Made in USA leaf springs

[2008RN]

6 minutes ago, hobo said:

Can you provide the specifics on the Bulldog HD shocks please?

Thanks, (2 HOBOS) Hull 414

This bull dog shock is a direct replacement for the Monroe 555001  https://www.4statetrucks.com/bulldog-hd-shock-absorber-replaces-555001-19-050000007

I've only have 300 miles on the Bulldogs shocks,  They are so much better than the Original Monroes.

I bought the trailer 10 months old with 5K miles on it. The original owner basically made 2 trips. One from the factory to Idaho via California, and another trip back to California.  I followed the trailer for about 40 miles right after we purchased it. I remember thinking it odd that the trailer like to swayed side to side going down the freeway, but then never thought about it again. Then 2 years later and 2,000 miles,  the trailer was moving everywhere on a rougher 2 lane paved road and truck/trailer became difficult the manage. 

I thought I would give the Bull Dogs a try. The Bull Dogs were the price was about the same as the Monroe 555001 online. Nothing ventured nothing gained. I figured if I bought the Monroes they would be trash in a year to  two years depending on the miles I drove. If the Bulldogs make it 2 years then they will have out lasted the Monroes.

Next spring I plan on new springs before we take our first big trip cross the nation.

[Minnesota Oli]

I just want to make clear to Oliver owners that are researching information about replacement leaf springs. I have received a PM about my earlier post and and they were understanding that the  Alcan leaf springs were rated at 2000# when they are actually rated at 2750 pounds. I want forum members to have the right information so they can make the best choice for there needs.   

[ScubaRx]

On 4/9/2024 at 9:15 AM, Paul and Santina said:

I also just ordered springs from ALCAN for my 2022 LE2. My existing U-bolts measured 1/2” diameter (thread) by 3” wide (axle diameter), but Lou mentioned that other Oliver’s U-bolts have been 9/16” diameter by 3” wide, or 1/2” diameter by 2 1/2” wide. Anyone else have the 1/2” by 3” U-bolts?

The original U-Bolts on my 2014 EII were 1/2" in diameter with a round top bend for a 3" axle. These were for my original Dexter five-leaf spring packs and 5200 pound axles. The U-Bolts you will receive will be 9/16". They would not fit through my mounting plate as it was originally drilled. I drilled out the holes to 19/32" and they fit perfectly.

Edited May 12 by ScubaRx

[ScubaRx]

20 hours ago, Minnesota Oli said:

I been following this topic and it got me to look at my springs and sure enough 1,750 pound four leaf springs were failing. I was leaning to ALCAN five leaf for replacement but when Geromimo John came up with the Dexter 2400 pound rated 4-leaf I decided that would be a better fit. My thinking is keep the ride as soft as I can but have springs  strong enough not to distort them from the load that the Oliver puts on them. So this bumps the 7000 pound rating to 9600 pound rating and I think this should be sufficient for them to carry the load with out distorting the springs. I included a pic of the 2400# spring next to the worst 1750# spring.

 

 

 

 

 

For anyone desiring the quality and design of the Alcan branded springs, be aware that they do NOT make a spring rated at only 2400 pounds for either a 3500 pound or a 5200 pound axle. Their only spring is a 2750 pound rated pack.

Every spring that I have seen broken has been the fifth leaf at the point where the fourth leaf ends. The best design feature of the Alcan's is that the fourth leaf extends out to where the spring eye starts to form at the end of the fifth leaf. This dramatically increases the strength of the fifth leaf and virtually negates the possibility of a break occurring at the tradition failure point. This one attribute convinced me that these are the best designed springs available. I was not interested in a lighter duty 2000 or 2400 pound spring pack, so the 2750 rating was perfect.

The spring pictured here has the same potential for breakage as the OEMs and would not be my choice.

Edited May 12 by ScubaRx

[MAX Burner]

3 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

I drilled out the holes to 19/32" and they fit perfectly.

Absolutely correct, Steve.

We did the same procedure by drilling-out our spring plates for the 9/16" U-bolts.  Not only are the U-bolts beefier, but the Alcan-provided nuts are 50% longer than those on the standard Dexter axle made with sub-standard Chinese spring steel leafs.  More thread contact between bolt and nut = mo betta.

2 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

The best design feature of the Alcan's is that the fourth leaf extends out to where the spring eye starts to form at the end of the fifth leaf.

This was one of the main decision points in going with Alcan versus Dexter spring packs for our application.  Dexter's 5-pack springs are designed in the same fashion as the 1750# 4-packs - with the 4th longest leaf extending to only about 3.5" from either eyelet.  This is the traditional break failure point that Steve's referring to in his description above.  

With the Alcan design, that 4th spring fills the gap by extending to the point where the 5th leaf starts curving for the eyelet.  Another feature of the Alcans, previously discussed but adding here for clarity, is the larger walled bronze bushing - 3/16" versus 1/16" for the Dexters that had bronze bushings.  This thicker walled bushing creates an even larger diameter eyelet = mo betta.  Please note that the current Dexter 1750# 4-spring packs w/D52 axles are fixed with plastic bushings.  I observed this first-hand last week when replacing our D35s for the D52s.

Serious NOTE:  Owners with the newer Dexters should determine if their axles are equipped with either bronze or plastic/nylon bushings.  Why, you ask?  If a rig's running gear is fixed with an axle kit using spring packs with plastic bushings and using Dexter EZ-flex wet bolts, the bushings will likely not last a season.  The petroleum-based grease used for the wet bolts can decompose plastic bushings.  Not good, IMO.

The pic below shows Alcan's extended 4th leaf right to the curvature point of the 5th spring's eyelet - a robust design feature not found in either the 4- or 5-pack Dexter Chinese-made spring kits (FYI, the traditional breaking point with the Dexter 4-packs is about where the end of the 3rd spring is located, see below pic):

Comment on Shocks:  If one assumes that OTTs are "under sprung" - i.e., not heavy enough leaf springs, then the constant expansion/contraction rate that the Monroe's experience is very high.  IMO, this wears out the shocks much sooner - and which were never designed for an "under sprung" suspension to begin with.  Using heavier-duty shocks on the same running gear may last a bit longer but shock failure will occur sooner than if they were mounted on running gear of heavier design.  The Alcan option may just allow our shocks to last their designed lifespan... who knows?  

Let's get some miles on these babies and find out!

'nuf said.

 

Edited May 12 by MAX Burner
typo corrected....

[Geronimo John]

23 hours ago, Minnesota Oli said:

My thinking is keep the ride as soft as I can but have springs  strong enough not to distort them from the load that the Oliver puts on them. So this bumps the 7000 pound rating to 9600 pound rating and I think this should be sufficient for them to carry the load with out distorting the springs. I included a pic of the 2400# spring next to the worst 1750# spring.

Paul:  

Thanks for your post.  You basically shrunk down into a few sentences about 15 pages of posts.  Really good to see your pictures showing how the 2400-pound springs have achieved their rating.  Priceless.  After all the negative vibes I have received from being "The Lone Dissenting Target" on this topic, it's nice to see some positive vibes for a change. 

In my research, and subsequent purchase, I learned that these springs do come with nylon bushing  inserts as stated above.  A few weeks ago when I ordered the 2400's, I also purchased brass bushing inserts.  I'll switch them out in July when I install my springs.  I apologize for not mentioning this earlier.  But as you can sense, I was buried by "Confirmation Bias".   

Hopefully OTT will step in and give us their fleet recommendation on the 1750 topic.  Way overdue. 

GJ

[rich.dev]

4 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

Every spring that I have seen broken has been the fifth leaf at the point where the fourth leaf ends. The best design feature of the Alcan's is that the fourth leaf extends out to where the spring eye starts to form at the end of the fifth leaf. This dramatically increases the strength of the fifth leaf and virtually negates the possibility of a break occurring at the tradition failure point.very 

 Excellent point! 👏 

[jd1923]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:43 PM, Geronimo John said:

The distinction that many are making is thinking that 4 pack spring sets are by definition always bad, and the 5 packs are good.  Also that everything made in China is bad and everything made in USA is always good.  Hopefully we can also agree that these logic lines are full of holes...

Not because they are Chinese or 4 leaf...

So, two members have purchased the Dexter brand 2400 LB springs and more than 10 of us have purchase the Alcan product, rated at 2750 LBS.
When I upgrade, it's Alcan for sure!

It's not that everything made in China is bad, just literally millions of MADE IN CHINA products are of extremely poor quality (go ahead and take your chance on your $100K investment). The marketing slogan is Better-Faster-Cheaper though they often forget the first word is BETTER! 

When give choice, I will NEVER purchase from the CCP and will pay hundreds more for first choice MADE IN USA and second choice ANYTHING BUT CHINA. I need a bumper sticker that SCREAMS this sediment. I believe I also wrote this on page 6, or maybe it was page 9, no 12! I'll bet this thread hits 20 pages...

The design of the Alcan has the second leaf fully extended to the full length of the main leaf. @ScubaRx just wrote it clearly in B&W, @MAX Burner mentioned it at least twice and I wrote of it before. No brainer, this is the cause of failure. Good ol' Dexter can make a heavier spring, but not a better one. EOF

 

[Geronimo John]

JD:

If any of the posters (Other than mysself) had found a 2000 to 2401 USA made 4 leaf spring I would have bought American.  But after two and a half months, I have seen zero.  Not one.  Like the early adopters, I had to make a call for repacements.  Mine are shot and I have 7,000 miles to roll this summer when I get there.  I did my homework.  My mistake was trying to convnce you and others that the SOB's were not what an OE2 needs.  

Add to that the dishonest representation, intentional or not, of springs to the early adopters by SOB of a spring set which was way over what had been sold is bad.  But what followed is far worse.

Having been strong armed by several owners that by my suggesting that a 2400 pound spring would be too hard a ride, only to find that they had purchased a 2750 pound springs.... and all fall in line with that's what they need.  Pure confirmation bias.  Then to say that they will be running their super springs at over 20 pounds over the Michelin E-rated tires pressure chart recommends. Hopeless.

And now trumping the discussion with the idea that I am not patriotic by not buying an American made spring is beyond my limits of civility.  As a retired USAF Colonel who served in several war zones for 30 years, and 40 year plus engineer, I will just say that... I hope your end up loving your springs.  

I suggest that this post be locked until OTT advises what they are suggesting for the fleet.  Further discussion is no longer healthy for this forum.

I'm done. 

GJ

 

 

Edited May 14 by Geronimo John
2 typos

[Mountainman198]

For those looking for alternatives made with US steel, here is the response I received from St. Louis Spring when posing the question  to them about whether they could fabricate a set of 4-leaf, 1,750 lb leaf springs for me. To this date, I am not aware of a Oliver owner who has gone this route. Very interested to hear if anyone has purchased springs from them for their Ollie and how they have worked. 
 

One other source to check may be Deaver Springs in CA

[STEVEnBETTY]

Around the year 2000 in took a broken 50 year old boat trl spring to St. Louis spring, with the request of 1 inch additional arch in the design, they made 4 of them to my exact specs, very happy with the results.

[STEVEnBETTY]

To the people freaking out over the Dexter spring. If your spring is indeed defective it will fail very quickly, I have 3 of the original springs with over 80,000 miles on them, 1 failed, it took approximately 2 hrs for me to change it, when they do fail it’s generally not a catastrophic event, the remaining spring eye and shock will hold the axle in place. You will need to replace it asap however since the remaining spring is carrying more weight. Personally I’m sticking with the original design, e trl can overnight replacement parts anywhere in the USA. I to would prefer to buy USA made parts and will go with Stl spring next time, I forgot about them when my original spring failed. 

[Ronbrink]

On 3/7/2024 at 2:13 AM, ScubaRx said:

I can personally attest to knowing of at least 10 spring failures on the 4-Leaf spring packs on both the older trailers and a few that have recently been delivered over the past year or so. All of these springs have broken in exactly the same place. Also, I have never heard of a single failure in any of the trailers that are equipped with the 5200 pound axle with the 5-Leaf spring pack. This includes all the Elites ever built and, to my knowledge, none of the Elites II’s that were originally built with the 5200 pound axles and the 5-Leaf spring packs.

 

19 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

Every spring that I have seen broken has been the fifth leaf at the point where the fourth leaf ends. The best design feature of the Alcan's is that the fourth leaf extends out to where the spring eye starts to form at the end of the fifth leaf.

Referring back to your previous comment shown above, the (Dexter)  “4-leaf spring packs” have the known failure rate.

Edited May 13 by Ronbrink

[Geronimo John]

6 hours ago, STEVEnBETTY said:

To the people freaking out over the Dexter spring. If your spring is indeed defective it will fail very quickly,

Steve:  That's been my experience for defective springs as well.  They go south quick.  From materials sciences, most often for under rated springs that get over loaded, it takes more time for the overloaded alloy grain boundaries to propagate cracks sufficient for destructive deformation to occur.  In such circumstances, the failure will generally occur at the highest point of stress concentrators, and that is usually at the end of the shorter section above the longest section.  Just as we have seen in the pictures.  

Good thoughts.  thanks GJ

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For some others:  

I have been stating that the 1750's are under rated for the load and for how we use our trailers.  By this I mean that this spring does not have enough steel to earn a higher rating. 

It is not give license to believe that the Chinese were in bed with Dexter and they fraudulently conspired to spoof the rating data to increase sales.  It only means that there is not enough steel at 11 or 12 pounds to do the job of a more stout spring that we seem to agree we need for our trailer weights and how we use them.  

GJ

 

[Geronimo John]

GJ Update:  "Properly quoted the "Every spring that I have seen broken has been the fifth leaf..." to the proper source  =  ScubaRx.   Sorry for my error. GJ

ScubaRX:  Interesting that you are just now reporting the failure of the 5 leaf springs. Here I thought you were the hatchet man for the 4-leaf springs!  

LOL.  Me thinks you have typo's in your post.  🙂

CJ 

Edited May 14 by Geronimo John
typos

[Ronbrink]

5 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

Interesting that you are just now reporting the failure of the 5 leaf springs.

LOL.  Me thinks you have two typo's in your post.  🙂

GJ

To be clear, the cited statement “Every spring that I have seen broken has been the fifth leaf at the point where the fourth leaf ends.” is that of@ScubaRx

[Geronimo John]

11 hours ago, Mountainman198 said:

they could fabricate a set of 4-leaf, 1,750 lb leaf springs for me. To this date, I am not aware of a Oliver owner who has gone this route.

So you want to keep it up.  Ok, I warned you.  So now the nice studious GJ has left the ring. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Punching back is his evil twin. My handle has been Crazy Horse  (CH) for 30 years.   

So, after 16 pages of "fun", why would any owner now order out a 4-leaf 1750 spring?  Maybe order out a 2,000-pounder or more if their needs so dictate. Maybe even think about a US made 2000 to 2400 four or if they like stiff rides a 5 leaf as that really smart nice guy suggested.   But not a 1750 of any leaves....

But to answer your bolded statement above:  Because this group is smarter than that to do so.  Now you have to agree with that one!  🙂

Crazy Horse (CH)

 

[Ronbrink]

13 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

So you want to keep it up.  Ok, I warned you.  So now the nice studious GJ has left the ring. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Punching back is his evil twin. My handle has been Crazy Horse  (CH) for 30 years.   

So, after 16 pages of "fun", why would any owner now order out a 4-leaf 1750 spring?  Maybe order out a 2,000-pounder or more if their needs so dictate. Maybe even think about a US made 2000 to 2400 four or if they like stiff rides a 5 leaf as that really smart nice guy suggested.   But not a 1750 of any leaves....

But to answer your bolded statement above:  Because this group is smarter than that to do so.  Now you have to agree with that one!  🙂

Crazy Horse (CH)

 

In recognition of 16 pages of “fun”, perhaps everyone should go back and read through the entire Post. And with that said, don’t tread on Crazy Horse!

[Geronimo John]

Yea, don't mess with that Crazy Horse guy.... I've heard he will ride a pony 20 miles just to get one of Art's Beers!  He just doesn't run out of feistiness! 

Geronimo John peeking back out from under the covers.

 

[Mountainman198]

My objective when starting this thread was to cast light onto a significant safety problem that many of us have dealt with (and/or may deal with in the future), share my chosen solution and then share the results of that solution with other E2 owners. In doing this, I hoped others would develop and share their own solutions and their observed results following implementation. Any deviation to this objective is outside the intention for this thread. Please try and stay on objective and if you have found your own solution, please provide your reasons for your choice, including analysis and specs, where you purchased, the total cost and your observations during installation and direct observations of use after implementation. There will likely be more than one viable solution to this problem and that’s fine. Providing the details on how you arrived to that solution and real-life towing following install should be of great help to the rest of us. 

Edited May 14 by Mountainman198

[Minnesota Oli]

2 hours ago, Mountainman198 said:

My objective when starting this thread was to cast light onto a significant safety problem that many of us have dealt with (and/or may deal with in the future), share my chosen solution and then share the results of that solution with other E2 owners. In doing this, I hoped others would develop and share their own solutions and their observed results following implementation. Any deviation to this objective is outside the intention for this thread. Please try and stay on objective and if you have found your own solution, please provide your reasons for your choice, including analysis and specs, where you purchased, the total cost and your observations during installation and direct observations of use after implementation. There will likely be more than one viable solution to this problem and that’s fine. Providing the details on how you arrived to that solution and real-life towing following install should be of great help to the rest of us. 

 This is what keeps me interested in the Oliver forum. I was tipped off to a problem in the making which had the potential of turning into a uncomfortable situation where I would not have had the control over time or place of the inevitable outcome. Then I am able to access multiple perspectives from fellow Oliver owners on research and solutions to the problem. This greatly speeds up the processes and helps illuminates the possibility of  over looking a flaw in ones thinking. One thing we have to keep in mind is that there are always multiple ways to resolve a problem and we may not always agree with each others solution. Thanks to all who contribute to this forum.