That will answer a whole lot of questions. If you can find a dealer that is operating normally. The Rebel is pretty nifty. Also do not discount the 3/4 ton Ram with its wonderful rear coil or air suspension. They drive really nice. I also took a new Power Wagon (6.4 Hemi truck motor) for a short spin and was gob smacked..... I have never towed with one but for general driving the new 8 speed is absolutely fine, the much lower first gear (than the old six speed) really gets the truck moving from a stop.

Where do you live? Dennis Dillon Ram (Boise ID) does mostly internet sales - buy online, fly in, drive home. They still have tremendous deals, (no price negotiating) and best of all they post their prices. But I suspect they are mostly locked down right now. 

https://www.dennisdillonchryslerjeepdodge.com/new-vehicles/#action=im_ajax_call&perform=get_results&page=1&type[]=New&year[]=2020&make[]=RAM&model[]=1500

Rams already use a ZF, I am not sure what you meant. It is a great transmission. I had a loaner 2018 Ram 1500 V6 with this tranny for a day, and it was very impressive.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23367341/automatic-transmission-best-zf-eight-speed/

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited March 26, 2020 by John E Davies

[WhatDa]

27 minutes ago, Overland said:

<snip> surprised about the blind spot system - that might be a deal breaker for me, too. <snip>

I'd take a look at the F250 Tremor, and if I didn't go with that, then it's a fair bet that I'd end up with just a newer Raptor.  

Yes, towing with the Navigator just after sunset, light rain, I look see nothing, turn on turn signal, look, see nothing but blind spot light flashing at me.  Odd - must be on the fritz -- oh no -- it's just someone driving a dark gray car with their headlights off in the dark/rain.....   So blindspot and adjustable pedals are the blockers for the GM twins for us now.

The nice thing about Ford is Tremor is available with Diesel and F350 so you can still have 2500+lbs of payload and good towing range.  Not sure if I'm going to fork the money for the package or just add some better tires for the base or FX4 pacakge.   The Lincoln with offroad tires handled all the Forrest Service roads/grades just fine, so not sure the clearance would really help us much out here.

[WhatDa]

15 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

I am a Ram fan, have you driven any of these trucks yet? That will answer a whole lot of questions. If you can find a dealer that is operating normally. The Rebel is pretty nifty. Also do not discount the 3/4 ton Ram with its wonderful rear coil or air suspension. They drive really nice. I also took a new Power Wagon (6.4 Hemi truck motor) for a short spin and was gob smacked..... I have never towed with one but for general driving the new 8 speed is absolutely fine, the much lower first gear (than the old six speed) really gets the truck moving from a stop.

Where do you live? Dennis Dillon Ram (Boise ID) does mostly internet sales - buy online, fly in, drive home. They still have tremendous deals, (no price negotiating) and best of all they post their prices. But I suspect they are mostly locked down right now. 
 

https://www.dennisdillonchryslerjeepdodge.com/new-vehicles/#action=im_ajax_call&perform=get_results&page=1&type[]=New&year[]=2020&make[]=RAM&model[]=1500

John Davies

Spokane WA

We're in King County, WA -- so nothing "normal" here as we are on full "stay home stay safe" lock down.  Local dealers seem willing to deliver for a test drive, so considering that option.  I got to drive the 2019 versions of all the trucks and the 2020 version of the GM.  Ram (2500 or 3500 with air) rides the best, but shifts the worst - especially the Aisin.  The RAM 1500 is probably my front runner for 1/2 tons as it allows diesel+air suspension+33 gallon tank from the factory.  But as with all half tons, weight becomes a concern - especially once tool boxes, caps, and covers are added - thus kind of just looking at the 350/3500 class trucks at this point.

[MarkC]

Just traded my 2005 duramax in on a 2020 Ford F350 diesel.  This will be my 4th diesel p/u.  Over kill for an Oliver but you don't have to worry about weight.I don't like all the emission stuff and went round and round with gas vs diesel debate.  Finally threw my hands up and said what the hell and bought the diesel.  I like the torque...so much more that the 05 dura max.  Like the fuel tank...range guage says almost 900 miles after fill up just an est. and not towing. The 10 speed transmission is great...turns about 1400 rpm @ 55 mph.  It does have a camera, tpms system option that you can add to your trailer and can read on your dash.  Which I liked until I found out the camera only operates when in reverse.  I think I will opt. for the Oliver camera.  The ride is stiffer than the Chev. but I think that is generally the case.  Had a F350 before I purchased the duramax and was impressed with the ride of the chev. over the Ford at the time.  But put a trailer on it or weight in the bed will make a big difference.  I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the big 3 makers.  Just get what you like.  Good luck and good health. 

[John E Davies]

8 minutes ago, MarkC said:

.  It does have a camera, tpms system option that you can add to your trailer and can read on your dash.  Which I liked until I found out the camera only operates when in reverse.  I think I will opt. for the Oliver camera.  

Check online at the Ford forums, there may be a dealer setting, or a simple hack that can activate the camera when going forward. It may be something as simple as bypassing a sensor. For example, GM Start Stop mode in some of their cars can be bypassed with a tiny plug and play box that connects at the “hood closed” switch. The car thinks it is being serviced so it stays running all the time. Ha ha! Take that GM!

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited March 26, 2020 by John E Davies

[WhatDa]

6 minutes ago, MarkC said:

  Like the fuel tank...range guage says almost 900 miles after fill up just an est. and not towing. 

What configuration you have?  We are looking at the crew cab short bed, so 34 gallons (vs 48 if we went long).  But Transferflow does make a 60 gallon replacement tank that we should have enough budget in our payload for.

[MarkC]

I got the long bed.  It fits my needs and have always owned one.  But definitely a challenge parking and turning around.  I've always said you have to back up twice to turn around.  If you've never driven one it can be intimidating at first.  I like the space...dog kennels, waterfowl decoys, coolers, etc.  Never seem to have enough room and only use half of what I take.  What's that saying..."be prepared."  I probably take it too far.  Again,  get what you like.  I must say, two trucks ago, my wife and 3 boys talked me into getting a gas, short bed, 2500 chev.  I was driving an F350 diesel at the time.  I let them talk me into it.  Pretty blue one.  The boys thought it was much sportier than the old ford.  First week I had to tow a tractor on a heavy trailer.  First time I had to accelerate from a stop light convinced me I shouldn't of listened to them. No power and I filled it up 3 times in a week!  Following Monday, took it back to the dealer and got a 3500 long bed duramax, black.  Just what I wanted! 

[BackofBeyond]

Just go drive them. I must admit, there are  way to many bells and whistles on most of them.  I was set on a Ford, ended up with a GMC and have been very happy with it to date. I may look at the 2021's in DEC 2021... til then the current one will be touring the country - Corona permitting...

John - no start stop on the 2500 GMC. or any other 3/4 I'm aware of.

[SeaDawg]

I bought a "bed extender" for my short bed, regular cab Silverado for hauling plywood, long lumber, etc. It attaches to the hitch. I also used it on Paul's truck, which is a 4 door, short bed ram 1500. Worked well for us while building our home. I did a lot of lumber runs.

I would not want to drive an extended or crew cab with a long bed in city traffic. Not for me.

Sherry

[WhatDa]

22 feet+ (which is right where the CC+LB F350 is) results in higher ferry fees here too.  $20 turns into $30 or $60 depending on height - 7'2" being the breaking point.

 Also when I talk the "short" bed for the F350, it's 6.8' long vs the 5.5' on the 1/2 tons.  So not long enough to carry plywood/sheetrock with the tailgate up, but certainly ok with it down.   We'd also take a double cab, long bed -- but those aren't too easy to find.  With the factories shutdown, not sure I want to order something right now.

[Trainman]

I looked at all three offered by the big three manufactures and went with the Ram 1500. It did get down to if I wanted to use the Anderson WDH or not, that is going with a 2500 over the 1500 model. It got down to a coin flip as both would be Hemi powered, but the 2500 has the larger Hemi. We went with the 1500 as towing the Oliver would handle the trailer just fine and within factory specs, but the Anderson would be needed. We opted for the 1500 as wife liked the lower height and the ride was more to her liking. All being said, if I had to do it over again I would probably go again with the 1500 over the 2500 as the 1500 tows the Oliver just fine and there is no shortage of power and handling with the 1500. Truck description below.

 

trainman

[wyofilm]

Has anyone test driven the new F250 7.3 L gas?  Some day I would enjoy getting rid of my modern diesels.  

[WhatDa]

I didn't get a chance to test drive one, but the towing mileage from the interwebs with them is less than stellar.  TFL Truck got 5.6 MPG (vs 6.9 MPG on the Chevy gasser) towing with a mini fifth wheel.  They haven't done the MPG loop with that trailer and the updated PS+10 speed, but expect it to turn 10-12 MPG.  The dollars don't work out to be in the Diesels favor, even if it gets double the mileage due to the $8k premium in price (some may be recaptured later). 

 

The problem is the 7.3 has a 34 gallon tank unless you go to Crew + 8' bed - when you get 48 gallons.  While the Ollie is probably more aerodynamic (and certainly lighter) than the Cimarron they used for the test, you'll still be looking for gas stations ~170 miles apart to keep the reserve on the 34 gallon tank.  Titan and Transferflow make replacement tanks for Diesel Super Duty trucks in the 55-65 gallon range, but not for gas.  That should unlock 1000 miles without a trailer and 500 miles with a trailer for the Diesels - which for us means getting fuel only once per day vs 3x per day or being able to choose exactly where to charge.  If that's not enough an autotransfer bed auxiliary tank (another 50-80 gallons) is possible with Diesel - but not with gas.  On a cross country trip this means buying fuel in the cheap states only.

There are some other characteristics which make the Diesel a plus. 1) it's heavier which means more weight on the steer axle (you do lose payload, but in an F350 that is less of a concern).  2) it's quieter under load  - that V8 growl gets old on a long mountain pass or long headwinds. 

All reviews do point to the 7.3 being fun to drive, better for offroad as its lighter (the weight on steer axle is a plus when towing), easier/cheaper to maintain, having plenty of torque, etc... but for me it's the logistics of MPG * tank size.  If TransferFlow or Titan come out with XXL gas tank replacements that could seriously boost its usability.  Choosing the 7.3 wouldn't be wrong, but for me I'd rather have the added range of the Diesel, even if I'll pay out the nose at purchase and every oil change.

[wyofilm]

WhatDa -

Thanks for the overview.  I agree with many of your points, especially the limited range.  In my neck of the woods the low temps and remote location turn DEF systems into a liability.  I tow stock and flatbed trailers with a Ram 3500, which is of course well suited for the purpose, but DEF systems don't always like extreme cold temps (not to mention cold morning diesel starts!).  It is my dream to be rid of diesel trucks for their modern liabilities.  The torque of the gas engines won't match the diesels, but the ford 7.3l might be adequate.  We'll see.  Many of my neighbors won't buy modern diesels because of their modern reliability problems.   They just search out older diesel trucks and put some money into them.  That strategy won't work forever.  

But of course I have the issues with tractors ...

[John E Davies]

The new 7.3l Ford gas engine with a supercharger and about 5psi of boost would be truly enjoyable..... but it will really mess with the fuel economy and you would need Premium fuel. I don’t think you would have to worry about durability.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Mike and Carol]

Speaking of big V8’s, I’ve been watching the Rebel TRX news.  They say it will either have a supercharged 6.2L with somewhere between 575 to 707 HP, depending on how they tune it, or a normally aspirated 7.0L with 525 HP.  Mike

[WhatDa]

Rebel TRX should be able to make it up Ike...it's just a question of Payload and Towing - neither of which I am guessing it is optimized for 🙂

[Mike and Carol]

2 hours ago, WhatDa said:

Rebel TRX should be able to make it up Ike...it's just a question of Payload and Towing - neither of which I am guessing it is optimized for 🙂

My guess is that the TRX will be optimized for performance not towing.  Still, a 700HP all wheel drive truck would be interesting....😎

[WhatDa]

Yeah, it would still be fun.  That's also the appeal of the Cybertruck, it has a good chance of towing well and being fast.   The TRX and it probably share about the same range before empty 🙂

 

On the topic of modern diesels -- a cherry used LBZ Duramax is as much as new new truck.  We're opting for new for safety features and also used car shopping is a bit rough with the COVID-19 measures in place.  Just waiting to see April's offers from the makes and 529 should be back to racking up some miles.

[BackofBeyond]

Ahh  - a topic with clear non opinionated choices - not! 

Like JD, I would love a diesel comparable big block gas fueled TV. I researched the GM offering, and the Ford too, but came away with similar conclusions - still not there in performance. Price wise, sure, but not in actual real world heavy duty towing. 

With the last GM labor strike, and now the Covid shutdowns, the availability of future product will be greatly limited. 2020 will be a small production run, for everyone, and 2021 - who knows. Perhaps prices will moderate - due to reduced demand, but still a lot of $$$$$$. I would imagine the used-preowned market would be hot - with prices inflated to match.

A good possibility - the OEM's jump a year or two in product cycle improvement - and 2021 offerings are significantly upgraded from past offerings. A 2500 rated diesel Toyota 4wd, would be something I would take a look at, but it seems more a pipe dream. 

Stay safe,

RB

[WhatDa]

4 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

 A 2500 rated diesel Toyota 4wd, would be something I would take a look at, but it seems more a pipe dream. 

That'd be the dream.  The 2022 Tundra will probably come with all the latest safety goodies on even its base trims.  For Ford that means Lariat Ultimate, GM SLT/LTZ, and RAM special packages.   The rumored hybrid turbo-six will probably be great for around town, but probably be equal to an EcoBoost on the road.  But by the time that comes around, Cybertrucks will be rolling in.

I'm trying to figure out the actual payload of some of the Diesel 1500 Silverados around me as they have heavy rebates and it might be the only 1500 that works close to an HD.  Otherwise we'll see what rebates bring for any of the HD trucks this month.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by WhatDa

[WhatDa]

Just got some door jamb pictures from some Chevy 1500 LTZ - 5.5' bed ~1500 lbs and 6.5' ~1600 lbs payload - both baby Duramax.  Pretty tempting with the offers that are out there, we'll see if HD offers catch up.

Edited April 1, 2020 by WhatDa

[WhatDa]

So I've narrowed down the challengers and their (discount) dealer advertised prices.

Silverado 1500 Duramax 3.0 1500 +Tech - $45k - plus is it turns great mileage that the super duty could only hope for.  Downside is pedals don't adjust.  Which is why when I step to the 1 Ton trucks I head toward Ford.  Adaptive Cruise control doesn't work as well as Ford's.  This is probably the cheapest option to buy and run.  1600lbs payload isn't terrible for a 1/2 ton.  I could pick this up and be back in a day.

F350 XLT - $58k - For 2020 Ford adds all the safety goodies to the XLT.  Never worry about payload. 2+ day trip or shipping

F350 Lariat - $68k - Adds adaptive cruise, seat/pedal/mirror memory, leather seats, and automatic climate control.  Not sure if it's worth the 10k or not.

 

Right now I'm pretty torn between the baby duramax 1500 and the F350 XLT.  1500 is probably more than good enough and the F350 is 28% more money.   I think I may just see what May brings as it looks like GM/RAM are moving much more product than Ford, so may have to play catch up with some incentives.