Heat wave - is anybody with lithium batteries planning to bring them inside where it is cool?

[John E Davies]

I was just wondering, with Western temps in the 100 to 130 degree range, if your trailer is stored outdoors, have you thought about taking the lithium batteries into your home or other air conditioned building? That kind of heat, especially cooking for a week in direct sunlight, can possibly damage them.

It is supposed to get to 110 by next week here in Spokane , a huge record for this date, but “Mouse” is indoors, and the temp in the RV bay, aka the Hanger Deck, should stay below 90.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008248475/the-record-temperatures-enveloping-the-west-is-not-your-average-heat-wave

If you are camping in the open in your Ollie, how do you stay comfortable? Be safe.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[RBD]

Tucson, AZ - record heat wave this week.  Researched storage of lithium batteries in excessive heat and you are correct, they should be stored indoors.  Not an expert, but need to decide which battery option to select for our Elite 1 build, the thought of removing / storing / reinstalling for every trip is not appealing.

[John E Davies]

RBD, if I lived and camped in the Arizona lowlands I would definitely not order lithiums, they will not last. Buy cheap lead acid deep cycle batteries and plan on replacing them every two years at most, and a generator for running the AC. At least you have plenty of sunshine, get solar for sure. FYI using them at extreme temps is what is hardest in them, the onboard BMS controls should in theory limit any damage, but it wouldn’t hurt to disconnect the cables. For sure turn off all chargers and don’t try to keep them at 100% state of charge all the time. I would remove mine and take them into my motel room😬

If you had a conditioned  garage to store the LE1 in, then they would be fine, as long as you didn’t plan on camping during the summer there. At least lithiums are very light in weight.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Kevin and Theresa]

Kingman Az here. Yup this past month has been terrible. We don't pick our Oliver up till feb. We did go with the lithium upgrade package. Our garage (where it will be kept when not in use) is getting a split system just incase.  We do  hope to pick up our Oliver and immediately start to travel full time as the retirement plug gets pulled 2 weeks before we pick it up. We will follow the weather. 

[Overland]

I've researched, but never found a good answer, on the question of how much hot temps in storage affect lithiums vs hot temps while in use.  Victron lists a max storage temp some 70° higher than the max operating temp for their batteries, so I do assume that the storage temperature is less damaging, at least to some degree.

[RBD]

Advice on the AGM option for our LE1 build? Would they handle the heat better than the lithium batteries ?

Thanks, RBD

Tucson, AZ

 

[John E Davies]

Four 6 volt AGMs would certainly be better in ferocious heat, but a full set replaced every two or three years will get very pricy, they are like $250 each I think. Unless you really need the capacity, I would go with a couple of cheap 12 volt deep cycle AGMs from Walmart and consider them to be disposable….. but if you get the inverter and microwave, you need a great big battery bank, it is required for that huge load. I am not sure the exact model that Oliver is using now, something like this: https://www.batterywholesale.com/products/bright-way-group-bw-evgc8-8v-170ah-sla-battery

Do you plan to boondock or plug in to shore power mostly? Choices, choices…..

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

[BackofBeyond]

14 minutes ago, RBD said:

Advice on the AGM option for our LE1 build? Would they handle the heat better than the lithium batteries ?

Thanks, RBD

Tucson, AZ

 

Heat tolerance of automotive lead-acid batteries - ScienceDirect

Seems so - according to these guys.

As to LI - another reason I was not on the LI train. If I was to visit my family in desert AZ this summer - would I have a problem with the LI - maybe.  

So how do those with the LI set up deal with it - what does Oliver say about it.

I need to AC my Oliver to protect the batteries???

Seems impracticable for the normal RV'er. 

[BackofBeyond]

3 minutes ago, John E Davies said:

Four 6 volt AGMs would certainly be better in ferocious heat, but a full set replaced every two or three years will get very pricy, they are like $250 each I think. Unless you really need the capacity, I would go with a couple of cheap 12 volt deep cycle AGMs from Walmart and consider them to be disposable….. but if you get the inverter and microwave, you need a great big battery bank, it is required for that huge load. I am not sure the exact model that Oliver is using now, something like this: https://www.batterywholesale.com/products/bright-way-group-bw-evgc8-8v-170ah-sla-battery

Do you plan to boondock or plug in to shore power mostly? Choices, choices…..

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

I do not know the $$ of the Oliver LI platinum package - over that of the AGM - but one of our posters indicated the cost to upgrade to LI was in the neighborhood of $8500. Seems that  buys many years of replacement AGM's

Add a low cost gen set - and just smile as you go about your travels.

RB.  

[RBD]

Thank you all for the advice on my LE1 build.

2 AGM’s will be added to the build sheet.

RBD 

Tucson, AZ

[Minnesota Oli]

 I thought I would call Battle Born Batteries and ask them about this issue with camping in hot temps. First I looked at their website and found this information.

Temperature restrictions on Battle Born Batteries

Battle Born Batteries protect themselves from charging in cold temperatures and won’t accept a charge once the internal cell temperature drops to 24°F. At this point they will continue to discharge even down to -4°F. At this temperature we recommend no longer pulling power to avoid damaging the batteries.

Insulated battery boxes, heating blankets, and placing your battery bank inside your RV will help keep the temperature stable. On the high end of temperature range, the batteries will shut down once 135°F is reached.

When talking to the representative he advised me that I would see a slight loss of performance in 105 and plus degrees battery temperature but it would not hurt your battery and it would retain it normal performance once you were in cooler climate and battery temp drop below 105 degrees, also the battery will shut down once 135 degrees is reached in the battery. He said that it has not been a problem with RV users.

 I think in the case of the Oliver with it's battery not in the direct sunlight I don't think they'll be a problem. I would suggest anyone trying to make a decision on what battery type to buy should contact the battery manufacture and get all of their concerns answered. I know at Battle Born the rep was very knowledgeable and friendly and would probably talk to you all day.

Paul

 

[Overland]

I'd be careful not to apply Battleborn recommendations to any other brand though, since they use a different type of lithium battery than most others.  And either because of that, or for some other reason, they have always been much less picky when it comes to battery maintenance, whether it's temps, charging profile, storage recommendations, etc.  

[Jim_Oker]

The LifeBlue battery data sheet says  "over temperature protection"  from the BMS kicks in at 149F and cuts back out when it drops to 131F. They recommend a temperature storage range topping out at 95F but I presume that sitting for a few days just a bit  above that as I'm  likely to  see here near Seattle from Sat-Mon is not a dealbreaker. I could  pull  them  out  and  stick  them in my  basement (the rest of the house will probably be at  least as hot as the battery compartment in the trailer) but I'm not convinced that it's  worth it.

 

[Ray and Susan Huff]

18 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

I do not know the $$ of the Oliver LI platinum package - over that of the AGM - but one of our posters indicated the cost to upgrade to LI was in the neighborhood of $8500. Seems that  buys many years of replacement AGM's

Add a low cost gen set - and just smile as you go about your travels.

RB.  

You have to discount the $8500 by the cost of upgrade from lead-acid to AGM, less the price difference between 2000w and 3000w inverter.  I don't know the current costs; yes, I'm a retired bean counter 😁

[Ray and Susan Huff]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, John E Davies said:

I was just wondering, with Western temps in the 100 to 130 degree range, if your trailer is stored outdoors, have you thought about taking the lithium batteries into your home or other air conditioned building? That kind of heat, especially cooking for a week in direct sunlight, can possibly damage them.

It is supposed to get to 110 by next week here in Spokane , a huge record for this date, but “Mouse” is indoors, and the temp in the RV bay, aka the Hanger Deck, should stay below 90.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Our Ollie will be parked in our driveway (battery compartment facing North and shaded in the afternoon).  I'll monitor lithium battery internal temperature this weekend as our temps are predicted to be near 100, if not higher.

Temp only reached 85 today. . . . . lithium batteries read 68 deg internal temp.  I'll check again tomorrow when it's supposed to be quite a bit warmer.

Edit: Temperature stats from Sat/Sun/Mon of the heat wave (June 26-280

Internal Battery Temperature Tracking - LifeBlue
26-Jun	10:30 AM	80	76	70.0
	12:30 PM	85	78	70.2
	3:00 PM	92	80	73.0
	5:00 PM	88	81	75.2
	6:00 PM	81	81	77.0
	9:00 PM	72	78	78.8
27-Jun
	9:00 AM	72	68	72.4
	11:00 AM	85	69	73.4
	1:00 PM	101.8	69	73.4
	3:00 PM	103	72	75.3
28-Jun
	12:30 PM	81	75	72.5
	3:30 PM	86	81	77.0
	5:00 PM	83	78	78.7
	7:00 PM	72	76	78.8

                                               Outside       Battery Compartment    Battery 

Excuse the formatting; it lost something in the cut and paste

 

[Jim and Frances]

As previously mentioned, each manufacturer may have different specs.  I just got off the phone with the Lithionics folks, as I understands the current supplier for OTT).  They confirmed that the BMS will shut batteries off at 130F  or so (as sensed on the cell liners).  He said it takes time from a cell to get up to this temperature.  As for storage, their storage guidelines are attached.   

He went on to say that their storage specifications are very conservative.  This make sense given a max temp for normal operations of 130F and storage specs of 95F max.  

My thought would be that 24-hour average temps of <95F for storage would be fine.  Not many places see a 95F 24-hour average.

I feel for you folks in the west with all this heat.  At least for most of you, sweat works with your low humidity.  Something that fails us here in the south 🌞

Storage-Procedure-Rev-03 (1).pdf

[Overland]

I’m curious about the humidity requirements, given that it’s a sealed battery. I think in the southeast, the only way you’d meet those is to bring the batteries inside, or air condition your garage.

[Jim and Frances]

LOL - I already asked this question.  The Lithionics contact is getting with their engineers to better understand this limit.  I guess, shoveling loads of desiccant into the battery compartment is the only way it would work for us with average RH of 85%+ .  As soon as I hear back, I will post.

[Jim_Oker]

My car claimed 106 as I pulled in to the driveway a short bit ago. The self-reporting  from our LifeBlue's BMS says both batteries are just under 90F - they've lagged daytime highs each day thus far (and  as you might guess also  don't cool down to nighttime lows). They must have a fair bit  of thermal mass. The adjacent basement area on the  sunny side of the trailer (batteries are on  north) is reading 99F. The  National Weather Service says  that the wind is going to  shift this afternoon out  at the coast, bringing  badly missed breeze out of  the west off  the  water  as  the  trough  that's been pulling  hot air from the east over the  Cascades (essentially  a Foehn wind) finally  stumbles eastward. We get some semblance  of cool air overnight tonight  if  the  forecast holds - "cool" being relative  to the  overnight temps  of the last three nights, a lovely 67 per NWS, though normally we'd be seeing  temps in the fifties at night now. Given the battery readings and the forecast short duration of the most intense part of this historic heat event (historic for WA and OR and also BC  which is setting all-time-any-month heat records for all of Canada) I'm feeling OK about the choice to leave  the  batteries  where they  sit in  the trailer. Within a month we should  have a carport type structure under which  to park  Ollie in a shady cedar grove (where it tends to be significantly cooler than in the sun of our  driveway) that will further moderate the temperature  swings  the  trailer experiences, so as long as we don't keep making history then  I likely won't  have to fuss with carting the batteries back and forth for  storage. I  hope y'all  in other parts  of this heat dome are doing OK. Looks like Spokane will  be a bit of an  oven through at least  mid week. I'll be rooting for  that predicted sea breeze to stiffen and make its way to the  ID  border and beyond!

[Jim_Oker]

On 6/25/2021 at 5:57 AM, Ray and Susan Huff said:

Our Ollie will be parked in our driveway (battery compartment facing North and shaded in the afternoon).  I'll monitor lithium battery internal temperature this weekend as our temps are predicted to be near 100, if not higher.

Temp only reached 85 today. . . . . lithium batteries read 68 deg internal temp.  I'll check again tomorrow when it's supposed to be quite a bit warmer.

I'll be curious what you've seen. As I mentioned above  our BMS is reporting that  our batteries  are significantly lagging  the daily  highs.

[Galway Girl]

I have upgraded to a pair (2) of the Lithionics 315GTS which are in an Aluminum Enclosure and 315AH rated.
Below is my readout today of battery status at 2:46PM, trailer is in full sun and at our house the outside thermometer is pegged at 100F at the moment.

I note that the Highest Recorded battery TEMP (87) is different from the BMS temperature (89).

I  have been testing these batteries now for 1 month of camping under various conditions.

Dry Camping Test: 3 days at Kalaloch

When we were dry  camping at the Kalaloch in Olympic NP the temps were in the low 60's during the day and high 30's at night.
We were using approximately 60AH/day and we were using all our appliances, running fans and lights, TV etc.
We had high overcast conditions and a partial sun site, and thus solar was only putting back in about 15 AH in the day.

That means under those conditions I could run 10 days before having to get out the generator.

Full Hookup Test: Xantrex 2000XC inverter / charger 

When at places like Steamboat Rock where we had full hookups we found the the batteries charged very quickly when connected to shore power.
The new Inverter/Charger pumps out up to 100A and has done a great job for us so far.

 

Charging while Driving: Testing the Victron DC/DC charger

We stayed at Klipchuck NFS campground in the N. Cascades last week and after a couple days I had the opportunity to test how the new Victron DC/DC charger setup would work with some batteries that were depleted by 15% (~500A Remaining)  
When  I connected up the truck to the trailer (via our new Anderson Connectors) and started the engine, I used the Victron App to follow the charge cycle...and the DC/DC started pumping out 25A immediately in Bulk Charge mode.  We then drove about 2 hours to our next stop (Rasar SP) and found that the batteries had been fully recharged during the 2 hour drive.  The combo of SOLAR and the Victron DC/DC really make charging slick.

 

Finally, I when I upgraded to my Lithium batteries I was able to move my dual 12V AGM's into the back of the truck.  
I also installed a Redarc DC/DC charger and have found that to be a great addition for running our ARB Fridge which we keep in the truck bed.

 

Hope everyone is keeping their cool this summer and getting out in their Oliver's.

 

Craig 

Hull 505 - Galway Girl

https://4-ever-hitched.com

 

 

[Landrover]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:53 AM, Ray and Susan Huff said:

You have to discount the $8500 by the cost of upgrade from lead-acid to AGM, less the price difference between 2000w and 3000w inverter.  I don't know the current costs; yes, I'm a retired bean counter 😁

Sorry folks I have to chuckle about this post,  kinda crazy.  Big tech battery’s  big bucks configure and reconfigure now you have to take out the battery’s because they get too hot? I like my generator better. Camping fun at its best  i guess this is the new enjoyment of camping. I’ll stick with a good book  fishing nice fire and a couple of beers. To technical for me. 🤯😜

[SeaDawg]

I'm really on the fence. I figure we have at least a year, maybe two,  on our second set of two 12v , 105 ah agm batteries  .

I never worry about temperature,  though perhaps I should.  

Would I love the extra storage of lithium? Sure. Absolutely.  I wouldn't have to be a power miser, as I  have traditionally done.

What i love about agm is no maintenance,  no temperature worries (mostly temperate, for us, only two weeks of nights below freezing, lots of warm/hot days). 

So, 9.5 weeks of camping this year, so far. No hookups.  We have the self-imposed extraordinary circumstances of a dc/danfoss/secop fridge. Even with that load, and my puny two 105 ah batteries,  we've only run the genset maybe 10 times,  in the morning. We do have 400 watts of rooftop solar, an 200 watts portable. And, we've had a number of cloudy and rainy days.

Next year, I'll start worrying about what to do.

For now, we're good with our agm.

 

[Overland]

FWIW, I don't worry about temperature either.  I think if you want to wring out every last amp hour out of lithiums, then sure, obsess over temperature - otherwise, avoid extremes and they should be fine.  If I lived in southern Arizona and could only keep my trailer in the sun, then I might give some thought to moving the batteries somewhere cooler. Or if I lived in North Dakota and had to dig my trailer out of the snow every spring, then I'd do the same.  

[Ray and Susan Huff]

17 hours ago, Jim_Oker said:

I'll be curious what you've seen. As I mentioned above  our BMS is reporting that  our batteries  are significantly lagging  the daily  highs.

I edited my previous post with stats from three days of heat wave (Sat, June 26-Mon, June 28) 

Monday saw much lower temps, mostly due to smoke haze that blew into the Oregon S Coast from the Lava Fire just north of Weed, CA.

I hope the cooling trend continues as I have vegetable starts that need to be planted in our raised beds.  Setting them out in 90-100 degree heat would be devastating.  It's 8:30, overcast and 60 degrees outside.  Looks promising.