Made in USA leaf springs

[carnivore]

I spent all day yesterday installing Alcon leaf springs, Alcon U-bolts and new Monroe shocks on our trailer. I did the work myself and have to say that I recommend tackling it yourself if you have even average mechanical abilities and a torque wrench. I haven't had time to give it a test tow yet but am optimistic that the tow to the rally will be trouble free.

[SeaDawg]

Awesome.  We'll look forward to your experience. 

[MAX Burner]

11 hours ago, carnivore said:

I did the work myself and have to say that I recommend tackling it yourself if you have even average mechanical abilities and a torque wrench.

Concur, 100%, Carnivore!  We believe the more maintenance, upgrades, and general OTT upkeep, the better you know and keep track of its status over the many years of usage.  You'll know when shocks need an R&R drill, wet bolts needing a fresh squirt of lube, window tracks need a cleaning, a WH anode needs attention, etc., etc., etc...

We'll need to compare notes on our spring pack R&R at the rally - I'm thinking we're parked real close to y'all.  We'll be found in A-6.

Safe travels, All!  Cheers!

[connor77]

On 4/26/2024 at 1:12 PM, connor77 said:

I have had my leaf springs replaced with the Alcan's and will soon share my feedback.  My short ride home from my mechanic's place didn't tell me much but we'll head south soon for the rally and I'll report while we're on our way down.

I'm planning to run my tires at 48 PSI.  Will do as so many others have suggested and re-torque u-bolts regularly.

5/9/24 Update

Have traveled just over 1k miles with the new leaf springs and, so far, so good.  Like others have mentioned, there is less side to side movement which is nice.  Having lowered our tire pressure seems to have tempered the stiffness and the ride softened up a bit at around 500 miles. 

I re-torqued u-bolt nuts at 390 miles and 1,020 miles and feel like if I do this one more time they should be good.  At 1,020 miles only one nut needed about a half turn.  All the others needed just a quarter turn or thereabouts. 

After having traveled for 1k miles I no longer have concerns about them being overrated and too stiff. 

Special thanks to Mountainman198 for starting this thread and for all those that have contributed to it. 

[ScubaRx]

The Outlaw Oliver  now has 4 new five leaf Alcan Springs, 4 new Monroe 555001 Shocks and 4 new Hercules H-901 Commercial Light Truck tires. Tali and I installed the springs and shocks earlier this week and the new tires went on yesterday. Our next trip will likely be 10K miles over the next three months or so. I believe we are good to go now.

We will leave Monday for the Rally in AL, then on to the Rally in ME and from there to CO for a few weeks. We hope to hit a few more National Park Units. As of December 2023, there are 429 official units of the National Park System, We've visited almost 300 so far.

Edited May 11 by ScubaRx

[ScubaRx]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:05 PM, Geronimo John said:

All of a sudden, the Dexter 2400 pounders don't seem so radical after all.   

If proven to be the case, then maybe a rethink of running your tires at 40 or 50 PSI is in order.  Likely maybe 28 PSI????

But the great news is that those ALCAN's are great springs and will certainly last ten life times. Maybe 100 life times!  

Steve, please tell us that your post was just a joke!   Please.

My condolences to those "early adopters".

GJ

 

I was thrilled with the news that they were actually rated at 2750 pounds. I had abandoned the idea of buying them if they were only rated at 2000-2400 pounds. I will continue to run 50 psi in my tires. With a rating of only 10.4K pounds the axles are now the weakest link in our entire suspension/wheel/tire system.

Edited May 11 by ScubaRx

[MAX Burner]

On 5/10/2024 at 12:29 AM, ScubaRx said:

The Outlaw Oliver  now has 4 new five leaf Alcan Springs, 4 new Monroe 555001 Shocks

So, here's an interesting data point...  While installing the 5.2k# Dexter Nev-R-Lubes yesterday, we discovered all but one of the Monroe 550001 Shocks (installed new 11APR23) were INOP.  What a bummer.  Fortunately, "DBo" had 4 new-in-the-box Monroe's which he gave me after buttoning everything up on the axle job...  I'll be installing them today at Mouse Tail Landing SP on the TN River in middle TN.

The point being, for those owners that R&R'd shocks last APR/MAY timeframe, strongly suggest removing that upper nut and testing each one.  Doesn't take long, and just for the peace of mind - well worth the effort.  We may have bought a bad lot of Monroe's last year, but I'm thinking they should have lasted more than the 14,000+ miles we've logged since installing them!

Roll-On, regardless...

 

Edited Sunday at 01:26 PM by MAX Burner
typo

[Geronimo John]

Steve:

You are set to fall from a 3th floor to the concrete ground. You can choose between wearing multiple layers Bubble Wrap or Alloy Steel? 

  or this:  

 Conclusion:  In many instances, more steel is the wrong answer. 

 So far, it appears that we, Dexter Techs, and ALCAN Techs all seem to agree on is that the OEM 1750-pound 4 leaf springs were not strong enough to haul the OE2’s at the weights and uses we today are requiring.  

 I continue to believe that increasing the load capacity to 2400-pound rated 4 leaf is the better solution for the OE2 fleet.  Why?  Because I feel that a 37% increase in a 4-leaf spring capacity (as compared to OEM 1750) is sufficient capacity and the ride of a 4-leaf spring is less harsh than the 5-leaf option. 

 On the other hand, the 2750-pound rated 5 leaf springs would be a 1,000-pound increase per spring, a 57% increase in rating.  That much spring and being a 5-leaf will result in too harsh a ride for the OE2.  It likely will exasperate frame weld failures, as well as other ride related issues.

 So, we agree to disagree.  When OTT decides to wade in on this discussion remains to be seen.  But likely it will be evident in follow on year’s products.   

GJ

 

Edited May 10 by Geronimo John
Typo

[Geronimo John]

4 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

I'm thinking they should have lasted more than the 14,000+ miles we've logged since installing them!

4 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

 Fortunately, "DBo" had 4 new-in-the-box Monroe's

Very fortunate catch!  I hope that you are correct in that the Monroe's were defective.  I highly recommend checking the new ones in 10,000 miles to see if they are OK.  If yes, SUPER. 

[jd1923]

6 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

So, here's an interesting data point...  While installing the 5.2k# Dexter Nev-R-Lubes yesterday, we discovered all but one of the Monroe 500001 Shocks (installed new 11APR23) were INOP.  What a bummer.  Fortunately, "DBo" had 4 new-in-the-box Monroe's which he gave me after buttoning everything up on the axle job...  I'll be installing them today at Mouse Tail Landing SP on the TN River in middle TN.

The point being, for those owners that R&R'd shocks last APR/MAY timeframe, strongly suggest removing that upper nut and testing each one.  Doesn't take long, and just for the peace of mind - well worth the effort.  We may have bought a bad lot of Monroe's last year, but I'm thinking they should have lasted more than the 14,000+ miles we've logged since installing them! Roll-On, regardless...

The new leaf springs with higher weight rating may be easier on the shocks. Your axles will also be more solid, keeping squarely on the ground more often. The sway of the body with the lighter springs certainly put more sway and stress on the shocks.

There was a suggestion earlier for perhaps a better replacement brand (or they could be the same part rebranded). Anybody getting the new brand should show a side-by-side picture of the two. If the new brand has the same casting marks, it's the same manufacturer.

[rideandfly]

1 hour ago, jd1923 said:

The new leaf springs with higher weight rating may be easier on the shocks. Your axles will also be more solid, keeping squarely on the ground more often. The sway of the body with the lighter springs certainly put more sway and stress on the shocks.

There was a suggestion earlier for perhaps a better replacement brand (or they could be the same part rebranded). Anybody getting the new brand should show a side-by-side picture of the two. If the new brand has the same casting marks, it's the same manufacturer.

John

Going to install Bulldog shocks on Ollie next week. Will do on the side by side comparison photo, both shocks are built in China, Monroe and Bulldog shocks.

https://www.4statetrucks.com/bulldog-hd-shock-absorber-replaces-555001-19-050000007

Bill

Edited May 10 by rideandfly

[jd1923]

6 minutes ago, rideandfly said:

John

Going to install Bulldog shocks on Ollie next week. Will do on the side by side comparison photo, both shocks are built in China, Monroe and Bulldog shocks.

https://www.4statetrucks.com/bulldog-hd-shock-absorber-replaces-555001-19-050000007

Bill

Thanks Bill, I'm certain many of us would like to see this. You'll know as soon as you pull one Monroe if they are the same, or something new, hopefully better. Too bad with heavier replacement springs we cannot source a replacement shock with the same ends, same stroke but larger diameter cylinders and pistons.

When I replaced mine last year (same Monroes but in black), the old yellow ones where all flat, meaning that when compressed they would not return on their own. Service receipts from prior owners also show mine were replaced once. I guess a few years back they still painted them yellow.

[MAX Burner]

2 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I guess a few years back they still painted them yellow.

Yeah, the one's I got from DBo are the older yellow ones.  But hey, I'm checking those bad boys every 2,500 miles just to see how they're behaving.  Looking forward to hearing from @rideandfly about the Bulldogs...

Good point, JD, about the heavier springs taking more load off the shocks - these may work OK after all, we'll see when the jury comes back...

[2008RN]

5 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Thanks Bill, I'm certain many of us would like to see this. You'll know as soon as you pull one Monroe if they are the same, or something new, hopefully better. Too bad with heavier replacement springs we cannot source a replacement shock with the same ends, same stroke but larger diameter cylinders and pistons.

When I was looking for replacements for the 555001, I did find a Monroe 555025 RV shock which had a higher rating. The only problem was the minimal compression length was 3/4 of and inch longer and I did not know if it would still work in our application so I opted for the Bull Dog 555001 replacement instead.

I had found on another site where someone had used the 555025 to replace a 555001 without problems, but it was not for an Oliver

Edited May 11 by 2008RN

[Geronimo John]

One lesson to be learned is the impact of a strong 5 stack spring vs. the far more compliant 4 leaf.  Certainly the strong stack will transmit forces to the trailer frame much more than a wimpy 4 stack.  With stronger axles the same effect will take place.  So, with super spring and super axles, super shocks will likely be needed to contain those forces.  

To visualize, consider the ride of a F-150 vs. a F-350 dual axle, both unloaded.  Put a dozen eggs in the bed of a F-150 and a F-350.  Likely the eggs in the F-350 will be scrambled for you.  Ditto with Ollie and stiff suspensions.  This is likely why Mr. Oliver went with the 4 leaf.  

Suspension compliancy when hitting obstructions is a way for the energy to be ameliorated.  The parts that do this are the tires, springs. EZ Flex, and shock "Team".  Reduce the compliance by having 50 PSI tires, strong springs and axles.... and the extra energy is transmitted to the load.  Remember you WANT to have the axle moving up and down within the range of our suspension system clearance ... and for our OTT's that is not a lot of headroom.....

Knowing the amount of impact our rigs can handle and not imprint witness marks on the frame for both the cases is really important.  Also to understand that the damping(I.E. energy to be absorbed) that is necessary to slow down and stop the  rebounding of a heavier suspension is substantially greater than to do so with a lighter one.   It will be interesting to see how all this plays out with this grand experiment in suspension design.

I recommend that you start out using the Michelin Tire Pressure Table (Sub 30 PSI if I recall for our weights) and then move up to higher tire pressures as you gain experience with how the new design will perform.  Go slow and safe and observe performance before trying it out at hammer down.  I know I will be in July when I get my rig upgraded.

GJ    

[ScubaRx]

14 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Steve:

You are set to fall from a 3th floor to the concrete ground. You can choose between wearing multiple layers Bubble Wrap or Alloy Steel? 

Conclusion:  In many instances, more steel is the wrong answer. 

 So far, it appears that we, Dexter Techs, and ALCAN Techs all seem to agree on is that the OEM 1750-pound 4 leaf springs were not strong enough to haul the OE2’s at the weights and uses we today are requiring.  

 I continue to believe that increasing the load capacity to 2400-pound rated 4 leaf is the better solution for the OE2 fleet.  Why?  Because I feel that a 37% increase in a 4-leaf spring capacity (as compared to OEM 1750) is sufficient capacity and the ride of a 4-leaf spring is less harsh than the 5-leaf option. 

 On the other hand, the 2750-pound rated 5 leaf springs would be a 1,000-pound increase per spring, a 57% increase in rating.  That much spring and being a 5-leaf will result in too harsh a ride for the OE2.  It likely will exasperate frame weld failures, as well as other ride related issues.

 So, we agree to disagree.  When OTT decides to wade in on this discussion remains to be seen.  But likely it will be evident in follow on year’s products.   

GJ

 

OK, we can agree to disagree.

All I can say is our 2014 trailer is the first EII sold after the 5 year hiatus. Fully loaded and ready to camp it has always weighed more than 7000 pounds. It has been on the road for over 100,000 miles most of it on tires set at 80psi. It has had five-leaf 5200 pound spring packs and 5200 pound axles since it was built over 10 years ago. A year or so into its life I switched to twelve inch disk brakes.

Admittedly, nobody rides back there so I can't attest to what it might feel like. But, during the past decade the trailer has never complained and I've not seen any evidence of all this devastation that is predicted to happen. No broken drawers, no blinds constantly falling off while under way, no cabinet doors coming open, nothing. Apparently, in my case at least, Jim Oliver was correct when he recommended the heavier duty suspension for our trailer.

I have been preaching that the four-leaf OEM springs are way under rated for these trailers for years and have had more than one discussion with Oliver about it. They did move forward and make the 5200 pound axles standard, but I think that was just to be able to give folks the Nev-R-Lube (not Nev-R-Fail) hubs that many had asked for. Whether they follow with an upgrade to the springs, only time will tell.

Whether owners decide to upgrade their springs is up to them. I predict no slow down in the number of springs that will eventually fail. And, I promise when it happens, it will never be in a convenient place. At least buy some cheap springs to carry as spares against the possibility.

In the past week we have gotten new springs, shocks, and tires. I'm happy with my decisions.

And, by the way, only a fool would pick a suit of armor to fall three stories in. Seriously though, I see the point you were trying to make.

Edited May 11 by ScubaRx

[MAX Burner]

6 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

Admittedly, nobody rides back there so I can't attest to what it might feel like.

As mentioned in an earlier rant, we did the "ride-along" test before and after replacing the spring packs...  Over a 3+mile course over improved but rutty country roads, there was no "felt" difference at speeds up to 25mph, before/after.  Higher speeds may show different results.  

Riding back there wasn't anything like the difference riding in our 2016 (stock) RAM 3500 and our 2022 (almost stock) TUNDRA.  Huge difference between the two.  Although the RAM rode like a "buckboard" (I don't think it would scramble eggs) but the TUNDRA rides like a car, soft yet sure footed.  Actually, I was somewhat impressed how stiff the ride felt before changing spring packs.

DBo (Dusten Bowden, an 18-yr OTT Veteran) has concluded that OTTs are way under sprung for their construction.  JFTR: He was very impressed with the Alcan upgrade and would recommend them for any owner, especially for those that have experienced 4-pack spring failure - as its a perfect time for upgrading.  Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe Mr. Oliver insisted on 5-packs and 5.2k# axles on both his rigs...

FYI and as it may be known, OTT is no longer installing 3.5k# axles on their new LE2 rigs (LE1's have alway had 5.2k# Dexters) - so, like Steve mentioned above, perhaps 5-packs may come in the future.  We believe that will be an overall improvement to what we consider an already well engineered product.

At the end of the day, the "spring-pack/axle" discussion boils down to individual camping style and personal preference, IMO.  The probability of us breaking one or more of our previous 4-pack leaf springs, I'm sure, is a low one.  However, I know how we roll - I'm the guy that would break a Chinese 4-pack halfway out on the 14-mile washboard road to Chaco Canyon or on the way to "Moving Rocks" near Furnace Springs, Death Valley.  I'd have a spare 4-pack with me, of course - but another one would break on me on the way back after swapping!  The discussion does not have a "go/no-go" solution set - it's an "it depends" solution, IMO.

Like @Patriot sez, "Roll-ON", regardless...

Cheers, All!
 

[jd1923]

12 hours ago, 2008RN said:

When I was looking for replacements for the 555001, I did find a Monroe 555025 RV shock which had a higher rating. The only problem was the minimal compression length was 3/4 of and inch longer and I did not know if it would still work in our application so I opted for the Bull Dog 555001 replacement instead.

I had found on another site where someone had used the 555025 to replace a 555001 without problems, but it was not for an Oliver

This is certainly worth taking another look, for those upgrading to the Alcan springs. +3/4" would likely fit well, given the Alcan leaf springs make the trailer sit a little higher and compress less for the same load. I had written to @MAX Burner in an earlier post to measure the before and after in spring height. Not sure if Art or others who have upgraded have made this measurement.

@2008RN could you please supply a link to the specs for these shocks? I spent a few minutes searching and all i could find was installation instructions for Monroe shocks by part number.

I would also like to hear what @ScubaRx thinks of adding a stiffer shock, 3/4" longer.

[MAX Burner]

The height of the trailer after new spring pack installed was approx 5/8" higher.  The hull and frame assy doesn't squat down as much with the heavier springs. 

The length of the 3/4" longer shocks wouldn't make any difference regardless of what spring packs are installed.  They need to be fully compressed to get into the mountings anyway - just adjust the nose up/down to get the correct clearance.

JFTR:  Finished up with the "in situ" shock R&R drill at Primitive Campsite #8 at the Mousetail SP on the TN River just now -- and Casablanca is back to that "yellow" looking running gear.  The only mod to the drill was using fresh nylocs instead of the nuts provided (a bit of overkill, but D's idea - "happy wife....):

New axles, springs, fresh shocks, newer Cooper tires - isn't it a good feeling?  Or an obsession??? 

Thoughts?

Edited May 11 by MAX Burner
...added clarifying info

[Geronimo John]

10 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

Whether owners decide to upgrade their springs is up to them. I predict no slow down in the number of springs that will eventually fail. And, I promise when it happens, it will never be in a convenient place. At least buy some cheap springs to carry as spares against the possibility.

Of course.  Murphy's Law rules.

4 hours ago, MAX Burner said:

DBo (Dusten Bowden, an 18-yr OTT Veteran) has concluded that OTTs are way under sprung for their construction.

Yes we can add him to the long list of us that have previously come to that conclusion.  Including two Dexter Tech's.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The distinction that many are making is thinking that 4 pack spring sets are by definition always bad, and the 5 packs are good.  Also that everything made in China is bad and everything made in USA is always good.  Hopefully we can also agree that these logic lines are full of holes.  

What we do KNOW is that the spring sets rated at 1,750 pound rating of the OTT OEM OE2 fleet for many years are failing as a result of the spring not being sufficiently rated to the use.  Not that it is always crap because it was made in China or that it is a 4-leaf spring.  Now some of them may well have been.  But Dexter has used those springs in thousands of applications just fine.  But for our OE2's, they are failing because they are under rated 1,750 pound springs.  Not because they are Chinese or 4 leaf.  

I think that the vast majority of respondents to this topic agree that a stronger spring is needed for the OE2 fleet.  And that the path to take for their OE2's can be very owner specific.  I believe that a higher rated more compliant 4 pack may work just fine for our and likely for the fleet use.  As such, I chose to purchase the Dexter 2400 pound rated 4-leaf.  But what I think, and what other specific owners think is best for their specific use is only relevant to the specific use.  But that does not necessarily make it suitable for general fleet use in my opinion.

But OTT as the OEM of future OE2's will be looking at the issue from a fleet perspective.  It will be interesting to see what they feel is best for overall fleet operations. 

I think we can agree that it likely will not be the 1,750 pound rated 4 leaf spring set. 

But will it be a 2750 pound 5 leaf? I do not think it will be.  So, I will wager a beer to any of the above owners that have gone with the ALCON spring set that that choice will not be what OTT goes with for the future fleet as the standard spring set.  Want to take my wager, list you names below in the next 48 hours.

GJ

 

 

[Minnesota Oli]

I been following this topic and it got me to look at my springs and sure enough 1,750 pound four leaf springs were failing. I was leaning to ALCAN five leaf for replacement but when Geromimo John came up with the Dexter 2400 pound rated 4-leaf I decided that would be a better fit. My thinking is keep the ride as soft as I can but have springs  strong enough not to distort them from the load that the Oliver puts on them. So this bumps the 7000 pound rating to 9600 pound rating and I think this should be sufficient for them to carry the load with out distorting the springs. I included a pic of the 2400# spring next to the worst 1750# spring.

This is the differences in thickness of the leafs.

 

The individual leafs are longer.

 

I didn't think to measure the height before I started the job but when I had one side installed I measured from side to side and there was 1-1/2 inches difference at the wheel wells.

[2008RN]

7 hours ago, jd1923 said:

 

@2008RN could you please supply a link to the specs for these shocks? I spent a few minutes searching and all i could find was installation instructions for Monroe shocks by part number.

There is not a lot of in depth information on the 555025 shocks, but here is a link for the 555025

https://www.shockwarehouse.com/products/monroe-555025-gasmagnum

In my searching I found someone that had replaced the 555001 with a Bilsteins 24-064194, B6 series shock.  The following link talks about the installation, and problems that were overcome. It is an interesting read. I searched for the 24-064194 and it appears that Bilstein no longer makes this shock, no one seems to have them available. The down side if you can find them they are very pricey

https://heartlandowners.org/threads/bighorn-3260el-shocks.59777/

 

[Mountainman198]

4 hours ago, Minnesota Oli said:

I been following this topic and it got me to look at my springs and sure enough 1,750 pound four leaf springs were failing. I was leaning to ALCAN five leaf for replacement but when Geromimo John came up with the Dexter 2400 pound rated 4-leaf I decided that would be a better fit. My thinking is keep the ride as soft as I can but have springs  strong enough not to distort them from the load that the Oliver puts on them. So this bumps the 7000 pound rating to 9600 pound rating and I think this should be sufficient for them to carry the load with out distorting the springs. I included a pic of the 2400# spring next to the worst 1750# spring.

This is the differences in thickness of the leafs.

 

The individual leafs are longer.

 

I didn't think to measure the height before I started the job but when I had one side installed I measured from side to side and there was 1-1/2 inches difference at the wheel wells.

Thanks for sharing. Please let us know how the ride is after you have some miles on them. I believe you will be the first to test the 2,400lb springs as a full set of four. Always good to have proven alternatives.  

Edited May 12 by Mountainman198

[hobo]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:41 AM, 2008RN said:

I also have the D35 Label.   Does that mean that I should not update to the Alcan 2,000# springs.  I run between 6,300 and 6,500 on the scales. I would not mind that little extra stiffness.  I replaced the original Monroe shocks this winter (3 were shot with 8,000 miles on the Oli) with Bulldog HD shocks. I haven't had a chance to take her out on the rougher windy 2 lane roads yet.  Darn, I was really hoping that I was going to have the D52 axles!

Can you provide the specifics on the Bulldog HD shocks please?

Thanks, (2 HOBOS) Hull 414

[rich.dev]

21 minutes ago, hobo said:

Can you provide the specifics on the Bulldog HD shocks please?

Thanks, (2 HOBOS) Hull 414

I think this what you're looking for.
https://www.4statetrucks.com/bulldog-hd-shock-absorber-replaces-555001-19-050000007